View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    103 69.59%
  • I support Russia fully.

    15 10.14%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.70%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.43%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.73%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.41%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #7281
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I live in a country with a relatively free market. People here profit off my health care. They profit off my coffin. They profit off my food, and my water. Why should I care if an arms industry profits off war?

    You're going to have to come up with a better argument against my sense of empathy than the same old arms industry fluff.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  2. #7282

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    If you don't care that people make wild profits for the very reason that the same people buy off your government and set up your healthcare system to be and not help sick people unless they can pay through the nose, I'd say your sense of empathy is warped beyond any argument I could make.
    Furthermore I believe capitalism must be destroyed.

  3. #7283
    Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Camcolit View Post
    When are people going to get tired of 'The next Hitler must be stopped' 'Defensive war' routine? Haven't you seen this already several times even in your own lifetime, not to mention you're all players of historical war games and therefore presumably familiar with how it goes for thousands of years.

    Sending tanks today, what's tomorrow, send them nukes?

    Russia can't afford to lose this war, it's politically impossible, even if big bad evil genius Herr Putin were somehow overthrown. The more weapons are shipped, the more they will escalate, simple as.

    You're all being played by the arms industry who are making out like bandits as usual and 'democracy' has nothing to do with it.
    So if we let Ukraine fall, the only consequence will be the stock market suffers a little?

    I mean last time we didn't bother to oppose Putin, and...he did it again. So just saying, seems like this isn't just an arms industry issue.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  4. #7284

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Camcolit View Post
    Russia can't afford to lose this war, it's politically impossible, even if big bad evil genius Herr Putin were somehow overthrown. The more weapons are shipped, the more they will escalate, simple as.

    You're all being played by the arms industry who are making out like bandits as usual and 'democracy' has nothing to do with it.
    Poor Russians and their lackeys. First they invade and now complain that we are stupid and mean because we offer resistance.

    How about instead giving an ultimatum to Russia to vacate all areas belonging to Ukraine. And any Russian formations remaining after a fair and manageable deadline would be fair game for a coalition of western militaries and particularly their air forces. That would expedite matters.

  5. #7285

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    Poor Russians and their lackeys. First they invade and now complain that we are stupid and mean because we offer resistance.

    How about instead giving an ultimatum to Russia to vacate all areas belonging to Ukraine. And any Russian formations remaining after a fair and manageable deadline would be fair game for a coalition of western militaries and particularly their air forces. That would expedite matters.
    It would certainly expedite matters toward a nuclear war, but more people seem fine with that these days. It's hilarious but sad how people most of whom who couldn't find Ukraine on a map 2 years ago are suddenly ready to destroy the world for it.

    This is while ignoring the truly impressive hypocrisy of talk of absolute humanitarian ultimatums to states who occupy land militarily.
    Furthermore I believe capitalism must be destroyed.

  6. #7286

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Camcolit View Post
    It would certainly expedite matters toward a nuclear war, but more people seem fine with that these days. It's hilarious but sad how people most of whom who couldn't find Ukraine on a map 2 years ago are suddenly ready to destroy the world for it.
    There is nothing hilarious about it, but shoot away. No more Russia then. Giving into nuclear blackmail because of some petty dictator is going to set the world on a very bad course.

    You really show your cards arguing that Russia should be given what it wants because of arms industry, nuclear war, and [insert anything that comes to your mind next here]. No one is destroying anything over Ukraine except Russia. I can see through your attempts of passing the blame to the side that did not initiate violence. It's not working.

  7. #7287
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    First artillery, then tanks, then warplanes, then what? Responsible Statecraft

    …Leading commentators (including at the U.S. Helsinki Commission) and East European governments have declared openly that complete Russian defeat in Ukraine should be sought in order to bring down the Putin regime.

    Some have called for this in turn to lead to the “decolonization” of Russia, code for the break-up of the Russian Federation and the destruction of the Russian state.
    Given that these advocates of Western assistance for complete Russian defeat also portray Putin as a dictator determined to maintain his own hold on power irrespective of the costs to Russia and the world; and portray Russian nationalism as intrinsically and irredeemably tied to imperialism and military aggression, it is very hard to see why they also believe that faced with the threat of complete defeat, the Russian government would not in fact escalate by some form of attack on NATO.

