Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

[conon394]

Did you mean implemented or not here? IIRC the largest reason why the harshest planned options were not implemented was simply because FDR died and Truman shifted the US focus to opposing Communism.

opps dropped the not in that - fixed

[Muizer]

What's Alastor even trying to argue at this point?

I don't know either, but it must be in defense of whatever position the leaders of his country are taking, because by Alastor's standards everything else would be treasonous.

[Alastor]

I don't know either, but it must be in defense of whatever position the leaders of his country are taking, because by Alastor's standards everything else would be treasonous.

Because my country is at war and I wished for its defeat and destruction huh? Which was what I called treasonous. Don't you think you folks have gone far enough with your strawmen? That you don't want to understand what I'm arguing for doesn't justify you assuming in a petty attempt to ridicule.

[mishkin]

Because my country is at war and I wished for its defeat and destruction huh? Which was what I called treasonous. Don't you think you folks have gone far enough with your strawmen? That you don't want to understand what I'm arguing for doesn't justify you assuming in a petty attempt to ridicule.

You might be tired of doing it, I haven't followed this discussion much, but could you say what is your general position on this war? do you want russia to withdraw from ukraine, that ukraine be negotiated and divided up in some way, that putin be removed from power by any means...?

[Ludicus]

Because my country is at war and I wished for its defeat and destruction huh? Which was what I called treasonous.

In fact, as much as they hate the Russian autocratic regime, it is indeed strange to see those who call themselves Russians willing to send their country back to the Stone Age, as someone has already stated here.

Talking about autocracies. During wartime, it is easy- and often convenient- to forget that Poland is world's “most autocratizing country”

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Earlier this year, Poland fell to its lowest ever position in the annual corruption index produced by Transparency International, which found that the “ruling party’s…steady erosion of the rule of law and democratic oversight has created conditions for corruption to flourish at the highest levels of power”.

Friendships between states are always friendships of utility. I think everyone already knows…
Poland asks Germany for war reparations of 1.3 trillion euros
Poland Demands Ukraine Recognize Genocide Committed in WWII

…But perhaps not everyone knows the explanation given by Poland:
“War crimes and genocide have no statute of limitations, and the calculation can be requested at any time. We started collecting documents 5 years ago and completed our report on September 1, 2022, so the war in Ukraine has nothing to do with it”. Reparations for Poland: what does Warsaw demand

So, it is to be expected that sooner or later- if they have not already done so- they will also ask for war reparations from Ukraine.
----
The Polish Prime Minister said yesterday in a thinly veiled criticism of Germany for not having spare parts for Leopard tanks, which the country plans to send to Kiev: “I am a little surprised by the words of German Chancellor Olaf Scholz. I hope their Leopards are ready, because, frankly, we have a serious problem with spare parts for tanks. Spare parts are made only in Germany. We do not understand this situation”.

In his speech in Poland, NATO’s new darling, Biden vowed to 'defend literally every inch of NATO' territory

That´s a good idea.The term “every inch” reminded me of James Baker's famous "not an inch eastward", but Poland would do well to follow Biden's directive to the letter, and not give in to the temptation to send troops to Ukraine.

Should that happen, the European democracies and peoples must not be taken by surprise and dragged into war without their full consent. Invoking our membership in NATO or the EU as a reason to imitate some EU/NATO countries, without any effort to weigh our self-interest, is a lazy excuse: we have no military obligation towards NATO, since Article 5 of the "mutual defense" does not apply in the present case of Ukraine, since Ukraine does not belong to NATO. Nor does the European Union have any common defense structure or strategy since the Gaullists and Communists aborted the Defense Treaty in the Paris Parliament in 1957, and the treaty never went into effect. Any European government, including my government, should make it a top priority to safeguard its population against the risk of its territory becoming a direct - or even indirect target (through the radioactive fallout from nuclear explosions).

Meanwhile in the US, according to A.P. survey, those who favor providing weapons to Kiev falls below 50% for first time Poll: Public support for sending military assistance to Ukraine

As the anniversary of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine approaches, support for providing weapons to Ukraine has dipped slightly below 50 percent for the first time, according to a new poll from The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research.
Respondents who either “strongly” or “somewhat” support providing weapons to Kyiv dropped from 60 percent last May to 48 percent now.
Overall, a steady half of the public wants the United States to play a “minor role” in the war. However, those clamoring for Washington to play a “major role” have shifted from 32 percent in May to 26 percent today, and those who want the United States to retreat to playing “no role” have increased from 19 to 24 percent. This was the only question that was also asked in March of last year, when 40 percent wanted Washington to play a major role, and only 13 percent believed it should play no role.

