Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

[Mithradates]

...also that you can still sell having thousands of military bases around Russia, but see no issue that they feel threatened and react; US would have freaked with even a couple of large bases on its border.

Russia has nukes inside the EU, with multiple EU capital cities in range of Russian missiles.
But "Russia feels threatened", yeah, nobody wants to invade Russia.
Its actually Russia who keeps invading its neighbors.

[Coughdrop addict]

Tankie has become the buzzword for anything that goes against the US narrative these days right?

Nah, it's the term for people so blinded by their seething hatred of the United States and it's people that they will defend and praise the very worst humanity has to offer as long as they say "Everything I do is the U.S.'s fault!", no matter how ludicrous the statement is.

Some sort of catch-all term to pre-emptively ridicule what could become uncomfortable. A derogatory term to reduce dissenting views to a joke.

Attempts to present Putin as a poor, put-upon victim of U.S. imperialism who was forced to invade Ukraine against his will are deserving of ridicule. Such views are no more worthy of serious consideration than arguing a computer works because of the tiny people living inside of it, and those who expound such views should be regarded in the same light.

You are focusing entirely on trying to refute big bad Vlad on the things he says that are a spin. Without bothering to take into account what's not. The existence of spin doesn't immediately refute a point. Sth that is a half-true, is still half true.

Generally people who constantly lie, never take responsibility, and blame others for their actions can safely be assumed to be lying. People like Putin always have an endless list of baseless excuses for their woes that always point away, never towards themselves.

Be honest, if Putin wasn't opposed to the United States would you still rush to his defense?

[Alastor]

Be honest, if Putin wasn't opposed to the United States would you still rush to his defense?

If Putin wasn't against the United States the narrative wouldn't be so ridiculously one-sided... so I probably wouldn't even bother commenting.

[Kyriakos]

Russia has nukes inside the EU, with multiple EU capital cities in range of Russian missiles.
But "Russia feels threatened", yeah, nobody wants to invade Russia.
Its actually Russia who keeps invading its neighbors.

Would be pretty difficult to install a massive force in Kalinigrad. That's the thing with nukes, they obliterate in seconds, so you don't win against them. It's also why the line now is "lol, nukes were never going to be used", because if they are used, there is no victory.

[Mithradates]

Would be pretty difficult to install a massive force in Kalinigrad. That's the thing with nukes, they obliterate in seconds, so you don't win against them. It's also why the line now is "lol, nukes were never going to be used", because if they are used, there is no victory.

Right.
So how is Russia being threatened... exactly? Im curious, what "threats" forced Russia to "react" and invade Ukraine?

[Duc d'Enghien]

Russia feels so threatened by NATO at their borders that they moved all military units from Kaliningrad and even air defense systems protecting St. Petersburg months ago.

[PointOfViewGun]

I have said repeatedly and very clearly that I don't consider the invasion justified. There is few things, if any, I would consider just in geopolitics anyway. All I'm doing is explaining why it happened, what provoked it.

You wouldn't make those arguments for other countries. Yet, you do for Russia. Denying that you're justifying the invasion doesn't change what you argue.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

The issue isn't whether Russia didn't embargo the US. It is that it seems very difficult to see that if nukes start to fall, the morons (I mean heads of states) who played this that far will be responsible for millions of deaths.
But sure, act like parts of Ukraine were always worth that. A good development would be not one, but two major powers removing themselves.

Millions of deaths is what will happen if Ukraine surrenders.

[Alastor]

You wouldn't make those arguments for other countries. Yet, you do for Russia. Denying that you're justifying the invasion doesn't change what you argue.

Where are you going with this? How do you know what arguments I would and wouldn't make for other countries? Why are you claiming I'm making special arguments for Russia then and, more importantly, how am I supposed to respond to such insinuations? Invent another invasion and comment on it so I can prove you wrong? Also considering you claimed I justified this invasion, when I have repeatedly said it's not justified, makes it obvious you don't even know what it is I argue. So it is rather interesting that you claim that it doesn't change it.

Millions of deaths is what will happen if Ukraine surrenders.

That's ridiculous. Where are the millions of deaths in Georgia for instance? That you call Putin Putler, doesn't actually make him Hitler. There is no final solution in the works here. It's utterly nonsensical to claim there is.

[conon394]

Would be pretty difficult to install a massive force in Kalinigrad. That's the thing with nukes, they obliterate in seconds, so you don't win against them. It's also why the line now is "lol, nukes were never going to be used", because if they are used, there is no victory.

Err before they got toseds into fire in Ukraine Russia had a whole army group there
https://www.politico.eu/article/suwa...poland-border/

And crap ton of air defense I suppose it nice to fly about out Greece and know there no Russian air defense tracking your civilian flights the Poles might prefer that otherwise - just ask Malaysian airways - but of course Kaliningrad is a deeply and religiously historic part of mother Russia right?

[Alastor]

but of course Kaliningrad is a deeply and religiously historic part of mother Russia right?

