Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

[Ludicus]

You might want to mention in what context he called them that... In this case it is due to Russians beheading POWs. Putting them into the same camp as ISIS in barbarity.

The context is the same. He said the "Russians", with Kiv saying "Russia is worse than ISIS”.
Its a barbaric act, no doubt about that- but let's keep in mind that both sides committed barbaric acts: Moscow and Kiev have repeatedly accused each other of killing prisoners and a number of videos alleging to show POW killings have made the rounds on the internet over the past year. Podolyak, warned against "any attempts to find a compromise with the terrorists".Russia had to be isolated from "the rest of the world”, he said. And Zelensky concludes:" we (the world) must act now". Kuleba wrote:"It’s absurd that Russia, which is worse than ISIS, is presiding over the UNSC": Ukraine prisoner beheading video sparks fury at Russia
There is an obvious political exploitation.

But the documents have been steadily appearing on several internet platforms, with some circulating for weeks or even months. It seems to me that L.A. is about to be fired from his job. In fact, analog data aren’t going away anytime soon; digital business is a bad idea when it comes to state secrets. How to keep war secrets safe for just a few bucks, L.Austin?

My post was ironic. Well, some conservatives (Trumpists) react with surprise and astonishment. (Marjorie Green, Kash Patel, etc.)
Jack Teixeira, a scapegoat or hero? | Political Talk
But in fact, Patel's question seems pertinent.

[conon394]

Ok, and yet imo it isn't "whataboutism" when it is about the entirely different response to a concurrent invasion, when it is done by a pal of US; namely the medieval Saudi despotate.
I view it as a very legitimate issue to bring up, even if only in one or two posts in a thread with thousands of posts

Antaeus makes some good points I might add. The EU is pals with the house of Saud (and the other gulf repressive monarchies) just as much as the US

https://agsiw.org/more-arms-less-inf...ilitarization/

Also Pretty sure the EU is not going to rock the boat either now when it needs LNG...

[Ludicus]

The EU is pals with the house of Saud (and the other gulf repressive monarchies) just as much as the US

Obviously. But there is a difference...EU welcomes Saudi Arabia, Iran decision to resume to resume diplomatic ties after officials of the two countries met in China.

The EU's key priorities in the Middle East are to achieve deescalation of tensions and promote peace and stability, Stano stressed.

Stano made a good point here.
Biden team was focused in normalizing Saudi-Israeli relations,that's the difference.The normalization agreement between Iran and the Saudis, signed a few days ago-because China's role- will certainly have some positive repercussions in the middle east. But not for Israel, walking toward isolation.
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EU's von der Leyen is in the running to be new NATO head

Just confirmed for me what I already knew.She will get the job she most wanted. I hope someone who thinks a little more about the interests of Europe will take her place, but in the current situation, I have my doubts. My kingdom for a Gaullist- or something like that…someone who thinks that Europe must shape its own destiny. Macron is Gaullist, ergo is a not a good choice. Use google translate: “Nous ne voulons pas d’intégration militaire, politique, économique, monétaire, avec les Américains, quoique nous voulions rester leurs amis.” Conversation de Gaulle-Kiesinger, 1967 - Charles de Gaulle, Anti-Hegemonic Discourse

[Alastor]

Antaeus makes some good points I might add. The EU is pals with the house of Saud (and the other gulf repressive monarchies) just as much as the US

https://agsiw.org/more-arms-less-inf...ilitarization/

Also Pretty sure the EU is not going to rock the boat either now when it needs LNG...

Nobody said that the hypocrites-in-chief (the US) have a monopoly on hypocrisy. Of course our politicians here in the EU are engaging in hypocrisy. Not sure what your argument here is?

The EU, unlike the US that is generally energy independent, relies on imports for its energy. Now that we have lost Russia, thanks to the US, we have little choice but to align further with despotic ME regimes. Personally, between Russia and Saudi Arabia, I'd pick Russia. But that's not a choice the US would allow us to make, so here we are now.