I have already mentioned in a previous post, two or three days ago, something along these lines,
Published yesterday, Putin & Zelensky: Sinners and saints who fit our historic narrative

(…) No western movie ever drew the good-versus-evil line so clearly or crudely. The White House, Congress, and the press insist that Ukraine is the innocent victim of unprovoked aggression, that Russian forces will threaten all of Europe if they are not stopped, and that the United States must stand with Ukraine “for as long as it takes” to assure victory.
Dissenting from this consensus is all but impossible. Even in the run-up to our 2003 invasion of Iraq, a few lonely voices cried out for restraint. Since we plunged into the Ukraine War, such voices are even harder to find.
Today it is considered heretical, if not treasonous, to suggest that all parties to the Ukraine conflict bear some blame, to argue that the United States should not pour sophisticated weapons into an active war zone, or to question whether we have any vital interest in the outcome of this conflict. A strictly enforced intellectual no-fly zone has all but suffocated rational debate about Ukraine.
For those of us who were war correspondents in an era when conflicts were reported from various perspectives, the one-sidedness of reporting about Ukraine is most striking. I covered Sandinistas and Contras, Serbs and Croats, Turks and Kurds. Those experiences taught me that in conflict, no one side has a monopoly on virtue. Today Americans are being told the opposite. We are fed a childlike narrative in which all virtue is on one side and all evil on the other.
…Politicians in Washington may be forgiven for jumping onto the Ukraine warpath. They presume that voters, who have more pressing concerns, will not punish them — and that arms makers will richly reward them. Less pardonable is the attitude of the press...One of the worst results of the Ukraine War is already clear. It has led to a new closing of the American mind.

[Alastor]

You might be tired of doing it, I haven't followed this discussion much, but could you say what is your general position on this war? do you want russia to withdraw from ukraine, that ukraine be negotiated and divided up in some way, that putin be removed from power by any means...?

Frankly, I don't care about any of the outcomes you mention. What I want is for the EU to start looking out for its own interests instead of sacrificing them in the altar of US maximalism and Zelensky's image. I want an outcome that benefits the EU. Whatever that may be. And the EU needs Russia's raw resources to enhance its economy, so that's kind of a must-have in my list of wants. Russia taking the Donbas hurts the EU less than the current situation. A negotiated settlement partitioning Ukraine does too. It certainly is a less precarious alternative than a potential Russian disintegration. And before you say that's not likely, remind me when was the last time the Russian polity faced a major defeat without similarly destructive consequences?

In the end of the day, I also don't understand what it is we are doing there anyway. Ukraine is not an ally, so why must we sacrifice, as we have, for them? What do we win out of this? Is it for democracy? Ukraine is hardly a democracy and we have supported more than enough dictatorships when it benefited us. For freedom and our way of life, as conon said? Hardly. Our way of life is threatened by internal forces much more so than anything Putin could do. Seriously, our way of life survived the Soviet Union and now it fears its shadow? So why this completely one-sided take where everyone who doesn't subscribe to Ukraine's complete victory over the horde is an abomination. If anything this take threatens our way of life much more so, as it hinders free speech, suppresses alternative political views and punishes wrongthink. We ought to remember, there is no good guys here. Ukrainians and Russians have been killing each other for a decade, this situation was instigated by various actors (remember Nuland's role in the maidan for instance) and this invasion was not unprovoked, no matter what Washington is trying to say. Note, unjustified is not the same as unprovoked. I am generally anti-war, so I'd be pressed to find justification for any invasion. Even more so, that we have turned this specific post-Soviet conflict, out of all others, into the mother of all battles "for democracy" is one of the worst and most incomprehensible spins I have seen in my lifetime. Yet here we are.

To sum up, my position is pro-EU, not pro-Russia, not pro-Ukraine. One of the reasons I post the way I do is because I dislike how one-sided the debate is. I focus on Ukraine because EVERYONE is focusing on Russia. That's all.

In fact, as much as they hate the Russian autocratic regime, it is indeed strange to see those who call themselves Russians willing to send their country back to the Stone Age, as someone has already stated here.

I must admit, I find that extremely odd myself.

