Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

[conon394]

Going by the statements made at the Potsdam conference, they don't seem overly bothered by what the Soviets were doing. Of course, they were quite aware that Stalin probably didn't care what the British, Americans or French thought.

You are a little unfair. First of course the US and UK were in a bit weak position politically Truman and was in and Churchill had to know he was in fact going to booted out. Beyond that FDR had already made poor choices about how he could trust Stalin not to be well Stalin at Yalta and before. Maybe had FDR resigned for health reasons earlier Truman could have with Churchill taken a harder line back at Yalta.... but that was not to be. Also again simple facts on the ground. Maybe had market garden worked and maybe if Hitler had toss his last throw at the eastern Front rather than the doomed Battle of the Bulge(*)... well and maybe those fact would have been different. Also don't forget the US and UK alone were still fighting Japan and even if the bomb brought swift victory had to deal with a occupied territory, Japan and the mess in China. Outside of actually threatening war I can't much at Potsdam the US and UK could have done but rubber stamp what Stalin wanted.

* alternatively also say had Hitler been more rational and there was no battle of Kursk and Germany in fact retrenched and aimed for a more flexible defense and begin to fight not to loose rather any insane ideal they could win.

[Peresvet]

i don't think any european socialist party (I am remembering now that Borrell* is a socialist) is against helping ukraine in the war against putin. Again, if you're talking about some communist MEP rejecting any European intervention in Ukraine, that man feels very lonely right now, his influence is close to zero.

* High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy

You wrong. For example, spanish leftists:

MADRID, 17 February. /TASS/. Spanish Minister of Social Rights and leader of the Podemos (We Can) party, Ione Belarra, who did not support sending tanks to Ukraine, sees no guarantees that Madrid will not send its soldiers to help Kiev. "Podemos" ("We can") is part of the coalition government of the country, headed by the leader of the Spanish Socialist Workers' Party (PSOE), Pedro Sanchez. Defense Minister Margarita Robles is also a supporter of the PSOE.

[mishkin]

You wrong. For example, spanish idiots - leftists:

MADRID, 17 February. /TASS/. Spanish Minister of Social Rights and leader of the Podemos (We Can) party, Ione Belarra, who did not support sending tanks to Ukraine, sees no guarantees that Madrid will not send its soldiers to help Kiev. "Podemos" ("We can") is part of the coalition government of the country, headed by the leader of the Spanish Socialist Workers' Party (PSOE), Pedro Sanchez. Defense Minister Margarita Robles is also a supporter of the PSOE.

the president of the spanish socialist party and president of spain pedro sánchez is totally in favor of militarily helping ukraine (you know they are actually helping). no one from the spanish socialist party is against helping militarily to ukraine. Their partner in the government, Unidas Podemos, is against the war and tries to keep Spain from participating in it, to no avail.

[Peresvet]

the president of the spanish socialist party and president of spain pedro sánchez is totally in favor of militarily helping ukraine (you know they are actually helping). no one from the spanish socialist party is against helping militarily to ukraine. Their partner in the government, Unidas Podemos, is against the war and tries to keep Spain from participating in it, to no avail.

No doubt others have asked you before, I ask you now to be more restrained in your comments ("spanish idiots - leftists")

if they really supported aid to Ukraine, they would leave the coalition with Podemos. And they would not support the supporters of the neutrality of Spain. The task of Europe now is to stop Putin's aggression, and some radical leftists seek to stop aid to Ukraine and help the Putin regime, which secretly finances them.

[mishkin]

if they really supported aid to Ukraine, they would leave the coalition with Podemos. And they would not support the supporters of the neutrality of Spain. The task of Europe now is to stop Putin's aggression, and some radical leftists seek to stop aid to Ukraine and help the Putin regime, which secretly finances them.

Seriously, for the sake of your cause that I basically share, stop talking nonsense.

Very few leftist European political parties, and with very little influence, declare themselves pacifist and against military aid to Ukraine. They don't even declare themselves in favor of Putin, they simply (and stupidly in my opinion) ask for negotiations to end the war. If you have any proof that any leftist party is pro-Putin and has received money from Putin, please post it here. In the meantime, please behave for the sake of public relations/image of ukraine.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Today Spain announced they will send 6 Leopard 2 A4 to Ukraine.

So they do their part in supporting Ukraine.

[sumskilz]

if they really supported aid to Ukraine, they would leave the coalition with Podemos. And they would not support the supporters of the neutrality of Spain.