    Analyzing on the basis of reality and reciprocity, a simple thought exercise is in order: Supposing the United States were fighting a war close to its own borders, with stakes that many members of the U.S. government and political elites believed – right or wrong – were existential for America’s survival as a great power or even as a united country; and supposing a hostile great power were massively and increasingly arming America’s enemy, leading to the deaths of tens of thousands of American troops and the risk of complete defeat. Would Washington refrain permanently from some form of harsh retaliation?

    Perhaps it would — but I really would not like to bet on it, least of all if the stakes risked being raised and raised until in the end human civilization itself were on the table.
    ---
    ---
    One of RAND's best-known documents concerning the Ukrainian conflict is the report Extending Russia: Competing from Advantageous Ground

    This strategy goes hand in hand with the Russian Federation's "Yugoslavization" strategy. And why is it important to talk about this today? It is important because in recent days a new paper from the RAND Corporation was published, but this time in the opposite direction, a study entitled.U.S. Policy and the Trajectory of the Russia-Ukraine Conflict


    Highlights,

    How does this end?
    Increasingly, this question is dominating discussion of the Russia-Ukraine war in Washington and other Western capitals… Negotiations on ending the conflict have been suspended since May… This war is the most significant interstate conflict in decades, and its evolution will have major consequences for the United States. It is appropriate to assess how this conflict may evolve, what alternative trajectories might mean for U.S. interests, and what Washington can do to promote a trajectory that best serves U.S. interests. Some analysts make the case that the war is heading toward an outcome that would benefit the United States and Ukraine. Ukraine had battlefield momentum as of December 2022 and could conceivably fight until it succeeds in pushing the Russian military out of the country. Proponents of this view argue that the risks of Russian nuclear use or a war with the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) will remain manageable.

    Once it is forced out of Ukraine, a chastened Russia would have little choice but to leave its neighbor in peace—and even pay reparations for the damage it caused. However, studies of past conflicts and a close look at the course of this one suggest that this optimistic scenario is improbable. In this Perspective, therefore, we explore possible trajectories that the Russia-Ukraine war could take and how they might affect U.S. interests…

    An important caveat: This Perspective focuses on U.S. interests, which often align with but are not synonymous with Ukrainian interests... the U.S. government nevertheless has an obligation to its citizens to determine how different war trajectories would affect U.S. interests and explore options for influencing the course of the war to promote those interests.
    …Since neither side appears to have the intention or capabilities to achieve absolute victory, the war will most likely end with some sort of negotiated outcome.

    Territorial control, although immensely important to Ukraine, is not the most important dimension of the war’s future for the United States. We conclude that, in addition to averting possible escalation to a Russia-NATO war or Russian nuclear use, avoiding a long war is also a higher priority for the United States than facilitating significantly more Ukrainian territorial control.
    If the previous article pointed to goals of a long-lasting conflict that would exhaust Russian energies so that the obstacle could be removed by force if necessary, this time the published study points to a cost-benefit analysis between the costs and risks of a long war with Moscow and the benefits and losses that the U.S. might derive from a trajectory that is expected to intensify toward a direct confrontation. Something has changed, and in what ways! First it was the triumphalism and destruction of the Russian threat; now it is said that a long conflict brings risks and costs that prevent the U.S. from focusing on more pressing priorities. The problem is that Biden has taken the west in such a direction and speed that it seems to me that it is not possible to turn back or reverse the direction.
    Last edited by Ludicus; January 31, 2023 at 04:36 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  8. #7288
    reavertm's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    The problem is that Biden Putin has taken the west in such a direction and speed that it seems to me that it is not possible to turn back or reverse the direction.
    I fixed it for you. You're welcome.

  9. #7289
    Peresvet's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Camcolit View Post
    It would certainly expedite matters toward a nuclear war, but more people seem fine with that these days. It's hilarious but sad how people most of whom who couldn't find Ukraine on a map 2 years ago are suddenly ready to destroy the world for it.

    This is while ignoring the truly impressive hypocrisy of talk of absolute humanitarian ultimatums to states who occupy land militarily.
    At the moment, Ukrainian troops are in territory that Russia considers its own. According to the Russian Constitution, nuclear weapons should already be used against Ukraine, since there was an occupation of Russian lands, from the point of view of Russia. But we do not see this, because putin is a coward and will never use nuclear weapons. Even if Ukraine strikes at Moscow.
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

  10. #7290
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Camcolit View Post
    If you don't care that people make wild profits for the very reason that the same people buy off your government and set up your healthcare system to be and not help sick people unless they can pay through the nose, I'd say your sense of empathy is warped beyond any argument I could make.
    Profit driven industry is very good at generating vast resources and growth. You can argue that this isn't the best path for societies to be on. But that's a general anti-capitalist argument and that's for another thread.