[mishkin]

Thanks. Right now I don't have time to answer you, but it doesn't seem like any nonsense to me.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

In fact, as much as they hate the Russian autocratic regime, it is indeed strange to see those who call themselves Russians willing to send their country back to the Stone Age, as someone has already stated here.

Could it be that those have suffered much under Putins rule since 2000 or his war in Ukraine? Unlike those in the West, who want to end this war at any cost for the ukrainian people because for example 50 Cent more expensive cans of Tuna or higher gas prices?

Its not uncommon, that political immigrants are turning against their homeland like Thomas Mann, Marlene Dietrich or others. They know best why.

[Alastor]

Could it be that those have suffered much under Putins rule since 2000 or his war in Ukraine? Unlike those in the West, who want to end this war at any cost for the ukrainian people because for example 50 Cent more expensive cans of Tuna or higher gas prices?

Its not uncommon, that political immigrants are turning against their homeland like Thomas Mann, Marlene Dietrich or others. They know best why.

I would understand if those people were against the regime. But against their country? To cheer as their compatriots are being killed? Calling them Putin's fascists and deserving of death, because they were unlucky enough to be conscripted? No, that is a few steps too far for me to sympathize with.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

• The deep conviction . . . that nothing good for Germany or the world can come out of the present German regime, has made me avoid the country in whose spiritual tradition I am more deeply rooted than are those who for three years have been trying to find courage enough to declare before the world that I am not a German. And I feel to the bottom of my heart that I have done right in the eyes of my contemporaries and of posterity.
  
  • Responding to anti-semitic propaganda and to criticisms of German writers living in exile during the early years of the Nazi regime in Germany, as quoted in "Homage to Thomas Mann" in The New Republic (1 April 1936)

This kind of people have my full respect, they have chosen an active stance against the crimes of their country.

Not like the kind of people, who see the evil and stay silent because of cowardness and fear or even worse ala "Not me, not my problem, i don't care."

Those who stay silent and do their part for the regime are supporting this regime.

They must be fight, if this regime shall fall.

[reavertm]

In fact, as much as they hate the Russian autocratic regime, it is indeed strange to see those who call themselves Russians willing to send their country back to the Stone Age, as someone has already stated here.

Talking about autocracies. During wartime, it is easy- and often convenient- to forget that Poland is world's “most autocratizing country”

Yes, PiS (ruling party in Poland) has been going along Putin and Orban playbook for quite some time (mass propaganda in public state media, trying to eliminate independent media).
There is a hope we will depose them during next elections though.
But it may be difficult, hearing older people around me being subject to dumb propaganda.
As for reparations from Germany, it's standard pre-election cycle campaign topic from PiS. Subject was brought before, is being brought now, will be brought during next election cycle. It's just to cement their voting base, move along, nothing to see here.

As to why do we care about Ukrainians even though they aren't in EU or NATO.
Apart from a matter of principle to resist forceful redrawing of nearby borders by fascist dictatorship, from Polish perspective, they are our brothers, lots of Polish families have roots and relatives there. Same with Belarus. It's almost as if Russia attacked Poland. It's disgusting to me to suggest throwing Ukrainians under the bus to have lower prices of tuna cans in EU.
But this is selfishness I could understand. I think more disgusting I find virtue signalling that some of forum members express. Pretending to care. Fake as .

[fkizz]

Frankly, I don't care about any of the outcomes you mention. What I want is for the EU to start looking out for its own interests instead of sacrificing them in the altar of US maximalism and Zelensky's image. I want an outcome that benefits the EU. Whatever that may be. And the EU needs Russia's raw resources to enhance its economy, so that's kind of a must-have in my list of wants. Russia taking the Donbas hurts the EU less than the current situation. A negotiated settlement partitioning Ukraine does too.

This has been already done and empirically tested, everyone looked the other way and tacitally agreed on appeasement, and allowed Russia have Crimea and Donbass without much interference. Even pro-Kremlin Nyash Myash internet memes flew everywhere.
The result wasn't a stable situation where EU was seen as a calculist player who weighs well the trade offs for better acess to Russia's resources. Kremlin perceived EU as being afraid, weak, fragile and not likely to put up resistance in whatever Putin decides to do next, or even possibly to easily become collaborators.

Seriously, our way of life survived the Soviet Union and now it fears its shadow?

