View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

Voters
148. You may not vote on this poll
  • I support Ukraine fully.

    103 69.59%
  • I support Russia fully.

    15 10.14%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.70%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.43%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.73%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.41%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #7321
    Papay's Avatar Protector Domesticus
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Planet Nirn
    Posts
    4,458

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Peresvet View Post
    The situation in the early 2000s was ambiguous. On the one hand, Putin wanted, like Erdogan, to join NATO and the European Union, on the other hand, he did nothing to meet standards of EU and corruption increased. He constantly worsened the situation in the country with civil liberties and rights, closed free media and started a wave of repression. The NTV channel was closed, Khodorkovsky was imprisoned. That is why the European Union did not consider it necessary to believe Putin and, as it turned out, was right.
    Russia cannot enter EU and NATO not because they are not a democracy(the west continues to promote the idea that Russia is a dictatorship for propaganda reasons)but because its a very big country that would alter the balance of power inside EU and NATO

  2. #7322
    Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    8,355

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    NATO essentially exists to restrain Russian imperialism (in favour of US imperialism). Russia joining NATO would be like Sauron offering to join the Fellowship.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  3. #7323
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Cool and normal
    Posts
    5,419

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Being democratic isn't as important for NATO membership as it is for EU.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  4. #7324
    Peresvet's Avatar Civis
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    russian, but emigrant from war
    Posts
    148

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    Russia cannot enter EU and NATO not because they are not a democracy(the west continues to promote the idea that Russia is a dictatorship for propaganda reasons)but because its a very big country that would alter the balance of power inside EU and NATO
    If Russia does not join NATO, sooner or later it will become a puppet of China, as Russia's population decreases, the military weakens, the economy degrades, and the vast wealth of Siberia will be essentially out of control. Therefore, the strategic task of the US and NATO should be the integration of Russia into their space in order to prevent China from controlling Siberia.
    Last edited by Peresvet; February 05, 2023 at 01:34 AM.
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

  5. #7325
    Peresvet's Avatar Civis
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    russian, but emigrant from war
    Posts
    148

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    NATO essentially exists to restrain Russian imperialism (in favour of US imperialism). Russia joining NATO would be like Sauron offering to join the Fellowship.
    If we turn to history, Russia was often a member of European alliances, for example, a member of the Entente, the Union of the Three Emperors against Napoleon. Russia, by tradition and culture, is a European country, and only the madness of the neo-Soviet regime of former communists, putin and his gang of chekists pushes it into the arms of a Chinese monster, but this will not always be the case.
    NATO was able to integrate Turkey, which also has pan-Turkism, a special variant of imperialism. At present, the threat of Russian imperialism is exaggerated. The Russian army is weak, it cannot even take the small town of Bakhmut from Ukraine, let alone any more serious conquests. Therefore, after the defeat of Russia, NATO should integrate it and unite efforts in the fight against Islamic terrorism and China.
    Last edited by Peresvet; February 05, 2023 at 03:13 AM.
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

  6. #7326
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    13,065

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Peresvet View Post
    Russia was often a member of European alliances, for example, a member of the Entente, the Union of the Three Emperors against Napoleon. Russia, by tradition and culture, is a European country.... NATO was able to integrate Turkey, which also has pan-Turkism, a special variant of imperialism. At present, the threat of Russian imperialism is exaggerated.


    Yes,yes and and yes,
    and St.Petersburg is one of the most splendid cities in Europe.No other city in Europe surpasses St. Petersburg and Paris in splendor. When they say that Russia intends to conquer Europe, it's just talk to put us to sleep.Of course, there are many variants of imperialism, including the US imperialism.Turkey may be part of NATO, but it will never be accepted into the EU, a Christian bastion. On a side note, military alliances have nothing to do with democratic ideals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peresvet View Post
    ...Therefore, after the defeat of Russia, NATO should integrate it
    This is your fundamental, though well-intentioned, mistake.
    What could happen in case of Russia's defeat would be its disintegration.Russia will always be considered too big to be integrated into the US military alliance, and also too big to be integrated into the EU- although I would like to see Russia and Ukraine as part of the EU,not now, of course, but in a distant future.But the true is,the US would never accept a Europe too powerful and too big to escape its control.It is also good to remember that never before has a nuclear power been defeated in its history.
    --
    According to Reuters
    momentum has lately swung back towards Russia as it has made incremental gains for the first time since mid-2022.
    In Ukraine's Donbas, Intensifying Russian Offensives-- An Omen Of Things To Come? Guardian