Finally, we need to understand a thing or two about whataboutism and how it's used. If the argument goes Y is accusing X of doing bad stuff and then X says Y also did that bad stuff therefore what X is doing is acceptable, that is a very weak argument. If the argument goes Y is accusing X of doing bad stuff and then some people within Y say but we did the same, we should clean our house first and then start a crusade against X for doing what we did. That's a different story, that is an internal criticism and a call for self-reflection, instead of an attempt to justify the act of X. The act of X remains undefended.
*Replace X for Russia and Y for the west and you have the current situation.

[Mithradates]

Its a barbaric act, no doubt about that- but let's keep in mind that both sides committed barbaric acts

No matter how much you would like to suggest, they are not comparable. Show me something like Bucha or the Mariupol Theater bombing from the Ukrainians.

[Alastor]

No matter how much you would like to suggest, they are not comparable. Show me something like Bucha or the Mariupol Theater bombing from the Ukrainians.

I have seen reports that say Ukrainians have been harvesting organs from Russian POWs. That's quite equally barbaric I'd say. Of course I can't show you "reliable" sources, that is Ukraine-friendly ones, claiming that. For obvious reasons. Whatever the case, war is an ugly business and there are no good guys in a war. That should be self-evident.

[Mithradates]

I have seen reports that say Ukrainians have been harvesting organs from Russian POWs. That's quite equally barbaric I'd say. Of course I can't show you "reliable" sources, that is Ukraine-friendly ones, claiming that. For obvious reasons. Whatever the case, war is an ugly business and there are no good guys in a war. That should be self-evident.

Tales vs hard evidence.

[Alastor]

Tales vs hard evidence.

There is no "hard evidence". That's the point. The lines have been drawn and our media is nowhere near as impartial as we like to pretend. What has happened will probably take years before we know for sure, if we ever do. What we can be certain of, the one truism is what i already stated, war is an ugly business and there are no good guys in a war.

[Mithradates]

But there is, Bucha is a well documented Russian war crime.

[Alastor]

But there is, Bucha is a well documented Russian war crime.

Well documented by whom? The Ukrainians and their western backers? Yeah, they have no dog in this race, they absolutely would have no reason to ever lie to you... oh wait, of course they do.

Everything we know, everything, is filtered and fed to us by media and organisations that have certain interests. This is a war and we have picked a side. The filter's bias is evident. I do hope that once there is some distance between us and current events this will lessen and we'll get to know sth closer to the truth. I'm not holding my breath though. Either way, some skepticism would serve well.

[Mithradates]

Well, somebody killed those civilians and the video evidence points to the Russians.

How much easier it was to make propaganda back in the days when everyone didn't have a video camera in their phone/surveillance camera on their house.

[Alastor]

Well, somebody killed those civilians and the video evidence points to the Russians.

How much easier it was to make propaganda back in the days when everyone didn't have a video camera in their phone/surveillance camera on their house.

Oh? We have video evidence of the actual shootings? No we don't. Even if we did, we wouldn't necessarily have all the context anyway, but we don't even have that. What do we have instead? Video evidence of a bunch of dead bodies and a lot of interpretations. So I ask again, whose interpretations?

Yes, how much easier it was to make propaganda back in the day, before the internet, psyops and mass media... oh wait.

[Mithradates]

Oh? We have video evidence of the actual shootings? No we don't. Even if we did, we wouldn't necessarily have all the context anyway, but we don't even have that. What do we have instead? Video evidence of a bunch of dead bodies and a lot of interpretations. So I ask again, whose interpretations?

Yes, how much easier it was to make propaganda back in the day, before the internet, psyops and mass media... oh wait.

Um, YES, we have video evidence of the actual shootings, watch the video.

[Alastor]

Um, YES, we have video evidence of the actual shootings, watch the video.

I skimmed through the video, I didn't fully watch because I'm not interested. What I skimmed though was a lot of montage, a lot of allegations and a lot of interpretation. No guarantees it's the whole story. Indeed how could there be one. I did speak about context and context is important.

Whatever the case, the point is not to dispute Bucha. The Russians are not the good guys, there are no good guys. The point I'm disputing is that the New York Times (and other such "impartial" news sources we rely on for information) would be interested in investigating alleged Ukrainian atrocities with the same fervor. They wouldn't be. Bringing us back to my truism from before.

