View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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133. You may not vote on this poll
  • I support Ukraine fully.

    92 69.17%
  • I support Russia fully.

    14 10.53%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 3.01%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    8 6.02%
  • Not sure.

    7 5.26%
  • I don't care.

    8 6.02%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #7181
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    I think you are working a bit to hard to defend the German Chancellor. In broad strokes yes the US and all NATO have sorta backed into aiding Ukraine on a sliding scale. But the US is for example on the verge of upping the range of Ukraine's fires with the GLSDB. But also be fair as we saw with the stinger the US has nether infinite wide pipelines in production nor stockpiles to draw down and the US unlike Germany does have other concerns - China, North Korea, Iran etc. The ATACMS rounds the US has are actually a really small stockpile and the replacement is not even being produced yet. Of course the US could and maybe should transfer the cluster munition version but not sure how the optics on that are. Compare again I don't have the figure as handy as the HIMARS rounds but I suspect the amount of Excalibur rounds the US has handed over is not exactly making the some people in the pentagon happy and suspect the replacement process is not as easy as clicking on amazon one click The problem with Germany dragging on the Leopard is a conventual useful tool. Its logistical and repair chain would be short and the people giving them are not risking anything by doing so and can provided immediately. And now is the time they need to be provided so Ukraine has time to train crews.
    Actually, if you go back and read, I said I agreed that more and heavier weapons are required.

    What I don't think is helpful, is suggesting that one ally is in Russia's pocket despite sending more aid than any other country except the US. Effectively saying that none of that matters unless they give tanks.

    Which is blatantly untrue. Ramping up the pressure like this on Scholz gives him no room to back down without either losing face at home, or abroad. Sure those two options make us feel good and justified, but they don't make politicians do things. It would be hella easy for the US to give a token number of Abrams or what ever other bone Scholz is asking for as a face saver. Use the Abrams as garden features if they're not the right tool. Just move the conversation along in a way that will work, rather than entrench disagreement.
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  2. #7182
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    12 Leopards are useless without regulary supply of ammunition and spare parts, who will provide them Finland?

    I guess not.

    And Ukraine has some 300 - 500 T 72 und T90, they need no pr actions. They need air defence to not let their Infrastructure destroyed.
    That "und" seemed ominous ^^
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  3. #7183
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    12 Leopards are useless without regulary supply of ammunition and spare parts, who will provide them Finland?

    I guess not.

    And Ukraine has some 300 - 500 T 72 und T90, they need no pr actions. They need air defence to not let their Infrastructure destroyed.
    Considering the amount of European countries that possess Leopard 2s there are plenty of countries available that could provide maintenance or spare parts themselves. Poland itself is an operator and definitely maintains it's own Leopard 2s.

    Considering NATO already provides maintenance for the variety of artillery and armored vehicles the Ukrainians have received I see absolutely no reason why the same could not be provided for Leopard 2s.

    Ukraine possesses a handful of captured T-90s that is has never operated and likely has no spare parts for. T-72s are obsolete tanks. None of the T-72s that Ukraine possess could match Western tanks. The T-80s they possess are old hand me downs from the Soviet Union.

    Ukraine is being provided air defenses already. That's not the issue anymore. Ukraine needs tanks to go on the offensive. Air defenses aren't going to help the Ukrainians reclaim their land.
    Last edited by Vanoi; January 21, 2023 at 02:16 PM.

  4. #7184
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    Germany was one of the founding nations in 1950, who built up the EU. 1

    It paid 25,1 billion € to EU in 2021. 2

    What did Finland to help Ukraine? 3

    Donating some DDR Howitzers donated to Finland by Germany?

    How many refugees live there? 4

    And now 12 old Leopards, which then must be maintained by Germany.

    Big words no deeds so far.
    1. Great, good job not being left halfway between two blocks, you must be proud.

    2. Finland is and has always been a net-contributor to the EU as long as we've been part of it, barking at the wrong tree here.

    3. We take in any Ukrainian refugee that comes here, doesn't mean everyone feels comfortable to come here. Not the easiest language to learn.

    4. We've donated quite a bit more than that, what we have donated is not disclosed. The amount of military support is 590 million €. I haven't looked into how much other support we've given, but I doubt it is insignificant.