Actually, the reason for surviving Soviet Union required almost paranoid levels of vigilance. Plus, USSR had an advantage that current Kremlin does not have: leadership had to listen to all opinions of Politbureau, and consider the impact on internal politics that a decision on foreign policy would cause. It had more accountability. Nowadays, it's more cult of personality, whatever the leader decides, the rest have to pretend they had never seen anything more beautiful in their lives, at the risk of undergoing some sort of reprisal otherwise.

To sum up, my position is pro-EU, not pro-Russia, not pro-Ukraine. One of the reasons I post the way I do is because I dislike how one-sided the debate is. I focus on Ukraine because EVERYONE is focusing on Russia. That's all.

Being pro-EU and wanting EU to win, seeing Russia bringing war to EU's borders is of utmost concern. Plus you mention economic interests, Russia bringing war to where the Gas pipelines are highly increases economical risk and the war in Europe also makes Gas delivery agreements to Europe much less trusteable.
To have a respectable amount of trade some tranquility that trade agreements won't be breached are one of the required founding pillars, China understands this better than Kremlin.

[Duc d'Enghien]

In fact, as much as they hate the Russian autocratic regime, it is indeed strange to see those who call themselves Russians willing to send their country back to the Stone Age, as someone has already stated here.


Friendships between states are always friendships of utility. I think everyone already knows…
Poland asks Germany for war reparations of 1.3 trillion euros
Poland Demands Ukraine Recognize Genocide Committed in WWII

…But perhaps not everyone knows the explanation given by Poland:
“War crimes and genocide have no statute of limitations, and the calculation can be requested at any time. We started collecting documents 5 years ago and completed our report on September 1, 2022, so the war in Ukraine has nothing to do with it”. Reparations for Poland: what does Warsaw demand

So, it is to be expected that sooner or later- if they have not already done so- they will also ask for war reparations from Ukraine.
----
The Polish Prime Minister said yesterday in a thinly veiled criticism of Germany for not having spare parts for Leopard tanks, which the country plans to send to Kiev: “I am a little surprised by the words of German Chancellor Olaf Scholz. I hope their Leopards are ready, because, frankly, we have a serious problem with spare parts for tanks. Spare parts are made only in Germany. We do not understand this situation”.

In his speech in Poland, NATO’s new darling, Biden vowed to 'defend literally every inch of NATO' territory

That´s a good idea.The term “every inch” reminded me of James Baker's famous "not an inch eastward", but Poland would do well to follow Biden's directive to the letter, and not give in to the temptation to send troops to Ukraine.

Should that happen, the European democracies and peoples must not be taken by surprise and dragged into war without their full consent. Invoking our membership in NATO or the EU as a reason to imitate some EU/NATO countries, without any effort to weigh our self-interest, is a lazy excuse: we have no military obligation towards NATO, since Article 5 of the "mutual defense" does not apply in the present case of Ukraine, since Ukraine does not belong to NATO. Nor does the European Union have any common defense structure or strategy since the Gaullists and Communists aborted the Defense Treaty in the Paris Parliament in 1957, and the treaty never went into effect. Any European government, including my government, should make it a top priority to safeguard its population against the risk of its territory becoming a direct - or even indirect target (through the radioactive fallout from nuclear explosions).

1. Germans pretty much razed Poland to the ground, including its capital, and murdered millions of citizens. From legal point of view, its disputable that Poland ever renounced its rights for reparations (since deal back then have been made under pressure of USSR). What is wrong with explanation given by Poland. Are you trying to suggest that what Germands did in Poland 1939-1945 was not genocide and war crime?
2. How can Poland even hipothetically demand any war reparations from Ukraine since during II WW there was no Ukrainian state, and ukrainians nationalists who commited crimes against polish population were de jure citizens of pre-war Poland. You clearly have no idea what are you talking about.
3. Show some actual hard evidence that Poland is planning to send troops to Ukraine.
hypotheticallyhypothetically

[Muizer]

Because my country is at war and I wished for its defeat and destruction huh? Which was what I called treasonous.

That 'wish' was not expressed in isolation. It was expressed as a price required worth paying for a better Russia. And yes, that 'better' was evidently not by the Kremlin's standards.

What exactly makes it so that you apparently feel Russians should follow the Kremlin's views of what is best for Russia no matter what those standards are?

[Kyriakos]

• The deep conviction . . . that nothing good for Germany or the world can come out of the present German regime, has made me avoid the country in whose spiritual tradition I am more deeply rooted than are those who for three years have been trying to find courage enough to declare before the world that I am not a German. And I feel to the bottom of my heart that I have done right in the eyes of my contemporaries and of posterity.
  