[Coughdrop addict]

I have seen reports that say Ukrainians have been harvesting organs from Russian POWs.

Source: Trust me bro, Russia stronk.

It's very easy to make a claim, offer no evidence, and say that the reason there is no evidence is that a conspiracy is suppressing it.

Watch, I'll do it right now: Putin is a pedophile who openly rapes children, but you won't hear about it in your Kremlin-owned sources. Russian stormtroopers are required to kill and eat at least one child a day as an offering to Putin, I have no evidence of this because it's all been covered up. Putin has expressed admiration for Hitler and announced that his eventual goal is the complete genocide of all Jews in the world, but it's being kept from you by a nebulous group of powerful people who just do evil for no reason.

[Alastor]

Source: Trust me bro, Russia stronk.

Actually the source is Russian news sources. But of course those are all misinformation peddlers, unlike our totally and completely impartial western sources, or for that matter the Ukrainian ones which are effectively the Bible.

This isn't a conspiracy, it's simple rational thinking. I'll make it even simpler, if you don't believe that our media has bias and can be partial, if you don't believe that the Ukrainians can lie, if you don't believe that after having spent billions propping the Ukrainians up our governments have every reason to help them lie, then I have a bridge to sell you.

[Coughdrop addict]

Actually the source is Russian news sources. But of course those are all misinformation peddlers, unlike our totally and completely impartial western sources, of for that matter the Ukrainian ones which are effectively the Bible.

This isn't a conspiracy, it's simple rational thinking. I'll make it simple, if you don't believe that our media has bias and can be partial, if you don't believe that the Ukrainians can lie, if you don't believe that after having spent billions propping the Ukrainians up our governments have every reason to help them lie, then I have a bridge to sell you.

You appear unfamiliar with how evidence works. You have made the claim that western and Ukrainian news sources are peddling lies and covering up rampant war crimes by Ukrainians against Russians. Now you need to back that up with evidence of your own, or admit the only reason you believe so is your pro-Kremlin bias.

[Alastor]

@Coughdrop addict
And you appear unfamiliar with how logic and rational thought works, but ok I see how it is, in that case here you go:

Just $10k, satisfaction guaranteed. Let me know where I can send the payment information.

[Mithradates]

I skimmed through the video, I didn't fully watch because I'm not interested. What I skimmed though was a lot of montage, a lot of allegations and a lot of interpretation. No guarantees it's the whole story. Indeed how could there be one. I did speak about context and context is important.

- There is no evidence.
- Yes, there is.
- I didn't fully watch because I'm not interested.
- Okay lol

Also I would love to hear in what context is it okay to shoot random civilians.

Whatever the case, the point is not to dispute Bucha. The Russians are not the good guys, there are no good guys. The point I'm disputing is that the New York Times (and other such "impartial" news sources we rely on for information) would be interested in investigating alleged Ukrainian atrocities with the same fervor. They wouldn't be. Bringing us back to my truism from before.

New York Times:

Videos Suggest Captive Russian Soldiers Were Killed at Close Range

Videos circulating online and reported on by Russian state media have raised questions about whether Ukrainian soldiers committed a war crime.

[Alastor]

- There is no evidence.
- Yes, there is.
- I didn't fully watch because I'm not interested.
- Okay lol

Also I would love to hear in what context is it okay to shoot random civilians.

And how exactly is this video disproving the point I was making? Did I claim the Russians are the good guys? No. Did I claim Bucha didn't happen? No. What I said is that the news we are getting is filtered, biased. What I said is we don't get the whole story. What I disputed was that our media would show the same fervour in investigating allegations of Ukrainian atrocities that they show when investigating Russian ones. The rationale behind this is simple, they are the enemy, since when is the enemy treated fairly? But as usual you and the point are on parallel trajectories.

-New York Times:

Videos Suggest Captive Russian Soldiers Were Killed at Close Range

Oh yes, one report congrats, you have restored my faith on the impartiality of NYT now. Look at all that fervour. Maybe you are also interested in that bridge, if so no worries, I can sell it to you too.