    Indeed, conditions were worsening in Bakhmut for Ukrainian units, Konrad Muzyka, a Poland-based defense analyst, said.
    The overall situation in the Bakhmut area is deteriorating for Ukrainians, mainly because [the] Russians fire control the main supply roads leading to the city,” he wrote in an analysis on January 31. All but one [of the] ground lines of communication leading to Bakhmut are under Russian fire control— meaning exposed to artillery, rocket, or tank fire.
    Ukraine is on verge of losing Bahhmut and Zelensky says: “No one will hand over Bakhmut, fight as long as we can.Zelensky vows to defend 'fortress' Bakhmut

    In fact, Ukrainian forces are bracing for an imminent large-scale attack by Russian troops Russia Preparing Major Offensive, Ukrainian Military Says
    ---

    This is the question on the minds of many European politicians, Some kind of Russian defeat 'only way' to end war

    They can't imagine anything else but victory. But they should also ask themselves: is there some kind of Ukrainian defeat to end the war? Here, in Europe, it is even forbidden to think about it. It is the new TINA (There is No Alternative). Meanwhile, the American economy prospers while Europe goes to its knees, Ukraine is gradually destroyed, the fight against climate change goes back years, and the useful ignoramuses or pretenders proclaim that there is no other way but to continue the war indefinitely.
    Last edited by Ludicus; February 05, 2023 at 11:14 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  7. #7327
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Hungary
    Posts
    2,192

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    is there some kind of Ukrainian defeat to end the war?
    Is there?

  8. #7328
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    13,065

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Why not, all wars, soon or later, come to an end with negotiations involving compromises.
    ---
    Whether you agree or disagree with Pilger and Milne's perspectives is irrelevant to the fact that the authors could say things in the mainstream media in 2014 that they could never say in the mainstream media today. It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war -The Guardian
    In Ukraine, the US is dragging us towards war with Russia -The Guardian
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  9. #7329
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Hungary
    Posts
    2,192

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Why not, all wars, soon or later, come to an end with negotiations involving compromises.
    Why not? Because Russia is the one losing this war, thats why. Its Russia who should compromise.
    How could this war end with the defeat of the Ukrainians? You keep implying that this is the best way, so will you elaborate on that?

    btw lesser known fact that Russia is still at war with Japan.

  10. #7330
    Peresvet's Avatar Civis
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    russian, but emigrant from war
    Posts
    148

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    This is your fundamental, though well-intentioned, mistake.
    What could happen in case of Russia's defeat would be its disintegration.Russia will always be considered too big to be integrated into the US military alliance, and also too big to be integrated into the EU- although I would like to see Russia and Ukraine as part of the EU,not now, of course, but in a distant future.But the true is,the US would never accept a Europe too powerful and too big to escape its control.It is also good to remember that never before has a nuclear power been defeated in its history.
    the war in Ukraine is essentially Putin's revenge on the European Union, the United States and NATO for refusing to accept Russia into their structures and refusing to comply with his demands and succumb to his blackmail. There are no other real reasons. But in order to be accepted, you need to correspond to the level of the organization where you are going to join. Under Putin, Russia rapidly degraded in terms of civil society, democracy, the army remained weak and outdated, so NATO would have to spend a lot of money to rearm the Russian army in its composition. Nuclear weapons will not be used even if Russia is defeated in Ukraine, troops will simply be withdrawn. Putin is a thief, not a suicide. And after him, the new president will gradually improve relations with the West.
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

  11. #7331
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Cool and normal
    Posts
    5,419

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Why not, all wars, soon or later, come to an end with negotiations involving compromises.
    ---
    Whether you agree or disagree with Pilger and Milne's perspectives is irrelevant to the fact that the authors could say things in the mainstream media in 2014 that they could never say in the mainstream media today. It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war -The Guardian
    In Ukraine, the US is dragging us towards war with Russia -The Guardian
    A great many wars end in other ways. While you could argue that complete capitulation is a form of negotiated settlement, mass genocide or ethnic cleansing or mass enslavement or literal or metaphoric salting of the earth and many other non-negotiated settlements have occurred and would continue to occur if allowed unchecked.