    Within the context of a war of self defence - which this war is for Ukraine - profit driven arms industries are exceptionally good at turning demand into supply. Ukraine has a demand that they can't meet, western industries have supply. You can make an appeal to emotion if you like, but that won't help the millions and maybe billions of dead that you'll get if you allow nuclear blackmail to get mixed up with 19th century style imperialism of might=right - and that does seem to be what you're suggesting giving in to. That's how we ended up with the First World War.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  11. #7291
    StarDreamer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Let's be frank, the drain on resources the Ukraine war is causing in the west is insignificant in the grand scheme of things. The chaos unleashed by giving in to Russia would cause disruptions and damage to the economy several orders of magnitude greater than any support of Ukraine would cause. Supporting Ukraine is the morally right thing to do. It is the economically right thing to do. It is also the right thing to do avoid future wars(and the magnitude of those wars). Thanks to the nuclear blackmail attempted by the Kremlin, this point is ever more important. It is politically and militarily the right thing to do, as the Kremlin has made clear this is not just about Ukraine.

    To convince me that I would be wrong in all these points is what would be required for me to change my stance of support for Ukraine. Russian imperialism has to die on the fields of Ukraine.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
    https://www.politicalcompass.org/ana...2.38&soc=-3.44 <-- "Dangerous far right bigot!" -SJWs

  12. #7292

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Peresvet View Post
    At the moment, Ukrainian troops are in territory that Russia considers its own. According to the Russian Constitution, nuclear weapons should already be used against Ukraine, since there was an occupation of Russian lands, from the point of view of Russia. But we do not see this, because putin is a coward and will never use nuclear weapons. Even if Ukraine strikes at Moscow.
    I see that just because you are from a country doesn't necessarily mean you know anything about its constitution, but we already knew that from American examples.
    Furthermore I believe capitalism must be destroyed.

  13. #7293

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Profit driven industry is very good at generating vast resources and growth. You can argue that this isn't the best path for societies to be on. But that's a general anti-capitalist argument and that's for another thread.

    Within the context of a war of self defence - which this war is for Ukraine - profit driven arms industries are exceptionally good at turning demand into supply. Ukraine has a demand that they can't meet, western industries have supply. You can make an appeal to emotion if you like, but that won't help the millions and maybe billions of dead that you'll get if you allow nuclear blackmail to get mixed up with 19th century style imperialism of might=right - and that does seem to be what you're suggesting giving in to. That's how we ended up with the First World War.
    You brought up the profit and free market issue and now say it's for another thread.

    Might makes right has been practiced and is being practiced right now by the US and its allies/clients on a continuous basis all around the world. Why the sudden concern? Historical (and even contemporary) amnesia is impressively deployed every time someone not approved of starts a war.

    You don't need to link to 'appeal to emotion' like a 17 year old who has just discovered principles of informal logic and thinks nobody else has. Leave that to Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson et. al.
    Furthermore I believe capitalism must be destroyed.

  14. #7294
    Peresvet's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Camcolit View Post
    I see that just because you are from a country doesn't necessarily mean you know anything about its constitution, but we already knew that from American examples.

    Especially for leftists who have no idea about Russian laws:


    Article 59 of the Constitution of the Russian Federation


    The defense of the country is a system of political, economic, military, social, legal and other measures to prepare for armed defense and the armed defense of Russia, the integrity and inviolability of its territory. The goals and state strategy in this area at the present stage are defined in the National Security Concept, approved. Decree of the President of December 17, 1997 (SZ RF. 1997. N 52. Art. 5909), and in the Military Doctrine, approved. Decree of the President of April 21, 2000 (SZ RF. 2000. N 17. Art. 1852).


    Source: https://constitutionrf.ru/rzd-1/gl-2/st-59-krf


    According to the new edition of the military doctrine, the Russian Federation reserves the right to use nuclear weapons in response to the use of nuclear and other types of weapons of mass destruction against it and (or) its allies, as well as in the event of aggression against the Russian Federation with the use of conventional weapons, when the very existence of the state.

    https://rg.ru/documents/2014/12/30/doktrina-dok.html
    Last edited by Peresvet; February 01, 2023 at 10:01 AM.
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

  15. #7295
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future



    @Camcolit
    You're right, we have seen this before. From Russia. No one did anything. Russia kept invading new states. This cannot be allowed to continue.