    And to finish, don't take frustrations with your goverment as a attack on yourself. There are politicians there that haven't suffered from Scholz's indecision and pride.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
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  5. #7185
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    You two (Edit: Vanoi & Morticia) speak in binary terms again, which makes both of you partly wrong and partly right.

    Ukraine's Soviet and derived equipment - including tanks will continue to be the major part of it's forces - and the US has stated that they are continuing to source these tanks and supplies because they are so easy to deploy. For this conflict, there will always be more Soviet era tanks in Ukraine's forces and this is an important consideration that can't be forgotten about. Ukraine has expertise in making them, let alone maintaining them.

    But Leopard 2s are a long term transition option that is more attractive than any other western tank because of how easy it would be to develop support structures given existing infrastructure in Poland and across Europe. But this is a massive undertaking, on a scale of magnitude greater than deploying artillery systems.

    We will likely see both in action.
    Last edited by antaeus; January 21, 2023 at 02:43 PM.
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  6. #7186
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    You two speak in binary terms again, which makes both of you partly wrong and partly right.

    Ukraine's Soviet and derived equipment - including tanks will continue to be the major part of it's forces - and the US has stated that they are continuing to source these tanks and supplies because they are so easy to deploy. For this conflict, there will always be more Soviet era tanks in Ukraine's forces and this is an important consideration that can't be forgotten about. Ukraine has expertise in making them, let alone maintaining them.

    But Leopard 2s are a long term transition option that is more attractive than any other western tank because of how easy it would be to develop support structures given existing infrastructure in Poland and across Europe. But this is a massive undertaking, on a scale of magnitude greater than deploying artillery systems.

    We will likely see both in action.
    This article will explain.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/how-germa...223212660.html

    Here is some great snips of the article:

    If all other countries had contributed in the same way as Denmark, the Ukrainians would be in a much better position right now,” Danish Defense Minister Jakob Ellemann-Jensen boasted in regard to his country’s astounding disclosure that it was donating its entire stock of 19 CAESAR 155-millimeter self-propelled howitzers to Ukraine.
    Denmark donated it's entire stock of CAESAR artillery. Not even France itself has provided more than that.

    Indeed, Estonia’s Prime Minister Kaja Kallas tweeted yesterday that her Baltic nation, with a population of just 1.3 million and a shared 183-mile border with Russia, was now donating more than 1% of its gross national product to Kyiv. Estonia's latest security assistance package, according to Kaimo Kuusk, Estonia’s ambassador to Kyiv, includes all of the Estonia armed forces’ FH70 towed howitzers.
    Estonia providing 1% of it's GDP just to help Ukraine.

    Why are the T-72s not enough for Ukraine?
    Even before Russia’s Feb. 24, 2022, invasion, Kyiv had long sought Western tanks, only to be told, in effect, “Yeah, right.” These vehicles are notorious gas-guzzlers and logistical nightmares, and are not easy to repair by native armies at peace, much less foreign ones in the throes of combat. Although Ukraine still has a large number of ex-Soviet tanks in its arsenal, the strains of war have taken a heavy toll over the past year. Moreover, sourcing spare parts to keep their remaining tanks operational and their 125-millimeter Soviet-caliber shells firing is a serious challenge, considering that Russia and its allies continue to be the main producers of both.
    Ukraine is actually having trouble sourcing parts and ammunition for it's T-72s despite its own stocks and what it has captured on the battlefield.

    In a further sign that Berlin was forfeiting the mantle of the European leadership it always believed it deserved, on Thursday, Wallace, along with representatives from Estonia, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Denmark, the Czech Republic, the Netherlands and Slovakia, released a joint statement in Tallinn, Estonia, calling for the Ukrainians to be provided with the equipment Ukraine needs to win the war. Main battle tanks were the first item on the list. The Dutch have now even offered to pay for the Leopard 2s.
    The Dutch are offering to buy Leopard 2s for Ukraine. Still nothing from the Germans.

    The smaller militaries are showing up countries like France and Germany in what they are willing to provide Ukraine despite their militaries being much smaller in comparison. Even entire stocks of some of their weapons. The Germans and French have provided a lot but that does not mean they are providing the same proportion as others have.

