Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

**StarDreamer** · February 28, 2023, 05:33 AM

Originally Posted by Kyriakos

Google doesn't present any major news site reporting on this, which is pretty sad given Chomsky is an important writer and thinker.
The main points seem to be that Russia can't allow even more nato presence in its border. Even in the best of times diplomatically (eg under Gorbachev), Russia was operating under the supposedly mutual understanding that northern/central european nato would not expand to the east of Germany.

Ah Chopstick the favourite thinker for tankies, another old fool heralded as a "great" thinker and writer purely due to his anti-western attitudes. I don't know how many times these same old fools are paraded around in this thread, yet somehow they are so "ignored". I don't generally consider genocide deniers as great thinkers.

**Kyriakos** · February 28, 2023, 06:05 AM

Sorry, but that is the illiterate view on Chomsky. He was an important linguist, not some random pundit who supports x side with paper-thin arguments.

**StarDreamer** · February 28, 2023, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by Kyriakos

Sorry, but that is the illiterate view on Chomsky. He was an important linguist, not some random pundit who supports x side with paper-thin arguments.

What does being a formerly important linquist have to do with politics? In the field of politics he is just some random pundit with wafer-thin arguments. Someone might be a world renowned mathematician, doesn't mean I want that dude doing surgery on me.

**conon394** · February 28, 2023, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by Kyriakos

Sorry, but that is the illiterate view on Chomsky. He was an important linguist, not some random pundit who supports x side with paper-thin arguments.

He was an important linguist but he is also a epic tankie. Again there is a reason you should retire at 65

Google doesn't present any major news site reporting on this, which is pretty sad given Chomsky is an important writer and thinker.
The main points seem to be that Russia can't allow even more nato presence in its border. Even in the best of times diplomatically (eg under Gorbachev), Russia was operating under the supposedly mutual understanding that northern/central european nato would not expand to the east of Germany.

Confusing Russia and USSR there they are two different things. Guess the people in Central and Eastern Europe had a different understanding. Chomsky again may have once been a good linguist his political views are Junior high level US bad and imperialist all the time thus any US policy bad thus any push back to US policy by anyone good.

---------------

Someone might be a world renowned mathematician, doesn't mean I want that dude doing surgery on me.

Again I think its a retirement thing. He had his day protesting Vietnam and highlighting what a mess the uUS made of Central America (and if hf was still talking about that and arguing we need to let central American refugees since the spent the entire cold f-ing up central America I be fine with the guy - the US and it people like to forget that way to much). But just because the US did bad thinks does not sanctify China or Russia or the North Vietnam or remove agency from countries interacting with the the US.

**saamohod** · February 28, 2023, 06:47 AM

@Kyriakos

Ukraine must surrender and return to being Russia's vassal because some tankie who used to be an important linguist says so.

Every reasoning of Chomsky isn't based upon whether something is right or wrong, but whether it is pro-American or anti-American. Invasion of Iraq bad, the aggressor is to blame. Invasion of Ukraine good, the victim is to blame.

**conon394** · February 28, 2023, 07:00 AM

Every reasoning of Chomsky isn't based upon whether something is right or wrong, but whether it is pro-American or anti-American. Invasion of Iraq bad, the aggressor is to blame. Invasion of Ukraine good, the victim is to blame.

Ahh see got that a little off

Is the US doing the policy - bad

Anyone else and particularly if it is the US opposed - good

You see it is more general

**Kyriakos** · February 28, 2023, 07:03 AM

Well fwiw, Chomsky had those views since before he was old

**conon394** · February 28, 2023, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by Kyriakos

Well fwiw, Chomsky had those views since before he was old

And sometimes he was right but more often wrong he has his blinders on and for quite some time I agree. But like a lot old white guys settled into glory days mode just because I was sorta correct on Nam and central America back in the day and I am smart people tell me so I can interpret all US policy that way and I am right (err left or so far left I'm right - just you remember wiper snapper the US has agency and those corrupt third world post colonial counties or autocrats don't that the US made them do it and no I never sat about my whole life as a tenured professor at MIT sucking off the US tit and doing paid speaking tours I was with Che Guevara in Bolivia living hard - well no I was not)

**StarDreamer** · February 28, 2023, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by conon394

Again I think its a retirement thing. He had his day protesting Vietnam and highlighting what a mess the uUS made of Central America (and if hf was still talking about that and arguing we need to let central American refugees since the spent the entire cold f-ing up central America I be fine with the guy - the US and it people like to forget that way to much). But just because the US did bad thinks does not sanctify China or Russia or the North Vietnam or remove agency from countries interacting with the the US.

Well it is a retirement thing also. My point was however that his status as a linguist has

all do with international politics, in that field his views are just that, one man's uneducated views. Based on the quite simple formula presented here in the Thread pro-US=bad anti-US=good.