  • Responding to anti-semitic propaganda and to criticisms of German writers living in exile during the early years of the Nazi regime in Germany, as quoted in "Homage to Thomas Mann" in The New Republic (1 April 1936)
  
  

This kind of people have my full respect, they have chosen an active stance against the crimes of their country.

Not like the kind of people, who see the evil and stay silent because of cowardness and fear or even worse ala "Not me, not my problem, i don't care."

Those who stay silent and do their part for the regime are supporting this regime.

They must be fight, if this regime shall fall.

Interesting that the nazis would overlook homosexuality front and center in a few works by Mann, just to have him parrot their lines.

[Alastor]

This has been already done and empirically tested, everyone looked the other way and tacitally agreed on appeasement, and allowed Russia have Crimea and Donbass without much interference. Even pro-Kremlin Nyash Myash internet memes flew everywhere.
The result wasn't a stable situation where EU was seen as a calculist player who weighs well the trade offs for better acess to Russia's resources. Kremlin perceived EU as being afraid, weak, fragile and not likely to put up resistance in whatever Putin decides to do next, or even possibly to easily become collaborators.

This is spin though. You are seriously telling me the Kremlin has better spin doctors than we do? As for the Kremlin perceiving the EU as being weak, well newsflash it is. It's the US that is driving this "resistance" movement. Not the EU. That the EU looks good in the meantime is spin, without the US to push for uniformity via NATO, the EU's response wouldn't be anywhere near as decisive.

Actually, the reason for surviving Soviet Union required almost paranoid levels of vigilance. Plus, USSR had an advantage that current Kremlin does not have: leadership had to listen to all opinions of Politbureau, and consider the impact on internal politics that a decision on foreign policy would cause. It had more accountability. Nowadays, it's more cult of personality, whatever the leader decides, the rest have to pretend they had never seen anything more beautiful in their lives, at the risk of undergoing some sort of reprisal otherwise.

So how exactly is that a greater threat for our way of living?

Being pro-EU and wanting EU to win, seeing Russia bringing war to EU's borders is of utmost concern. Plus you mention economic interests, Russia bringing war to where the Gas pipelines are highly increases economical risk and the war in Europe also makes Gas delivery agreements to Europe much less trusteable.
To have a respectable amount of trade some tranquility that trade agreements won't be breached are one of the required founding pillars, China understands this better than Kremlin.

I will repeat, the war was not unprovoked. That's one. Second, the idea of war in the EU's borders means effectively little in practical terms. Aside from sentimentalities I mean. We've had war effectively in our borders (at least Turkey's borders, or off Italy's coasts) for over a decade now. In this theater, there were alternative pipelines. Including those that were... mysteriously destroyed since. Third, taking for granted the fact the war occurred what denies the EU access more? Taking a balanced position, playing both sides (sth for instance Turkey seems to be doing), or throwing their hat in the ring against their suppliers?

That 'wish' was not expressed in isolation. It was expressed as a price required worth paying for a better Russia. And yes, that 'better' was evidently not by the Kremlin's standards.

What exactly makes it so that you apparently feel Russians should follow the Kremlin's views of what is best for Russia no matter what those standards are?

Indeed it was not in isolation, it was in conjunction with an attempt to conform to a new western home. Aka self-interest. That's an alternative interpretation to yours, a bit more cynical perhaps. But I have a hard time accepting that someone would want their country destroyed so "it will get better". Kremlin standards here are your insertion and entirely irrelevant to the topic. In fact it is insidious, as you are yet again trying to paint me as a Kremlin-bot. Seriously aren't you people tired of trying to do that? But whatever you may say, a country destroyed and innocent compatriots dying are what they are. Kremlin or not. A more measured response, I could understand. Lamenting the situation, while acknowledging sth good may come out of it, I could understand. Taking a side this aggressively, I do not understand.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

@Kyriakos:

Well if the person could be useful for propaganda, they were able to close their eyes for a while...

For example Heinz Rühmann:

During the 1933-45 period, he acted in 37 films and directed four. After January 1933, Rühmann did not speak openly about German politics, but instead kept himself as neutral as possible. He never stated a word against or towards the Nazis in the press, although he had been a supporter of democracy. In 1938, he divorced his Jewish wife Maria, who then left Germany and travelled to Stockholm where she married a Swedish actor. The divorce caused Rühmann to be accused by some of wanting to secure his career; however, the marriage had probably already fallen apart, and some sources say that he wanted to protect his wife with the divorce.^[2] After 1945, Bernheim defended her ex-husband against accusations of opportunism.^[3] His second wife, Hertha Feiler, whom he married shortly after, had a Jewish grandfather, a fact that caused Rühmann problems with the Nazi cultural authorities. Rühmann retained his reputation as an apolitical star during the entire Nazi era.
...
Rühmann was a favorite actor of Holocaust diarist Anne Frank, who pasted his picture on the wall of her room in her family's hiding place during the war, where it can still be seen today.^[5] The enormous range of Rühmann's popularity during the Nazi era is illustrated by the fact that he was also a favorite actor of Adolf Hitler and his propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels.

Heinz Rühmann - Wikipedia

Or Max Schmeling first celebrated than shunned for his defeat of 1938 against Joe Lewis.

When he returned to Germany after his defeat by Joe Louis, Schmeling was now shunned by the Nazis. He won both the German and European heavyweight championships on the same night, with a first-round knockout of Adolf Heuser. During the Nazi purge of Jews from Berlin, he personally saved the lives of two Jewish children by hiding them in his apartment.^[7] It was not the first time that Schmeling defied the Nazi regime's hatred for Jews. As the story goes, Hitler let it be known through the Reich Ministry of Sports that he was very displeased at Schmeling's relationship with Joe Jacobs, his Jewish fight promoter, and wanted it terminated, but Schmeling refused to bow even to Hitler.^[8]During the war, Schmeling was drafted, where he served with the Luftwaffe and was trained as a paratrooper.^[9] He participated in the Battle of Crete in May 1941, where he was wounded in his right knee by mortar fire shrapnel during the first day of the battle.

Max Schmeling - Wikipedia

Celebreties have had more "freedom" in Nazi Germany. Not all used it to do good things.

[mishkin]

Thanks. Right now I don't have time to answer you, but it doesn't seem like any nonsense to me.

Humble answer, I don't know much about geopolitics nor am I really aware of Putin's recent military aggressions against his neighbors and policies against his citizens, dissidents and opponents.

The European Union I want should aspire to not be dependent in any way on authoritarian countries, dictatorships or semi-dictatorships that do not respect the human rights of their citizens (it goes without saying to cut ties with countries that try to take territories of their own by force). And it should also aspire to the countries that constitute it to flourish as democracies. It must not tolerate any dependence on Russia, China or Saudi Arabia, and it must not tolerate as a member of the European Union a country that does not meet democratic/social minimums.

Now, what to do with the dictator with an expansionist policy? Stop him from the start. Putin should have been stopped since he attacked Georgia (if this was his first incursion), in the same way that Mussolini should have been stopped when he attacked Ethiopia or Hitler when he began to absorb territories. War sucks, Zelenski is not a saint and his democracy certainly had a lot of flaws, but unfortunately Europe is doing what it has to do. try to stop the new dwarf with a complex* and help the attacked nation. The resolution of all this is going to be very complicated, but we did not cause this situation.

*Yes, I realize that Zelensky must not be much taller than Putin.

[Muizer]

Indeed it was not in isolation, it was in conjunction with an attempt to conform to a new western home. Aka self-interest. That's an alternative interpretation to yours, a bit more cynical perhaps. But I have a hard time accepting that someone would want their country destroyed so "it will get better". Kremlin standards here are your insertion and entirely irrelevant to the topic. In fact it is insidious, as you are yet again trying to paint me as a Kremlin-bot. Seriously aren't you people tired of trying to do that? But whatever you may say, a country destroyed and innocent compatriots dying are what they are. Kremlin or not. A more measured response, I could understand. Lamenting the situation, while acknowledging sth good may come out of it, I could understand. Taking a side this aggressively, I do not understand.

Evidently I don't see it that way, but I don't think we're getting anywhere. Instead perhaps you can answer what according to you a Russian dissident should do and say concerning the war that you wold deem neither selfish nor treasonous.

[Alastor]

Evidently I don't see it that way, but I don't think we're getting anywhere. Instead perhaps you can answer what according to you a Russian dissident should do and say concerning the war that you wold deem neither selfish nor treasonous.

I have already answered that. In the very post you quoted, but also earlier.