    Last quote.
    Vogel added that one reason for Germany’s self-contradictory (and self-flagellating) policy making on Ukraine is that the government is heavily siloed along partisan or ideological lines. Scholz maintains a team of his own hand-selected foreign policy advisers, culled from the ranks of his Social Democratic Party, who work independently of the German Foreign Ministry, which is controlled by the Green Party. The environmentally driven Greens see Moscow and the Kremlin’s weaponized export industry for gas and oil as international security threats to Europe. Thus, the Greens been far more bullish on helping Ukraine fend off its invaders. “If this were up to the Greens, Ukraine would already have Leopards,” Vogel said.
    The biggest obstacle is Scholz and the SDP. The Green Party would have already sent Leopard 2s.

  7. #7187

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    In August 2022 952.000 Ukrainian refugees lived in Germany (now 999.000).

    ...

    What did Finland to help Ukraine?

    ...

    How many refugees live there?
    This was about Germany, nominally a NATO country, undermining western interests because of their interests with Russia. This was not about Finland, that is not colluding with the enemy at least now. But I'll try to answer your questions.

    There are only 700,000 + Ukrainian refugees in Finland if we adjust for the population of the receiving society, so that is somewhat fewer than in Germany that hosts 1,000,000+.

    As for financial/military help, Finland had given only slightly more than Germany in relation to GNP by November 20 according to the Kiel Institute, the German research body now following up on international aid to Ukraine. Which placed us the 16th country barely ahead of Germany that was the 17th. But that was before the rather large military aid package decided upon just days ago in Finland. I don't know if Germany has done a similar investment since November 20.

    Also, we are a non-NATO country with 1,343 kilometers of mutual border with Russia, a country that has threatened us recently and is currently building up an anti-Finnish narrative not much unlike the Nazi stuff they built up against Ukraine. So we cannot really give everything we have.

    But it is commendable that you are taking care of so many refugees from a conflict you couldn't give two cents about to prevent while cozying up to the Russians against the advice and pleas of your formal allies.

    Given that our Minister for Foreign Affairs recently (a week ago?) stated that the US has invited Finland to participate in negotiations for an alliance outside the framework of NATO, who knows if Germany will one day find itself in a position in which they have to pay for their own defence instead of freeloading and cowering behind the backs of Americans while badmouthing them and colluding with Russia. History shows that alliances and fortunes change depending on actions countries take.
    Last edited by Septentrionalis; January 21, 2023 at 02:52 PM.

  8. #7188
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    What is it explaining to me? That Soviet derived models will not continue to be a mainstay of Ukrainian forces for some time? Or that Leopard 2s aren't the ideal long term western system? I don't get what you're saying?
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  9. #7189
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    A closed opinion poll conducted in November 2022 by the Federal Security Service commissioned by the Kremlin showed that about 55% of Russians are now in favor of peace negotiations with Ukraine, and only 25% are in favor of continuing hostilities. This is reported by Meduza*, which obtained the results of the survey.

    Most of the population in Russia does not support Putin and the war, however, he continues to wage it contrary to the opinion of the Russian people.

    https://rtvi.com/news/meduza-provede...ry-s-ukrainoj/
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

  10. #7190
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    You two (Edit: Vanoi & Morticia) speak in binary terms again, which makes both of you partly wrong and partly right.

    Ukraine's Soviet and derived equipment - including tanks will continue to be the major part of it's forces - and the US has stated that they are continuing to source these tanks and supplies because they are so easy to deploy. For this conflict, there will always be more Soviet era tanks in Ukraine's forces and this is an important consideration that can't be forgotten about. Ukraine has expertise in making them, let alone maintaining them.

    But Leopard 2s are a long term transition option that is more attractive than any other western tank because of how easy it would be to develop support structures given existing infrastructure in Poland and across Europe. But this is a massive undertaking, on a scale of magnitude greater than deploying artillery systems.

    We will likely see both in action.
    Yes high likely a long term transition project with Leopard II or any other western tank.

    The number of produced Leopard II is impressive (3500).