    Currently, there are no legitimate grounds for a compromise settlement. Russia hasn't indicated that it is prepared to offer any terms other than coerced capitulation.

    I appreciate your perspective, that the most likely successful long term solution is negotiation. I just disagree that any of the parties involved are ready to seriously talk just now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Why not? Because Russia is the one losing this war, thats why. Its Russia who should compromise.
    How could this war end with the defeat of the Ukrainians? You keep implying that this is the best way, so will you elaborate on that?

    btw lesser known fact that Russia is still at war with Japan.
    Just remember that the Germans made their greatest advances of WW1 in spring 1918. By the years end their army had collapsed. Predictions of victory are never a good thing. Russia isn't losing the war. At least they don't believe they are. Which is why we don't see any serious offers of negotiation. They certainly aren't looking like winning right now, but we're a long way from anything like a defeat.
    Last edited by antaeus; February 05, 2023 at 05:02 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  12. #7332

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    NATO essentially exists to restrain Russian imperialism (in favour of US imperialism).
    There is no US imperialism or comparison between US policy and that of Russia. When The UK left the EU, even though the US asked them to reconsider, the US didn't invade Britain and start raping and murdering and capturing slaves.

    What do you suppose would happen to Belarus if they said they no longer wanted to be allied to Russia and were choosing to instead seek closer relations with the west?

    This attitude that everyone is just as bad as Russia is nothing more than Russian apologism. It's an excuse for Russia to bully and threaten and behave like an abusive partner because "everyone does it."

    On the subject of Russia joining NATO or the EU, that will never happen for the simple reason that Russia has nothing to offer. It has a tiny economy, massive pollution, a population that has never known and could never adjust to self-government without decades of effort with no guarantee it would stick, a huge and ever-worsening drug problem, spiraling rates of HIV and other STIs, and is so riddled with corruption that the problems listed are unfixable. That is why anyone with brains or talent can't get out fast enough, why the oligarchs send their kids to live in the west despite all of their bluster about how great Russia is.

  13. #7333
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,794

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Why not, all wars, soon or later, come to an end with negotiations involving compromises.
    That is manifestly an untruth Ludicus. WW2 did not end with any compromise just the dictates of the victors and what things they chose to accept or not do. Same for the Peloponnesian war. Same for A-stan. Trump negotiated his run away plan. But last I checked the Taliban simply defeated the isolated western backed Afghan government and rule on their own terms as they will.
    Last edited by conon394; February 06, 2023 at 12:49 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #7334
    Peresvet's Avatar Civis
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    russian, but emigrant from war
    Posts
    148

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    On the subject of Russia joining NATO or the EU, that will never happen for the simple reason that Russia has nothing to offer. It has a tiny economy, massive pollution, a population that has never known and could never adjust to self-government without decades of effort with no guarantee it would stick, a huge and ever-worsening drug problem, spiraling rates of HIV and other STIs, and is so riddled with corruption that the problems listed are unfixable. That is why anyone with brains or talent can't get out fast enough, why the oligarchs send their kids to live in the west despite all of their bluster about how great Russia is.
    Here I do not agree with you. There is a cheap labor force in Russia, people here are ready to work for 300-400 dollars, which is not acceptable for Europeans, even for the Chinese it is not enough. Also, Russia has a large amount of natural resources, forest, water and minerals. The European Union, having included Russia and its resources, could become stronger than the United States and China combined.
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

  15. #7335

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Why not? Because Russia is the one losing this war, thats why. Its Russia who should compromise.
    How could this war end with the defeat of the Ukrainians? You keep implying that this is the best way, so will you elaborate on that?

    btw lesser known fact that Russia is still at war with Japan.
    Really hope you are right here.

  16. #7336
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Hungary
    Posts
    2,192

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by glanmit View Post
    Really hope you are right here.
    What? Where?