**Coughdrop addict** · February 28, 2023, 09:27 AM

Ask Chomsky or any other apologist why so many of the former Soviet satellites couldn't get away from Russia and join up with NATO fast enough if you really want to be amused. They often become physically upset and bristling with anger as they go on long rants about "spies, "traitors", "class enemies" ect.

**Kyriakos** · February 28, 2023, 11:40 AM

I suppose it will be difficult to also call stuff like Kissinger "an apologist" for soviet regimes. It's almost as if a view can exist independently of who supports it.

**conon394** · February 28, 2023, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Kyriakos

I suppose it will be difficult to also call stuff like Kissinger "an apologist" for soviet regimes. It's almost as if a view can exist independently of who supports it.

Umm No I call Kissinger a vile war criminal and somebody who should have hung long ago and not still be alive while Jimi Hendrix is dead and the author of some of the worst foreign policy blunders in US history and is lucky Bushy Jr and Cheney saved from taking the gold all the time. And as an American I am sorry I never have ran into him on the street because I would enjoy the jail time for hitting him in the face (and maybe kicking him while he is down) - how's that

**Kyriakos** · February 28, 2023, 12:26 PM

It's why I called him "stuff" ^^
But the point is that not all who are against nato involvement, are "soviet apologists".

**Dave Strider** · February 28, 2023, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by conon394

He was an important linguist but he is also a epic tankie. Again there is a reason you should retire at 65

I have no dog in this thread and I'm gonna leave after this, but holy

, Chomsky is being called a "tankie" now? That just goes to show you the word has lost all its meaning. Chomsky is a

ing anarcho-syndicalist, dude, he's quite literally the opposite of a "tankie". Unless you're using "tankie" to mean "person whose politics I don't like", which is increasingly what the word means these days. Never in my life did I think I'd see Noam

ing Chomsky called a tankie, but here we are.

**Septentrionalis** · February 28, 2023, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Dave Strider

Never in my life did I think I'd see Noam

ing Chomsky called a tankie, but here we are.

Would anti-American communist sound right to you? That is what he is even though he likes to brand himself as some kind of anarchist.

**Coughdrop addict** · March 01, 2023, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Strider

I have no dog in this thread and I'm gonna leave after this, but holy

, Chomsky is being called a "tankie" now? That just goes to show you the word has lost all its meaning. Chomsky is a

ing anarcho-syndicalist, dude, he's quite literally the opposite of a "tankie". Unless you're using "tankie" to mean "person whose politics I don't like", which is increasingly what the word means these days. Never in my life did I think I'd see Noam

ing Chomsky called a tankie, but here we are.

Tankie now generally refers to those with a pathological hatred of the United States so severe they will praise and support literally anyone, no matter how vile, as long as that group opposes the United States.

Like other apologists Chomsky's worldview is very simple and very rigid, to the point that he is unable to conceptualize that in the current conflict Russia could ever be at fault for it's actions or that the United States cannot be at fault for everything bad that happens ever. He cannot reconcile his vision of how he thinks reality should work with concrete reality. Anything the United States does is bad, anyone that opposes or harms the United States is good, and that's as deep as he can go.

**conon394** · March 01, 2023, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Strider

I have no dog in this thread and I'm gonna leave after this, but holy

, Chomsky is being called a "tankie" now? That just goes to show you the word has lost all its meaning. Chomsky is a

ing anarcho-syndicalist, dude, he's quite literally the opposite of a "tankie". Unless you're using "tankie" to mean "person whose politics I don't like", which is increasingly what the word means these days. Never in my life did I think I'd see Noam

ing Chomsky called a tankie, but here we are.

"anarcho-syndicalist"

Nice look look I'm educated and your not... good thing he was a tenured professor at MIT all those years. I quite sure all those PhD students enjoyed him applying his anarcho-syndicalist principals to getting their PhDs.

He remains a Tankie. Might be a couple decades back I stopped to hear him talk while a Graduate student. Was about Palestine. Chomsky "...well in a perfect world (pause) one without the united states... General laughter..." There he was in a nut shell The US is an irredeemable as a negative imperialist actor and it commands all agency if other entities act negatively its only because the US made them do it. He always been a Tankie. Sometimes they are right but the man has seeing a nuance a while ago. Again like Hersh he really should have hung up his spurs a while back.

**Alastor** · March 01, 2023, 06:51 AM

An interesting video:

**saamohod** · March 01, 2023, 07:53 AM

Another interesting video:

**conon394** · March 01, 2023, 09:38 AM

So in actual war news look's like Bakhmut is going to fall. On the hand elsewhere around Vuhledar Ukraine is clearly inflicting a really unbalanced cost to Russia. But I wonder if Ukraine has not held Bakhmut too long maybe got suckered into knife fight it should have avoided.