    But few are left and different versions (A 4, A 5, A 6, A 7):

    Denmark

    The Ministry of Defense, the command and the administrative authority responsible for purchasing do not reveal an exact number of Leopard tanks. However, according to military information, 14 tanks were sent to Estonia for the first time on an international mission in September.

    Germany

    The Bundeswehr has retired its older Leopard tanks or handed them over to other countries. This includes models of the type 2A4, but also the Leopard 1 generation. She has around 320 of the newer models, but the exact number is kept secret. The traffic light government under Chancellor Olaf Scholz (SPD) is still reluctant to deliver the main battle tank. The new Defense Minister Boris Pistorius (SPD) must also take care of this.

    Finland

    Finland is not yet a NATO member, but has signaled that it can supply some Leopard tanks to Ukraine. According to the Finnish Defense Command, the Finns have around 200 Leopard 2 tanks.

    Greece

    Greece, on the other hand, has a significantly larger number of Leopard tanks: there are 170 2HEL, 183 of the older Type 2A4 and 500 Type 1A5 from the previous Leopard generation. The high number of tanks is due to the constant conflict with Turkey.

    Netherlands

    The Netherlands has leased 18 Leopard 2A6 tanks from Germany. These are part of the German-Dutch tank battalion and stationed in Bergen-Hohne in Lower Saxony.

    Norway

    According to the Ministry of Defence, Norway bought 52 used Leopard 2A4s from the Netherlands in 2001. Some of them are in use, others are used as spare parts stores or even scrapped. The ministry did not say exactly how many tanks are operational.

    Poland

    According to the Polish Ministry of Defense, Poland has 247 Leopard main battle tanks in the 2A4 and 2A5 versions and in the modernized PL version. And Poland wants to deliver the tank to Ukraine.

    Portugal

    The Portuguese Ministry of Defense has not provided any information on the leopard population. According to media reports, the Portuguese armed forces have 37 Leopard 2A6s in service.

    Sweden

    There is no information from Sweden on the number of Leopard tanks. However, it is considered certain that Sweden has more than 100 Leopard tanks.

    Slovakia

    Slovakia owns a Leopard tank. By the end of 2023, there should be a total of 15 as part of a ring exchange. Probably none of them will be delivered to the Ukraine.

    Spain

    Spain owns 347 Leopard tanks. Of these, 108 belong to the older 2A4 variant and 239 Leopards to the 2A6 type. However, some tanks are not operational - some should be delivered to Ukraine. After weeks of speculation about this delivery, Spain's Defense Minister Margarita Robles said in August: The tanks are in an absolutely desolate condition.

    Czech Republic

    Germany is making 14 Leopard 2A4 main battle tanks and Buffalo armored recovery vehicles available to the Czech Republic as part of a ring exchange. These are the replacements for Soviet-made tanks delivered to Ukraine. The Czech Republic currently owns only one of the 14 Leopard tanks. Prime Minister Petr Fiala recently emphasized that the sale of military technology had reached the limits of what was possible.

    Turkey

    The Turkish Ministry of Defense does not comment on the number of units and armament. According to figures from the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS), Turkey has 316 Leopard 2A4, 170 Leopard 1A4 and 227 Leopard 1A3.

    Hungary

    According to consistent media reports, Hungary rented twelve Leopard 2A4 tanks from the manufacturer Kraus-Maffei in 2020 for training purposes. In addition, 44 new Leopard 2A7s are to be added this year. A delivery to Ukraine is very unlikely due to the good relations between Prime Minister Viktor Orban and Russian President Vladimir Putin.


    https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/polit...sland-100.html

    Greece and Türkiye won't deliver one because of different reasons.

    The others will be of multiple versions, i guess they would be refurbished by Rheinmetal and KrausMaffei first and updated to one version.

    In my opinion you will then need to build new ones then and increase production of spare parts and ammunition too.

    That will cost money and industry won't do it without longterm money.

    This will be as you said no ad hoc action, a longterm operation.

    And Balts, Finns, Poles or whatever can rant about coward Germans and traitor Scholz.

    But he is the Chancellor of Germany and obliged by his oath to prevent damage from the german population and half of this population has reservations against delivering Leopards (the polls differ).