The notion that a Spanish party, regardless of its political alignment, would make signaling loyalty to the Ukrainian cause its highest priority, above maintaining its position in a ruling coalition, is utterly ridiculous.

[Peresvet]

Seriously, for the sake of your cause that I basically share, stop talking nonsense.

Very few leftist European political parties, and with very little influence, declare themselves pacifist and against military aid to Ukraine. They don't even declare themselves in favor of Putin, they simply (and stupidly in my opinion) ask for negotiations to end the war. If you have any proof that any leftist party is pro-Putin and has received money from Putin, please post it here. In the meantime, please behave for the sake of public relations/image of ukraine.

For example: The President of Bulgaria opposed the supply of weapons to Ukraine.
Bulgarian President Rumen Radev said he was "categorically" against arms supplies to Ukraine. According to him, this would mean the involvement of Bulgaria in the conflict, TASS reported. On April 26, representatives of the Bulgarian Socialist Party (BSP), which is part of the ruling coalition, refused to travel to Kyiv.

[Alastor]

Seriously, for the sake of your cause that I basically share, stop talking nonsense.

Oh come on, don't be such as spoilsport now. Let the man express his full range.

I don't remember who it was in this thread that said we should nuke Russia back to the stone age, but seeing Peresvet's display here and taking for granted his claim to be one of the "good" Russians, I'm beginning to think that guy may have been right. Yeah, that blasted hellhole needs to go alright.

[Peresvet]

Oh come on, don't be such as spoilsport now. Let the man express his full range.

I don't remember who it was in this thread that said we should nuke Russia back to the stone age, but seeing Peresvet's display here and taking for granted his claim to be one of the "good" Russians, I'm beginning to think that guy may have been right. Yeah, that blasted hellhole needs to go alright.

Russia is not putin regime and not such supporters of putin in Europe and tyranny. Russia is great and beautifull country with talent people, who hate putin regime, such Kasparov, Dud, Akunin, Shevchuk, Ahedjakova, Shenderovich, Pugacheva and many others. And most of russian people hate putin regime and live his own life, in poverty and hard work, think about money and food for their families everyday. They not interested of politics, war and Ukraine. Russia is great legacy of culture, such as Tarkovsky, genius author of best art house cinema. And beatifull nature most of all.

[Alastor]

Russia is not putin regime and not such supporters of putin in Europe and tyranny. Russia is great and beautifull country with talent people, who hate putin regime, such Kasparov, Dud, Akunin, Shevchuk, Ahedjakova, Shenderovich, Pugacheva and many others. And most of russian people hate putin regime and live his own life, in poverty and hard work, think about money and food for their families everyday. They not interested of politics, war and Ukraine. Russia is great legacy of culture, such as Tarkovsky, genius author of best art house cinema. And beatifull nature most of all.

I declared it? How droll. Now you remember the beauty of Russia and its poor oppressed people? You who have been calling for even more sanctions that hurt everyone, including those poor common people? You who have been cheering as their sons are dying in Ukraine and calling for Ukraine to gain the means to kill more? You of all people have the nerve to say all these things?

[conon394]

Today Spain announced they will send 6 Leopard 2 A4 to Ukraine.

So they do their part in supporting Ukraine.

Yes but I think every NATO country needs to stop being in for a penny and be in for a pound, I mean really Russia is no condition to open any new fronts or attack NATO. And the Ukraine needs to equipping new mechanized/armored Brigades now. Come on Germany will eventually ramp up production on new tanks so why worry. The US is burned out out on Middle east wars. If China invades Taiwan that all down to Air Force and Navy and at best that likely just means European NATO has to all its own work since the US air and naval assets will leaving. I mean really if Spain donated every single tank it had would it be any less secure tomorrow? Same for the US stop pussy footing around send enough tanks, Bradley's and support vehicles to equip a brigade.

[Alastor]

@conon394
I have a better idea, why stop at the pound? Why not go all in. I don't mean fighter jets or other such paltry means. I mean we should give Zelensky, the great champion of democracy, access to NATO's nuclear arsenal. Let's see then what the madman in the Kremlin will do. I mean we can totally trust Ukraine with that, they would not abuse it or anything. As we have established numerous times in this thread they are heroic elven paladins all of them, not murderous thugs like all those Russian orcs. Excluding of course the Russians from Ukraine, those have been influenced by the Ukrainian's elven aura long enough to be at least on knight level, if not quite paladins yet.

Now, on a more serious note, we have already done our part in perpetuating this conflict. In fact we made it existential for Putin's regime, so that he can't back down. To keep sending our own equipment to Ukraine to continue this war by proxy keeps us safe how? Ukrainians get to die now instead of us very(-very-very) theoretically dying in the future?

[conon394]

@conon394
I have a better idea, why stop at the pound? Why not go all in. I don't mean fighter jets or other such paltry means. I mean we should give Zelensky, the great champion of democracy, access to NATO's nuclear arsenal. Let's see then what the madman in the Kremlin will do. I mean we can totally trust Ukraine with that, they would not abuse it or anything. As we have established numerous times in this thread they are heroic elven paladins all of them, not murderous thugs like all those Russian orcs. Excluding of course the Russians from Ukraine, those have been influenced by the Ukrainian's elven aura long enough to be at least on knight level, if not quite paladins yet.

Now, on a more serious note, we have already done our part in perpetuating this conflict. In fact we made it existential for Putin's regime, so that he can't back down. To keep sending our own equipment to Ukraine to continue this war by proxy keeps us safe how? Ukrainians get to die now instead of us very(-very-very) theoretically dying in the future?

Sarcasm much?

I mean we should give Zelensky, the great champion of democracy, access to NATO's nuclear arsenal. Let's see then what the madman in the Kremlin will do. I mean we can totally trust Ukraine with that, they would not abuse it or anything. As we have established numerous times in this thread they are heroic elven paladins all of them, not murderous thugs like all those Russian orcs. Excluding of course the Russians from Ukraine, those have been influenced by the Ukrainian's elven aura long enough to be at least on knight level, if not quite paladins yet.

I don't believe I personally have ever said anything like that. What I do believe is that the Ukraine is a recognized sovereign state in its pre 2014 Putin altered boarders. I also believe that I can recall Russia agreed to guarantee those boarders. I believe Putin has produced no particular justification for his attempt at making new maps either in 2014 or now. Does Ukraine have its issue certainly. But I also believe that had not been left dangling in Russia orbit and instead joined both the EU and NATO it current internal political situation would be very much better. I would note I do for example think Zelensky was elected fairly something Putin has not been able to say quite some time. You strike me as somebody who have argued against LL to the USSR in WW2.

Now, on a more serious note, we have already done our part in perpetuating this conflict. In fact we made it existential for Putin's regime, so that he can't back down. To keep sending our own equipment to Ukraine to continue this war by proxy keeps us safe how? Ukrainians get to die now instead of us very(-very-very) theoretically dying in the future?

Perpetuation the conflict? So what is your alternative just have sat by and watched alteration of boarders by force become normalized?

In fact we made it existential for Putin's regime

I would submit the man's own half arsed planning of his great venture did that not the west.

To keep sending our own equipment to Ukraine to continue this war by proxy keeps us safe how?

It weakens a kleptocratic illiberal state that along with China and other seek to undermine the world order that post world war 2 created so much of the wealth of the US Europe and Japan et al.

Ukrainians get to die now instead of us

They can of course depose Zelensky and surrender anytime they want - on balance the vast majority do not seem to like that option

us very(-very-very) theoretically dying in the future?

What theoretical future would that be?

I mean we should give Zelensky, the great champion of democracy, access to NATO's nuclear arsenal. Let's see then what the madman in the Kremlin will do. I mean we can totally trust Ukraine with that

Funny you say that since Ludicus' great light of political theory was confident that is what should have happened in 1993 - let Ukraine keep its nukes.

[Alastor]

Sarcasm much?

Not as much as I would have preferred. Leaving aside the taboo factor of nukes the rest is basically semantics. We are sending Ukraine guns to kill Russians, we are sending them tanks to kill Russian. If we sent them tactical nukes to use on the field what would the real difference be? We have already crossed lines that months ago we thought uncrossable. How soon before this line doesn't seem that sacrosanct anymore?

I don't believe I personally have ever said anything like that. What I do believe is that the Ukraine is a recognized sovereign state in its pre 2014 Putin altered boarders. I also believe that I can recall Russia agreed to guarantee those boarders. I believe Putin has produced no particular justification for his attempt at making new maps either in 2014 or now. Does Ukraine have it issue certainly. But I also believe that had not been left dangling in Russia orbit and instead joined both the EU and NATO it current internal political situation would be very much better.

And? How does this, again very theoretical belief of yours, address the passage you are quoting? We are dealing with this issue in a manner so ridiculously one-sided that the idea of dissent is an abomination. Just look at this thread, I have been told that my position, which btw is not even pro-Russian as I don't necessarily care if Russia wins, is abominable.

Perpetuation the conflict? So what is your alternative just have sat by and watched alteration of boarders by force become normalized?

Well, we could have not interfered in the first place, over a decade now we have been trying to drive a wedge between Russia and Ukraine. Eventually we succeeded and here we are. But either way, let's say we got here. We armed and trained Ukraine and the war begun. Russia got bloodied. The message has been sent.

I would submit the man's own half arsed planning of his great venture did that not the west.

I do believe he got played. That must have hurt his ego quite some alright. But it does mean someone played him. I remember the US secret services trying to get credit for that.

It weakens a kleptocratic illiberal state that along with China and other seek to undermine the world order that post world war 2 created so much of the wealth of the US Europe and Japan et al.

Bah, we are doing a fine job undermining that ourselves. If we are strong we have nothing to fear from the likes of Russia or even China. I have said it before that if our concern is our system we need to look at home first. Instead we create strawmen like Putin and use them to divert attention from the real issues threatening our way of living. Rising inequality, ballooning of debt, erosion of pluralism, decline of free speech etc etc.

They can of course depose Zelensky and surrender anytime they want - on balance the vast majority do seem to like that option

Sure, because people pressed by one side or the other during a war know best. That's like saying Russia is a bastion of democracy and their war justified... because nobody deposed Putin yet.

What theoretical future would that be?

That where Russia attacks NATO. In other words an impossible future as things stand.

[PointOfViewGun]

What's Alastor even trying to argue at this point?

[Laser101]

You are a little unfair. First of course the US and UK were in a bit weak position politically Truman and was in and Churchill had to know he was in fact going to booted out. Beyond that FDR had already made poor choices about how he could trust Stalin not to be well Stalin at Yalta and before. Maybe had FDR resigned for health reasons earlier Truman could have with Churchill taken a harder line back at Yalta.... but that was not to be. Also again simple facts on the ground. Maybe had market garden worked and maybe if Hitler had toss his last throw at the eastern Front rather than the doomed Battle of the Bulge(*)... well and maybe those fact would have been different. Also don't forget the US and UK alone were still fighting Japan and even if the bomb brought swift victory had to deal with a occupied territory, Japan and the mess in China. Outside of actually threatening war I can't much at Potsdam the US and UK could have done but rubber stamp what Stalin wanted.

* alternatively also say had Hitler been more rational and there was no battle of Kursk and Germany in fact retrenched and aimed for a more flexible defense and begin to fight not to loose rather any insane ideal they could win.

That was the point I was going for though? There wasn't a whole lot the British or Americans could do about Eastern Europe given that the Soviet army held it. Although given that the Morgenthau Plan existed I doubt atrocities against Germans were something they had a problem with in any case.

[Coughdrop addict]

What's Alastor even trying to argue at this point?

I think it's that Russia should be allowed to do whatever it wants to whomever it wants because it opposes the United States and that the only reason Ukrainians are not welcoming Putin as their new overlord is they have been brainwashed by the evil United States.

[conon394]

That was the point I was going for though? There wasn't a whole lot the British or Americans could do about Eastern Europe given that the Soviet army held it. Although given that the Morgenthau Plan existed I doubt atrocities against Germans were something they had a problem with in any case.

Ok Fair. But I do think its also fair to say FDR judged Stalin really poorly and earlier in the war when the US had more leverage he failed to use it not just at Yalta but before. I don't think FDR gets enough criticism for forgetting Stalin was not ally but just the enemy of my enemy (*). I mean I fault him for prioritizing LL shipments to the USSR over the UK as a mistake and that was the first case where he was loosing sight of the bigger picture. I guess don't get me wrong I like FDR but I think maybe It would have been better had he resigned for health earlier Truman I think had the the better measure of Stalin than FDR

Morgenthau Plan

Which was not implemented and sort of a dead letter.

* I mean really FDR seemed to have deluded himself that he was not working with the guy who agreed the M-R pact and invaded Finland and will have known the additional demands he wanted from Hitler before that fell apart - those I can find in the lit in JSTOR from the time period.

[Laser101]

Which was implemented and sort of a dead letter.

Did you mean implemented or not here? IIRC the largest reason why the harshest planned options were not implemented was simply because FDR died and Truman shifted the US focus to opposing Communism.