  17. #7337
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    13,065

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    . WW2 did not end with any compromise just the dictates of the victors and what things they chose to accept or not do.
    You are right,there are always exceptions to the rule. But even in the WW2, there was a promise -not a compromise-, and I quote, "
    pertinent to the emperor was the pledge that after occupation and satisfactory demonstration that Japan was peaceful, the Japanese people would be free to choose their own form of government"
    .The Fate of Emperor Hirohito

    As far as Ukraine is concerned, Putin 'gave guarantee' he would not kill Zelensky at secret summit
    Russian President Vladimir Putin promised not to assassinate his Ukrainian counterpart Volodymyr Zelensky during a meeting with the former Israeli prime minister just weeks after his troops invaded last year.
    Naftali Bennett..He said he called Zelensky while he was still in Moscow on his way to the airport from the Kremlin to tell him that he was not under a death threat.
    “Are you sure,” he said Zelensky asked him. “One hundred per cent,” Bennett replied.
    ---
    With regard to the Peloponnesian War (I know you are an expert on the subject), yes, it was an unconditional surrender, but let's keep in mind that several attempts at peace were made, and these attempts divided the Peloponnesian War into three parts.
    --
    Edit. -as far as Afghanistan is concerned, the war ended with the withdrawal of Allied troops, and, if I remember well, the US was to get out of Afghanistan in 14 months and, in exchange, the Taliban agreed not to let Afghanistan become a haven for terrorists and to stop attacking U.S. service members. I don't call this an unconditional surrender of Afghan puppet troops.
    Anyway, most wars,sooner or later, end with a compromise. Ukraine is not winning this war, and is in danger of being completely destroyed.Once again, no nuclear power has lost a war that is supposed to be existential.As I have already mentioned, the West has bet so much on victory (but I don't know what that means, nor does anyone else) that will be difficult to Biden to assume a compromise.
    As Guterres says, “I fear the world is not sleepwalking into a wider war. I fear it is doing so with its eyes wide open.UN chief fears world is heading towards 'wider war' over

    ---
    There is a lot of talk about the Iranian weapons.
    "When it comes to American arms fueling foreign conflicts, our media has a tendency to fall into some serious double standards" Iranian weapons are more newsworthy than Made in USA killers