It's not. It's historically part of Prussia and thus Germany. But WW2.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

That's ridiculous. Where are the millions of deaths in Georgia for instance?

Were there millions of people in the territories occupied? No.
Were those areas annexed into Russia? No.
Were Georgians expelled from territories annexed to South Ossetia? Yes.
The areas taken were purified of the undisired populations.
In Ukraine things will be different, we've already seen the mass graves from the massacres commited. Those who can be assimilated by force will be, those who resist will have their hands tied behind their backs and shot. Just like We've already seen in Bucha, in Izium, in Kherson.

That you call Putin Putler, doesn't actually make him Hitler. There is no final solution in the works here. It's utterly nonsensical to claim there is.

I haven't called him Putler once, I've been calling him Mussolini.
Final solution? Well, not of holocaust levels, though the holocaust also started with mobile killing groups and mass graves full of people shot in the back. That we are already seeing.
The difference here is that the Rashists believe that a large portion of the population can be brainwashed into forgetting their identity.

[PointOfViewGun]

Where are you going with this? How do you know what arguments I would and wouldn't make for other countries? Why are you claiming I'm making special arguments for Russia then and, more importantly, how am I supposed to respond to such insinuations? Invent another invasion and comment on it so I can prove you wrong? Also considering you claimed I justified this invasion, when I have repeatedly said it's not justified, makes it obvious you don't even know what it is I argue. So it is rather interesting that you claim that it doesn't change it.

It's hard to get that rant of a response without hitting a few notes right... We have discussed a great number of conflicts, active or cold, in this forum and never had people defend one side with such lack of logic as some do with defending Russia. No allegations against other state's have been brushed away as you do with Russia. No other state's supposed "interests and concerns" trumped any and all aspects of the conflict. Why does Russia enjoy this special status?

[Kyriakos]

Err before they got thrown into fire in Ukraine Russia had a whole army group there
https://www.politico.eu/article/suwa...poland-border/

And crap ton of air defense I suppose it nice to fly about out Greece and know there is no Russian air defense tracking your civilian flights the Poles might prefer that otherwise - just ask Malaysian airways - but of course Kaliningrad is a deeply and religiously historic part of mother Russia right?

It'd be a parallel universe where Russia hits a Greek civilian flight. And parallel universe is also a prerequisite for many other things imagined.
Some countries do have reasons to legitimately fear Russian invasion. Basically those that have large russian minorities (eg in the northern baltic, Estonia etc). Other countries have zero fear of being attacked by Russia, for a multitude of reasons - let alone Greece, which hosts two beyond-massive US military bases and has no historical enmity with Russia.

[conon394]

It'd be a parallel universe where Russia hits a Greek civilian flight. And parallel universe is also a prerequisite for many other things imagined.
Some countries do have reasons to legitimately fear Russian invasion. Basically those that have large russian minorities (eg in the northern baltic, Estonia etc). Other countries have zero fear of being attacked by Russia, for a multitude of reasons - let alone Greece, which hosts two beyond-massive US military bases and has no historical enmity with Russia.

You dodged about my main point that until the invasion of Ukraine Kaliningrad was in fact just a big mass of Russian military sitting about as a threat - they did used have a ton forces there.

[Alastor]

Were there millions of people in the territories occupied? No.
Were those areas annexed into Russia? No.
Were Georgians expelled from territories annexed to South Ossetia? Yes.
The areas taken were purified of the undisired populations.
In Ukraine things will be different, we've already seen the mass graves from the massacres commited. Those who can be assimilated by force will be, those who resist will have their hands tied behind their backs and shot. Just like We've already seen in Bucha, in Izium, in Kherson.

Purified makes it sounds like they were killed, but they were not, were they? Only displaced. This doesn't justify your claim of "millions of deaths". The Bucha massacre is basically the only real example you have to lean on to and even then the dead were hundreds, not millions.

I haven't called him Putler once, I've been calling him Mussolini.
Final solution? Well, not of holocaust levels, though the holocaust also started with mobile killing groups and mass graves full of people shot in the back. That we are already seeing.
The difference here is that the Rashists believe that a large portion of the population can be brainwashed into forgetting their identity.

You have called him both. I do know how to use the search function. But either way.
The point remains, you have no basis for your "millions of deaths" claim. Other than Russia bad that is. The current estimate of civilian casualties remains lower than many a WW2 city siege, much less an entire war theater.

It's hard to get that rant of a response without hitting a few notes right...

That you call my response a rant, clearly indicates how willing you are to engage in good faith. But fine, let's see the points you make one by one.

We have discussed a great number of conflicts, active or cold, in this forum and never had people defend one side with such lack of logic as some do with defending Russia.

I don't care what you have done with other people, but I will say again that you refuse to see the logic in my posts doesn't mean it's not there. Prove there is no logic if you can. Take my specific points apart using your own logic if you can. You can't. All you can do is cry foul. That's not a debating strategy. Certainly not a good faith one.

No allegations against other state's have been brushed away as you do with Russia.

What allegations did I brush away? That Russia is preparing to commit a new holocaust? Sure because it's nonsense. But aside from that I never once said Russia has been all nice and cuddly, I even posted links discussing Russian atrocities a few pages ago. You need to understand the difference between trying to be even handed and taking a side. But of course fanatics on either side will see an attempt to take a more middle ground as siding with the enemy, so I guess I'm not that surprised you speak this way.

No other state's supposed "interests and concerns" trumped any and all aspects of the conflict.

Rubbish. How did they trump "any and all aspects of the conflict". In which one of my posts do you base such ludicrous claims on? In the future you should try reading my posts, like actually reading them.

Why does Russia enjoy this special status?

It would appear that Russia is enjoying a special status only in your head. Your partisanship is clear. So ask yourself that question.

[Kyriakos]

You dodged about my main point that until the invasion of Ukraine Kaliningrad was in fact just a big mass of Russian military sitting about as a threat - they did used have a ton forces there.

Maybe they removed conventional forces, because Kalinigrad is a Russian island, surrounded by nato. It doesn't have strategic depth and cannot be defended conventionally against any combined large nato force.
Nukes, on the other hand, don't care, as there is no point in a german tank army starting for Kalinigrad, when Berlin would become a furnace before they reach russian territory.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Purified makes it sounds like they were killed, but they were not, were they? Only displaced.

"only" lol.

This doesn't justify your claim of "millions of deaths".

The next part of my reply does but okay. You can look at Russia's history with other minorities that resisted its rule, namely Ossetians, Crimean Tatars, etc.

The Bucha massacre is basically the only real example you have to lean on to and even then the dead were hundreds, not millions.

Do I have to explain how there were not millions of people living in Bucha?

Also, "only"? I've noted 3. Bucha was not the only massacre commited by Fascist Russia during this invasion.

You have called him both. I do know how to use the search function. But either way.

When I search for mentions of Putler with my username it gives me no result. I suppose I might have called him that earlier on in the war, back when Russia's performance wasn't quite so miserable.

The point remains, you have no basis for your "millions of deaths" claim. Other than Russia bad that is. The current estimate of civilian casualties remains lower than many a WW2 city siege, much less an entire war theater.

Again, you're being extremely naive. Bucha was a small suburb with a pre-war population of around 37,000. We don't know how many were left there by the time the fascists occupied it, probably the majority had fled. Still, some 400+ were killed there. That's about 1.35% of the pre-war population. Multiply that number for the whole of Ukraine and you'd get roughly 600,000. But again, this is taking Bucha's pre-war population, the population when it was taken was much lower, the percentage killed much higher. If all of Ukraine were to be taken, such massacres would take place in every city, town and village.

[Alastor]

"only" lol.

As opposed to being killed, I'd say it qualifies as "only" yes.

Do I have to explain how there were not millions of people living in Bucha?

No but you do have to explain how this is evidence of a systematic approach. Which so far at least I haven't seen.

Also, "only"? I've noted 3. Bucha was not the only massacre commited by Fascist Russia during this invasion.

Again, when compared to your claims of millions, hundreds is only. Do you want me to say every single death is a tragedy? It is. If we hadn't established that, now that we have let's move on from such sensationalism.

Again, you're being extremely naive. Bucha was a small suburb with a pre-war population of around 37,000. We don't know how many were left there by the time the fascists occupied it, probably the majority had fled. Still, some 400+ were killed there. That's about 1.35% of the pre-war population. Multiply that number for the whole of Ukraine and you'd get roughly 600,000. But again, this is taking Bucha's pre-war population, the population when it was taken was much lower, the percentage killed much higher. If all of Ukraine were to be taken, such massacres would take place in every city, town and village.

Even if all of the remaining inhabitants of Bucha were killed, it's an atrocity most definitely, but it is also not evidence of a systematic approach of eliminating Ukrainians. We don't even know why exactly what happened in Bucha, happened. Besides, many cities of Ukraine have already been taken and lost by Russia, the civilians were rather clearly not "put to the sword", so your claim of "millions of deaths" is again unsubstantiated. The number of civilian casualties (killed and wounded) so far, as estimated by the UN is in the range of 40,000. An absolute tragedy. But hardly evidence of a systematic approach to eliminate civilians. Kherson alone had many times that number of people living in it for instance and if anything Russia has lost more soldiers so far than Ukraine has lost civilians, by quite a margin.

[Muizer]

We have discussed a great number of conflicts, active or cold, in this forum and never had people defend one side with such lack of logic as some do with defending Russia.

I'm quite sure we had people defend GW Bush' invasion of Iraq. An invasion that had an even worse justification than Putin's invasion of Ukraine. I can tell you my own reaction when the Iraq war started was not much different from that when the Ukraine invasion started. Something like, "You &%ffing bastards. You're actually going ahead with this!?!?!, whatever faith I had in you is gone for good". And so it is today. I do not assume the US is supporting Ukraine for all the right reasons. They just happen to be on the right side in this conflict..... for now.