    So he certainly be cautious in his decisions.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; January 21, 2023 at 04:26 PM.
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  11. #7191

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    And Balts, Finns, Poles or whatever can rant about coward Germans and traitor Scholz.
    Yes, but only for the fact that Scholz is a traitor. There are no other reasons for that judgement.
    Last edited by chriscase; January 22, 2023 at 10:37 AM. Reason: Please avoid comments that could be interpreted as insults

  12. #7192
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    Yes, but only for the fact that Scholz is a traitor. There are no other reasons for that judgement.
    Scholz' supporters will be praising his bravery at this point I expect.
    Last edited by chriscase; January 22, 2023 at 10:38 AM.
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  13. #7193
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    This was about Germany, nominally a NATO country, undermining western interests because of their interests with Russia. This was not about Finland, that is not colluding with the enemy at least now. But I'll try to answer your questions.

    There are only 700,000 + Ukrainian refugees in Finland if we adjust for the population of the receiving society, so that is somewhat fewer than in Germany that hosts 1,000,000+.

    As for financial/military help, Finland had given only slightly more than Germany in relation to GNP by November 20 according to the Kiel Institute, the German research body now following up on international aid to Ukraine. Which placed us the 16th country barely ahead of Germany that was the 17th. But that was before the rather large military aid package decided upon just days ago in Finland. I don't know if Germany has done a similar investment since November 20.

    Also, we are a non-NATO country with 1,343 kilometers of mutual border with Russia, a country that has threatened us recently and is currently building up an anti-Finnish narrative not much unlike the Nazi stuff they built up against Ukraine. So we cannot really give everything we have.

    But it is commendable that you are taking care of so many refugees from a conflict you couldn't give two cents about to prevent while cozying up to the Russians against the advice and pleas of your formal allies.

    Given that our Minister for Foreign Affairs recently (a week ago?) stated that the US has invited Finland to participate in negotiations for an alliance outside the framework of NATO, who knows if Germany will one day find itself in a position in which they have to pay for their own defence instead of freeloading and cowering behind the backs of Americans while badmouthing them and colluding with Russia. History shows that alliances and fortunes change depending on actions countries take.


    Its totally understandable, that you are babbling the whole time about payment in relation to GdP as finnish 590 Million € (Star Dreamer) is quite ridiculous against german 5 billions € (2022/2023).

    And Finland is only harbouring:



    https://data.unhcr.org/en/situations/ukraine

    Finnland: 47000

    Germany: 1 Million

    And again your lame excuse "in relation to population".

    Congratulation, Finland is among the "in Relation to" - world champions, but what counts in the end is the sum total.

    Germany is with Ramstein, the unsinkable aircraft carrier, the center for supply for US operations world wide.

    Its Bundeswehr was the shield against an soviet invasion in Europe with 500.000 soldiers.

    So much to blabla hide behind US.

    And finally to german business with Russia:

    Uniper was one of the financiers of the Nord Stream 2 project, which the German government suspended after the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.[9]

    In September 2017, Finnish power company Fortum announced it would buy E.ON's remaining 47% stake in Uniper and make a bid for the other 53% held by other shareholders, valuing Uniper at €8 billion. A takeover bid was submitted on 7 November 2017. E.ON accepted the offer on 8 January 2018.[16] Fortum acquired in total a 47.35% stake. The deal was completed on 26 June 2018, after approval by various authorities.[17] As of August 18, 2020, Fortum held a 75.01% stake in Uniper.[18]

    On 4 July 2019, Uniper and EPH ("Energetickı a průmyslovı holding a.s.") signed the agreements for the sale of Uniper's activities in France. The scope of transaction includes Uniper's French sales business, two gas-fired power plants in Saint-Avold (Lorraine), two coal-fired power plants in Saint-Avold and Gardanne (Provence), the biomass power plant "Provence 4 Biomasse" in Gardanne and wind and solar power plants.[19]

    Uniper announced on 28 April 2022 that it will pay for Russian gas in roubles giving in to Russian demands and helping to undercut EU sanctions on Russia.[20]

    In July 2022, the German government and Fortum agreed to bailout Uniper a €15 billion rescue deal after being severely affected by reduced supplies and high prices following the energy standoff with Russia.[21] Germany agreed to pay €267 million for a stake in the ownership of Uniper, while also offering the firm up to €7.7 billion in financing.[22] Under the bailout, a record in German corporate history, the government will take a 30% stake in Uniper, reducing the ownership of Fortum to 56%.[23]

    On 20 September 2022, Bloomberg News reported that the German government intended to nationalize the company, purchasing the remainder of Fortum's stake and becoming Uniper's sole owner.[24] News of the transaction caused Uniper shares to decline and a sharp spike in Fortum's share price, resulting in a halt in trading of the latter.[24] Finland's Minister of Ownership Steering Tytti Tuppurainen stated that Finland would not accept the nationalisation of Uniper without a level of compensation being paid.[25] The German government's intention to nationalize the company was formalized the next day.[26] Germany will spend $8 billion to acquire a 99% stake in the company.[27] Uniper published a €40b loss for the first 3 quarters of 2022.[2]

    As Fortum is state owned Finland had had also obviously no problems in gas trade with Russia. And earning money with North Stream I and II.

    So much about Finland caring about its neighbours.

    Hypocrisy disclosed.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; January 21, 2023 at 05:25 PM.
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  14. #7194

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia
    And again your lame excuse "in relation to population".

    Congratulation, Finland is among the "in Relation to" - world champions, but what counts in the end is the sum total.
    “A lame excuse" that a nation 1/15 of the size of yours (that spends more than you per capita) should spend more than you in absolute terms?
    Last edited by chriscase; January 22, 2023 at 10:40 AM. Reason: Please keep discussion impersonal

  15. #7195
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I accept your intellectual defeat.

    I guess the finnish state has made good profits from the qas trade with Russia too.
    Last edited by chriscase; January 22, 2023 at 10:41 AM. Reason: Continuity
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    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
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  16. #7196
    chriscase's Avatar Chairman Miao
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Please remember to keep discussion impersonal.

    Also keep in mind that while criticism of nations and governments is allowed in fairly harsh terms, similar terms as applied to individuals of a given national origin are not allowed because they may be interpreted as insulting. Be clear when making such criticisms that you are referring to national policies or public figures rather than all people of a given national origin.
    Last edited by chriscase; January 22, 2023 at 10:46 AM.

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  17. #7197
    Gyrosmeister's Avatar Monsieur Grec
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    Yes high likely a long term transition project with Leopard II or any other western tank.

    The number of produced Leopard II is impressive (3500).

    But few are left and different versions (A 4, A 5, A 6, A 7):

    Denmark

    The Ministry of Defense, the command and the administrative authority responsible for purchasing do not reveal an exact number of Leopard tanks. However, according to military information, 14 tanks were sent to Estonia for the first time on an international mission in September.

    Germany

    The Bundeswehr has retired its older Leopard tanks or handed them over to other countries. This includes models of the type 2A4, but also the Leopard 1 generation. She has around 320 of the newer models, but the exact number is kept secret. The traffic light government under Chancellor Olaf Scholz (SPD) is still reluctant to deliver the main battle tank. The new Defense Minister Boris Pistorius (SPD) must also take care of this.

    Finland

    Finland is not yet a NATO member, but has signaled that it can supply some Leopard tanks to Ukraine. According to the Finnish Defense Command, the Finns have around 200 Leopard 2 tanks.

    Greece

    Greece, on the other hand, has a significantly larger number of Leopard tanks: there are 170 2HEL, 183 of the older Type 2A4 and 500 Type 1A5 from the previous Leopard generation. The high number of tanks is due to the constant conflict with Turkey.

    Netherlands

    The Netherlands has leased 18 Leopard 2A6 tanks from Germany. These are part of the German-Dutch tank battalion and stationed in Bergen-Hohne in Lower Saxony.

    Norway

    According to the Ministry of Defence, Norway bought 52 used Leopard 2A4s from the Netherlands in 2001. Some of them are in use, others are used as spare parts stores or even scrapped. The ministry did not say exactly how many tanks are operational.

    Poland

    According to the Polish Ministry of Defense, Poland has 247 Leopard main battle tanks in the 2A4 and 2A5 versions and in the modernized PL version. And Poland wants to deliver the tank to Ukraine.

    Portugal

    The Portuguese Ministry of Defense has not provided any information on the leopard population. According to media reports, the Portuguese armed forces have 37 Leopard 2A6s in service.

    Sweden

    There is no information from Sweden on the number of Leopard tanks. However, it is considered certain that Sweden has more than 100 Leopard tanks.

    Slovakia

    Slovakia owns a Leopard tank. By the end of 2023, there should be a total of 15 as part of a ring exchange. Probably none of them will be delivered to the Ukraine.

    Spain

    Spain owns 347 Leopard tanks. Of these, 108 belong to the older 2A4 variant and 239 Leopards to the 2A6 type. However, some tanks are not operational - some should be delivered to Ukraine. After weeks of speculation about this delivery, Spain's Defense Minister Margarita Robles said in August: The tanks are in an absolutely desolate condition.

    Czech Republic

    Germany is making 14 Leopard 2A4 main battle tanks and Buffalo armored recovery vehicles available to the Czech Republic as part of a ring exchange. These are the replacements for Soviet-made tanks delivered to Ukraine. The Czech Republic currently owns only one of the 14 Leopard tanks. Prime Minister Petr Fiala recently emphasized that the sale of military technology had reached the limits of what was possible.

    Turkey

    The Turkish Ministry of Defense does not comment on the number of units and armament. According to figures from the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS), Turkey has 316 Leopard 2A4, 170 Leopard 1A4 and 227 Leopard 1A3.

    Hungary

    According to consistent media reports, Hungary rented twelve Leopard 2A4 tanks from the manufacturer Kraus-Maffei in 2020 for training purposes. In addition, 44 new Leopard 2A7s are to be added this year. A delivery to Ukraine is very unlikely due to the good relations between Prime Minister Viktor Orban and Russian President Vladimir Putin.


    https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/polit...sland-100.html

    Greece and Türkiye won't deliver one because of different reasons.

    The others will be of multiple versions, i guess they would be refurbished by Rheinmetal and KrausMaffei first and updated to one version.

    In my opinion you will then need to build new ones then and increase production of spare parts and ammunition too.

    That will cost money and industry won't do it without longterm money.

    This will be as you said no ad hoc action, a longterm operation.

    And Balts, Finns, Poles or whatever can rant about coward Germans and traitor Scholz.

    But he is the Chancellor of Germany and obliged by his oath to prevent damage from the german population and half of this population has reservations against delivering Leopards (the polls differ).

    So he certainly be cautious in his decisions.
    I have a good suggestion. Pressure Turkey to send the Leopard 2A4s they transferred to occupied Cyprus, violating the ELUA of the sale of the tanks, to Ukraine instead. Everyone who isn't a wannabe sultan or literally anyone who calls upon "International Law" for literally everything wins from this.

    And speaking of Greece, not even a single bullet should leave Greece when we have a neighbouring country (and an "invaluable" NATO "ally") threaten us openly with war, if it is not immediately replaced, without any delays.


  18. #7198
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    I accept your intellectual defeat.

    I guess the finnish state has made good profits from the qas trade with Russia too.
    Your argument is like saying that a poor person who gave all of his belongings to charity (5000$ let's say) is less charitable than a rich person who gave 0.01% of their wealth to charity (20,000$ let's say).
    Like yes, it's more in absolute terms, but compared to their capabilities it's not even close.

  19. #7199

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    I accept your intellectual defeat.
    What you just said is one of the most unintellectual things I have read on this forum ever, so you are in no position to declare any victories.

  20. #7200

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I guess the ball in the game here was that many eyeballs were raised at the decision to make Germany extra-dependant on Gas to the point of losing energy independence to Russia.
    This, regardless of intent, naturally raises more questions than answers.
    Thus why the refusal of this or that in Germany aid to Ukraine is met with extra scrutiny, there was also a former politically favoured german defense advisor who kept saying on how Ukraine had no chance at all and should just refuse.

    And could've admitted a slip up in alaysis, but instead kept/keeps doubling down on his initial claims. Now he may have his legit reasons for saying that, but in such settings it obviously raises eyebrows, normal reaction from the people.
    Last edited by fkizz; January 22, 2023 at 11:56 AM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

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