    Russia’s use of Iranian-made drones in the Ukraine war has garnered substantial attention in flagship US news outlets like the New York Times, Wall Street Journal and Washington Post. These papers’ first references to the matter came on July 11. Between then and the time of writing (January 24), the publications have run 215 pieces that mention Ukraine and the words “Iranian drones,” “Iranian-made drones,” “drones made in Iran” or minor variations on these phrases. That’s more than one mention per day over six-and-a-half months.
    The fact that some of Russia’s drones are made in Iran is not only frequently mentioned, but is often featured in headlines like “Iran to Send Hundreds of Drones to Russia for Use in Ukraine, US Says” (Washington Post, 7/11/22), “Ukraine Warns of Growing Attacks by Drones Iran Has Supplied to Russia” (New York Times, 9/25/22) and “Russia’s Iranian Drones Pose Growing Threat to Ukraine” (Wall Street Journal, 10/18/22).
    Drones are, of course, just one type of weapons export among many, and US-made armaments have not received similar coverage when they are implicated in the slaughter of innocents.
    US-made bombs in Gaza
    One example is Israel’s May 10–21, 2021, bombing of Gaza. According to the United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, the Israeli military killed approximately 245 Palestinians, including 63 children, and “totally destroyed or severely damaged” more than 2,000 housing units:
    An estimated 15,000 housing units sustained some degree of damage, as did multiple water and sanitation facilities and infrastructure, 58 education facilities, nine hospitals and 19 primary healthcare centers. The damage to infrastructure has exacerbated Gaza’s chronic infrastructure and power deficits, resulting in a decrease of clean water and sewage treatment, and daily power cuts of 18–20 hours, affecting hundreds of thousands.
    Israel’s attack was carried out with an arsenal replete with US weaponry. From 2009–20, more than 70% of Israel’s major conventional arms purchases came from the US; according to Andrew Smith of the Campaign Against the Arms Trade, Israel’s “major combat aircraft come from the US,” notably including the F-16 fighter jets that were bombarding Gaza at the time (Middle East Eye, 5/18/21). As the Congressional Research Service (11/16/20) noted six months before the attack on Gaza, Israel has received more cumulative US foreign assistance than any other country since World War II:
    To date, the United States has provided Israel $146 billion (current, or non-inflation-adjusted, dollars) in bilateral assistance and missile defense funding. At present, almost all US bilateral aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance.
    I searched the databases of the Times, Journal and Post for the equivalent terms I used for the Iranian drones used in Ukraine, and added analogous terms. In the one-month period beginning May 10, just 15 articles in these papers mentioned Israel’s use of US weapons, approximately half as many stories as have been published on the Russian use of Iranian-made drones each month.
    ‘Strongly backing’ attacks on Yemen
    A grisly case from the ongoing Yemen war is another worthwhile comparison for how Iranian weapons exports and their US counterparts are covered. On January 21, 2022, the US/Saudi/Emirati/British/Canadian coalition in Yemen bombed a prison in Sa’adah, killing at least 80 people and injuring more than 200. The US weapons-maker Raytheon manufactured the bomb used in the atrocity.
    In coverage from the month following the attack, I find evidence of only two articles in the three papers that link the slaughter and US weapons. A New York Times story (1/21/22) raised the possibility that US-made bombs killed people in Sa’adah:
    It was unclear whether the weapons used in the airstrikes had been provided by the United States, which in recent years has been by far the largest arms seller to Saudi Arabia and the [United Arab] Emirates, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, which monitors weapons transfers.
    The one piece that explicitly pointed to US culpability in the Sa’adah massacre was an op-ed in the Washington Post (1/26/22) that referred to “ample evidence showing US weapons used in the attack.” Thus the Wall Street Journal didn’t consider US participation in a mass murder that killed 80 people to be newsworthy, and the Times and Post evidently concluded that US involvement merited minimal attention. The Post (1/21/22) even ran an article that misleadingly suggested the US had ceased to be a major factor in the war:
    The United States once strongly backed the Saudi-led coalition. But President Biden announced early last year that Washington would withdraw support for the coalition’s offensive operations, which have been blamed for the deaths of thousands of civilians. The Trump administration had previously halted US refueling of Saudi jets operating against the Houthis. Some members of Congress had long expressed outrage over US involvement in the war, including weapons sales to Saudi Arabia.
    Yet mere weeks before Sa’adah killings, Congress signed off on a Biden-approved $650 million weapons sale to Saudi Arabia (Al Jazeera, 12/8/21). That means Washington is still “strongly back[ing]” the coalition, notwithstanding the hollow claims that such weapons are defensive (In These Times, 11/22/21).
    ‘Expanding threat’
    The coverage of Iran’s weapons exports and the US’s also diverges in terms of the analyses that the outlets offer.
    David Ignatius told his Washington Post (8/24/22) readers to “beware the emerging Tehran/Moscow alliance.” In the periods I examined, there is a marked shortage of articles urging readers to “beware” the Washington/Tel Aviv or Washington/Riyadh alliances, despise the bloodshed they facilitate.
    The Wall Street Journal (10/28/22) contended that
    Russia’s expanding use of Iranian drones in Ukraine poses an increasing threat for the US and its European allies as Tehran attempts to project military power beyond the Middle East.
    The article went on to say that “the Western-made components that guide, power and steer the [Iranian] drones touch on a vexing problem world leaders face in trying to contain the expanding threat.” The piece cited Norman Roule, formerly of the CIA,
    warn[ing] that the combination of drones and missiles one day might be used against Western powers. “This Ukraine conflict provides Iran with a unique and low-risk opportunity to test its weapons systems against modern Western defenses,” Mr. Roule said.
    The US weapons that helped lay waste to Gaza and snuff out dozens of prisoners in Sa’adah are barely presented as having harmed their victims, and not at all as an “increasing” or “expanding” threat to rival powers such as Russia or China, or to anyone else.
    ‘Malign behavior’
    In the New York Times (11/1/22), Bret Stephens contended that the Biden
    administration should warn Iran’s leaders that their UAV factories will be targeted and destroyed if they continue to provide kamikaze drones to Russia, in flat violation of UN Security Council Resolution 2231. If Tehran can get away with being an accessory to mass murder in Ukraine, it will never have any reason to fear the United States for any of its malign behavior. Every country should be put on notice that the price for helping Moscow in its slaughter will be steep.
    Of course, the UN charter does not give individual countries the right to attack other nations they perceive as violating UN Security Council resolutions. And needless to say, the Times, Journal and Post do not say that US responsibility for mass murder in Palestine and Yemen means that weapons factories in the US should be “targeted and destroyed” by a hostile power. Nor do they suggest that the US should be “put on notice” that there will be a “steep” “price for helping” Tel Aviv or Riyadh in their “slaughter.”
    William B. Taylor and David J. Kramer argue in the Post (12/6/22) that Iranian drones are among the few “Russian weapons that work,” and that the US needs to “provid[e] Ukraine with missile defense, anti-drone and antiaircraft systems.” None of the articles I examined said that anyone should give military hardware to the Palestinians or Yemenis for protection against US-made weapons.
    If these outlets’ concern about Iranian arms exports to Russia were about the sanctity of human life, there wouldn’t be such a gap between the volume and character of this coverage compared to that of US weapons piling up corpses in Palestine and Yemen. Instead, corporate media have focused on how official enemies enact violence and downplayed that which their own country inflicts.
    Last edited by Ludicus; February 07, 2023 at 11:29 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  18. #7338
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Israel
    Posts
    6,398