  16. #7296

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Peresvet View Post
    Especially for leftists who have no idea about Russian laws:


    Article 59 of the Constitution of the Russian Federation


    The defense of the country is a system of political, economic, military, social, legal and other measures to prepare for armed defense and the armed defense of Russia, the integrity and inviolability of its territory. The goals and state strategy in this area at the present stage are defined in the National Security Concept, approved. Decree of the President of December 17, 1997 (SZ RF. 1997. N 52. Art. 5909), and in the Military Doctrine, approved. Decree of the President of April 21, 2000 (SZ RF. 2000. N 17. Art. 1852).


    Source: https://constitutionrf.ru/rzd-1/gl-2/st-59-krf


    According to the new edition of the military doctrine, the Russian Federation reserves the right to use nuclear weapons in response to the use of nuclear and other types of weapons of mass destruction against it and (or) its allies, as well as in the event of aggression against the Russian Federation with the use of conventional weapons, when the very existence of the state.

    https://rg.ru/documents/2014/12/30/doktrina-dok.html
    Yes, when the very existence of the State is threatened / at risk, which you cut out half of and didn't put in bold. In legal texts, you can't actually pick and emphasize some words that you like and leave out the ones you don't.

    Not even the loony hawk wing in Russia has made the case that Ukraine occupying land that Russia claims but hasn't occupied yet justifies use of nuclear weapons under that provision of the constitution. They have made the case that nuclear weapons be used anyway, regardless of the constitution, which is different. The actual Russian government has been pretty clear on use of nuclear weapons and their desire not to escalate, and their doomsday crazies have been shot down.

    We don't listen to randomers in the US spouting off from the comfort of their armchairs about nuking this and that and consider it US government policy. Thankfully, as there are quite a few and the number is growing.
    Furthermore I believe capitalism must be destroyed.

  17. #7297

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Talking about Russian constitution or international law in context of this war is honestly irrelevant. Putin has shown that he's above Russian law and can violate it with impunity, and international law doesn't have handle on him.

    Fortunately, there's still nuclear chain of command that prevents him from unilaterally launching the nukes, and the fact that he surrounded himself with spineless, self-serving bootlickers (which is inevitability in any dictatorship) means that they'll never consent to spitefully burn it all and if faced with inevitable, they'll choose an option that'll allow them to keep their lives, even if it means removing Putin by force.

  18. #7298
    Peresvet's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Talking about Russian constitution or international law in context of this war is honestly irrelevant. Putin has shown that he's above Russian law and can violate it with impunity, and international law doesn't have handle on him.

    Fortunately, there's still nuclear chain of command that prevents him from unilaterally launching the nukes, and the fact that he surrounded himself with spineless, self-serving bootlickers (which is inevitability in any dictatorship) means that they'll never consent to spitefully burn it all and if faced with inevitable, they'll choose an option that'll allow them to keep their lives, even if it means removing Putin by force.
    Knowing the population of Russia, I have great doubts about your argument. At present, they are so zombified by propaganda that they are quite capable of committing suicide on putin's orders. The war with Ukraine itself was already suicidal, but hundreds of thousands of people go to certain death, to mobilize, despite the fact that there are a huge number of videos on the Internet where a huge number of russian soldiers and equipment were destroyed in the first months of the war.
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

  19. #7299

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Peresvet View Post
    Knowing the population of Russia, I have great doubts about your argument. At present, they are so zombified by propaganda that they are quite capable of committing suicide on putin's orders. The war with Ukraine itself was already suicidal, but hundreds of thousands of people go to certain death, to mobilize, despite the fact that there are a huge number of videos on the Internet where a huge number of russian soldiers and equipment were destroyed in the first months of the war.
    Your average mobiks maybe, but I'm talking about people like Shoigu, Gerasimov, Bortnikov...the Putin's "yes men". They're the kind of scum that naturally floats upwards in the corrupt oligarchies like Russia. Unscrupulous, backstabbing, and when needed bootlicking self-serving products of decades of institutionalized corruption. They're the ones who can really prevent Putin from reaching for WMDs, and in the unlikely event he'll try it, they'll save their lives the only way possible...

  20. #7300
    Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Can we post the law about mobilization I think Putin violated next? Does it require a state of war to be enacted? Asking for a tyrant.

    As for Russia nuking existential threats, wouldn't the biggest threat to the existence of the Russian state RN be the short cancerous guy in the Kremlin? Better not put the AI in charge, it might make some cold calculations.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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