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Ukraine is not winning this war, and is in danger of being completely destroyed.
    You're right that there is a threat of Ukraine being completely destroyed, that is exactly what will happen if Ukraine surrenders. That's why it isn't.
    Once again, no nuclear power has lost a war that is supposed to be existential.
    This is not an existential war. When Russia loses this war it will not cease to exist. There is no threat to Russia from Ukraine.
    As I have already mentioned, the West has bet so much on victory (but I don't know what that means, nor does anyone else)
    It means Russia getting the fck out of Ukraine and going home.
    that will be difficult to Biden to assume a compromise.
    This has nothing whatsoever to do with Biden. Only the fascist with the long table can end this war.
    "When it comes to American arms fueling foreign conflicts, our media has a tendency to fall into some serious double standards" Iranian weapons are more newsworthy than Made in USA killers
    That's because Ukraine isn't using US weapons to target civilians. Russia is doing just that with Iranian weapons. Civilians are Russia's primary target. Russia uses the UN's list of what makes a war crime as a to-do list.

  19. #7339
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    17,268

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    You are right,there are always exceptions to the rule. But even in the WW2, there was a promise -not a compromise-, and I quote, " .[URL="https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/what-happened-to-emperor-hirohito"]The Fate of Emperor Hirohito
    You do know Japan had absolutely no say in whenever Hirohito stayed? That choice was MacArthur's.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirohito

    U.S. General Douglas MacArthur insisted that Emperor Hirohito retain the throne. MacArthur saw the Emperor as a symbol of the continuity and cohesion of the Japanese people. Some historians criticize the decision to exonerate the Emperor and all members of the imperial family who were implicated in the war, such as Prince Chichibu, Prince Asaka, Prince Higashikuni, and Prince Hiroyasu Fushimi, from criminal prosecutions.[97]
    There was no compromise. In fact is solely due to General MacArthur that Hirohito wasn't tried for war crimes.

  20. #7340
    Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    8,355

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    You do know Japan had absolutely no say in whenever Hirohito stayed? That choice was MacArthur's.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirohito



    There was no compromise. In fact is solely due to General MacArthur that Hirohito wasn't tried for war crimes.
    I thought Hirohito's retention was a sort of preconditional to the unconditional surrender? It's been a while since I read up on this.

    Certainly wars end in many ways, and some bubble on forgotten in the background, so in this case the compromise may be among the victors?

    [edit] i do agree with your basic point, that this war's outcome is not predetermined in some dialectical way.

    I am heartily sick of the chain clanking "Russian Winter, ooooh! The Bear always wins! Urghhhhh!" going on from Putin's apologists. The merest acquaintance with Russian history (which is about as much as I can claim) shows Russia periodically collapses and liquidates much of its ruling class, often after a stupid military adventure.

    I am also aware of several layers of irony here, as I myself assumed the Russian victory would be sealed in a week and have now been persuaded (by recent events rather than much in the way of logical argument) that Russian defeat is likely. I suppose I'm not atypical of a western observer, so at least the West is winning the propaganda war, supported by actual military actions (unlike the absurd Russia Stronk/Bear Warrior memes) and the average Cyclops in the street supports military aid to Ukraine until they win.

    I understand Putin would like the West to give up on Ukraine but maybe we'd like to see Mukden 2, Electric Boogaloo instead? Horrific losses are likely for Ukraine but that's a sacrifice Washington is willing to make. Ukraine as a loyal Eastern European ally is a strong move for the US, seems like another arrow in the same quiver as Poland, and reminds Türkiye and the Magyars to be polite. It would not be as evil a fate as Belarus has, enslaved to a bumbling kleptocrat himself in bondage to another kleptocrat (whose non-bumbling status is currently under review).
    Last edited by Cyclops; February 08, 2023 at 10:27 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •