View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    103 69.59%
  • I support Russia fully.

    15 10.14%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.70%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.43%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.73%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.41%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #7001
    Stario's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2
    Since 2016...
    Outbreak of open conflict commenced 2014. The OSCE observer mission provides maps in daily reports documenting the location of ceasefire violations and explosions along the contact line between the Ukrainian military and the Donbas republics.
    These maps clearly show that Ukraine began artillery strikes against the Donbas republics on February 16th, 2022.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2
    Let's compare that to how Russia dealt with separatists: When the Chechen republic of Ichkeria declared independence Russia fought two wars. The first lasted 1 year and 8 months, and resulted in up to 100,000 dead civilians according to the UN, and up to 40,000 according to Russia.
    Russia lost, but came back for round 2. This lasted for 8 months, and led to another somehwere between 30,000 and 80,000 dead civilians.
    If you think that 15,000 dead on both sides combined from an insurrection is cause for invasion you must think that Russia should be wiped off of the face of the earth, right?
    Whataboutism much.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2
    Both sides violated the Minsk agreement.
    Fair.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2
    That was 2014 Azov, not the Azov that exists today.
    Azov is a neo nazi organisation. But cool story... 😎


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2
    Maybe now due to the invasion as there's an ever growing anti-Russian sentiment
    Since Zelensky took power.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2
    Tell that to Putin, because that's literally the goal of this invasion, if you've not been paying attention (it's okay, we know you haven't).
    It's Ukraine that has been shelling the Donbas republics since 2014...
    But in anycase things will be sorted out once Ukraine is defeated and defeated absolutely it will be...

  2. #7002
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Any estimates about how much longer this war will go on for?
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  3. #7003
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    Outbreak of open conflict commenced 2014. The OSCE observer mission provides maps in daily reports documenting the location of ceasefire violations and explosions along the contact line between the Ukrainian military and the Donbas republics.
    Indeed, and pratically froze in 2015. As I've stated, in the last 6 years of the conflict (not counting post feb 24th) 365 people died.
    These maps clearly show that Ukraine began artillery strikes against the Donbas republics on February 16th, 2022.
    (In response to Russian artillery strikes)

    Whataboutism much.
    Not really when it's part of the justification you're attempting to provide.


    Azov is a neo nazi organisation. But cool story... 😎
    I think the latest estimate was 20% of it being far-right? Regardless, Azov was 2,500 people. That's not even close to being a justification, there are more than 2500 nazis in Wagner alone.

    Since Zelensky took power.
    The guy barely if at all spoke Ukranian before he was elected, what are you on about?

    It's Ukraine that has been shelling the Donbas republics since 2014...
    But in anycase things will be sorted out once Ukraine is defeated and defeated absolutely it will be...
    Lmao, keep coping.

  4. #7004
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Any estimates about how much longer this war will go on for?
    Three days, apparently.

    More realistically, as long as the US wants. Russia seems to lack the political will to disengage or the military strength to win.

    Given how hollow Putins nuclear rhetoric has proved, the US could probably escalate assistance to Ukraine to the point of eliminating all Russian forces in Ukraine.

    Russia's future is evaporating. I think any pretence of an independent Russia is gone, they are in China's hands now. So perhaps China also has the power to end this, by folding Putin.

    The US looks to have jagged a new satellite, ditto China.

    Putin has lost on behalf of his people, very sad for Russia. I guess his triumphs sowing discord in 2016 and making Trump grovel in Reykjavik went to his head.

  5. #7005

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    Outbreak of open conflict commenced 2014. The OSCE observer mission provides maps in daily reports documenting the location of ceasefire violations and explosions along the contact line between the Ukrainian military and the Donbas republics.
    These maps clearly show that Ukraine began artillery strikes against the Donbas republics on February 16th, 2022.
    No. These maps only shows that artillery strikes from both sides intensified, nothing more. It is you who blame Ukraine, not OSCE.
    Azov is a neo nazi organisation.
    Azov in 2014 and Azov after 2015 are different things. It is not even organisation anymore, it's regular army regiment under standard chain of command.
    Since Zelensky took power.
    Blatant lies. Zelensky have been elected as "peacetime" president, because peoples got tired of military rethorics of Poroshenko.
    And he did concentrated on civil problems, and was critisized a lot for putting military needs on low priority.
    I am amazed how all apologists of Russia just simply disregard how starting war does radically change attitude towards invaders. They always trying to find some other reasons for that, ignoring elephant in the room.
    But in anycase things will be sorted out once Ukraine is defeated and defeated absolutely it will be...
    It might not win completely, but it certanly won't be defeated completely either. Putin lost that slim chance in 2014.
    Last edited by Loyt; January 08, 2023 at 07:31 AM.

  6. #7006
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I think that rashists who hope that the US will get fatigued and abandon Ukraine any day now forget just how long the US can remain in such conflict, hell it sat in Afghanistan for 20 years.

  7. #7007

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    4. Russia wanted ethnically Russian Ukranian citizens to be treated as equals w Ukranian citizens. Again Zelensky refused and made it difficult for them to speak their own language (Russian), build their own churches etc. Zelensky even said to the Russians in Ukraine "Ukranian'ize" (if that's even a world but I think you get the gist) or leave.
    The problem is we are human beings and one can't simply force human beings to give up their own culture, their own language or stop them from practising their own religion.
    Besides being obviously false, Russia is in no position to complain about minorities' linguistic rights. Russia is and has been for a very long time one of the worst offenders. Linguistic minorities have very few rights in Russia and they are quickly disappearing, which is obviously the plan as well. Total russification.

  8. #7008
    Peresvet's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    In a nutshell:
    1. We have to remember it was the Ukranians shelling Donetsk and Luhansk independent republics since 2014.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e62oXu6SyvA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzkUbE5vSTI

    You are a fake spreader. This video clearly shows that the so-called Donetsk militia, but in fact the terrorists, are shooting in different directions, first at the positions of the Ukrainian army, and then at the residential areas of Donetsk. It is they who fire at civilians, and not the Ukrainian army, in order to blame the Ukrainians and cause hatred towards them. In addition, the Russian army has its positions in residential areas and fires from there, which often causes retaliatory fire from the Ukrainians. This is a war, but it was started by Russia and the Russian army is firing at civilians.
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

  9. #7009
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Three days, apparently.
    If only

    Got to say that I am happy the thread allows for multiple viewpoints, and not just the simple "Russia is teh evil". Unlike in some more fascist-oriented analogous thread elsewhere ^^
    Last edited by Kyriakos; January 08, 2023 at 09:04 AM.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  10. #7010

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Any estimates about how much longer this war will go on for?
    Well, despite Putin's power in internal affairs gradually reducing, he still has enough influence to keep the SMO running in hopes of some saviour unexpected development. He's losing a lot of political capital fast, but he had a lot of credibility inside and outside Russia, and cognitive dissonance is a human thing.
    Erosion takes time, but at same time there's a lot of internal pressure. Hard to tell if it will be a slow process or a sudden black swan catalyst of some political reform might appear. Being a tad cynical, likely will be a slow process.

    China isn't interested in a major geopolitical scandal to disrupt its world wide silk road trade experiment, only win right now is cheap gas. Other than that not likely to send Chinese troops to Ukraine, mainly with instability at home.

    US likely will commit to Lend Lease. Culture of Lend Lease, except this time deal wasn't made with Russia.

    So this seems to be a deadlock until via power vacuum (among other options) China becomes a more dominant power in Euroasia. Time is on favor of this.
    Then we would have a different type of dynamic that might not be this repetitive and offer different possible results.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Not impossible, but not counting too much on it, is some form of political reform on Russia which brings a different political dynamic, where Russia's internal problems are acknowledged as higher priority issue than annoying neighbours.
    Last edited by fkizz; January 08, 2023 at 02:12 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  11. #7011
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Although Kiev's “vibrant democracy” supporters in the European Garden and the US have so far maintained a complicit silence, on January 1, a post commemorating Bandera's 114th birthday was tweeted by Ukraine's parliament website. The tweet contained "a quote from Stepan Bandera and a photo of the head of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, General Zaluzhny, with a large portrait of the Nazi collaborator in the background. After receiving a significant amount of criticism, it was subsequently deleted.The tweet sparked spontaneous outrage from Poland, a staunch supporter of Kiev and Zelensky. On January 2, Polish Prime Minister Morawiecki denounced the glorification of Stepan Bandera by the Ukrainian parliament. Polónia critica homenagem da Ucrânia a figura polémica da II ...
    Polish MFA unhappy about Ukrainian nationalist leader's ...
    On the same day, the newspaper Haaretz also criticized the Ukrainian authorities for celebrating and citing an anti-Semitic Nazi collaborator. Haaretz
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  12. #7012

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Although Kiev's “vibrant democracy” supporters in the European Garden and the US have so far maintained a complicit silence, on January 1, a post commemorating Bandera's 114th birthday was tweeted by Ukraine's parliament website. The tweet contained "a quote from Stepan Bandera and a photo of the head of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, General Zaluzhny, with a large portrait of the Nazi collaborator in the background. After receiving a significant amount of criticism, it was subsequently deleted.The tweet sparked spontaneous outrage from Poland, a staunch supporter of Kiev and Zelensky. On January 2, Polish Prime Minister Morawiecki denounced the glorification of Stepan Bandera by the Ukrainian parliament. Polónia critica homenagem da Ucrânia a figura polémica da II ...
    Polish MFA unhappy about Ukrainian nationalist leader's ...
    On the same day, the newspaper Haaretz also criticized the Ukrainian authorities for celebrating and citing an anti-Semitic Nazi collaborator. Haaretz
    Did the Polish people across Poland hit the streets chanting against Ukraine? Or did some politicians tweeted about it? Choose wisely.
    The Armenian Issue

  13. #7013
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    As it has been well explained, what is remarkable is the fact that Poland, despite being an indefectible ally, criticizes the Ukraine's Nazi hero. There are still those who consider Bandera a Ukrainian national hero.
    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    Linguistic minorities have very few rights in Russia and they are quickly disappearing,
    Let's see, in detail, Linguistic Rights and Education in the Republics of the ... - Brill
    It also must be said that Islam is one of Russia’s four traditional religions, alongside Judaism and Buddhism.

    Even in the US, what is the future of language diversity?Immigration and Language Diversity in the United States - NCBI

    Whether Spanish and other immigrant languages persist in being spoken within the United States depends mainly on future trends in immigration.
    Speaking a foreign tongue at home does not necessarily imply a lack of fluency in English, of course; but if the past is any guide to the future, the prospects for stable bilingualism in the United States are slim given the nation's well established reputation as a graveyard for immigrant languages
    This is not a criticism.
    On a side note,
    U.S. Strategy for Ukraine Must Include Minority Rights
    László Brenzovics is president of the Cultural Alliance of Hungarians in Subcarpathia, which represents the 150,000-strong ethnic Hungarian minority in Ukraine

    As of July 1, 2021, a new law limits the definition of ‘indigenous’ minorities. The law not only contravenes common sense, but is also highly discriminatory. While certain indigenous peoples are recognized, the Bulgarians, Hungarians, Romanians and Poles -- and of course, the Russians –- are not recognized, and nor are their language rights.
    • The current draft Law on National Communities, too, is built upon vague concepts that limit rather than protect existing rights. Instead of ‘minorities,’ it talks about “communities” – an apparent bid to evade Ukraine’s existing commitments to internationally recognized minority rights instruments.
    The Venice Commission, an advisory body of the Council of Europe in which the U.S. is represented, established that Ukraine has failed to ensure the linguistic rights of minorities, and recommended that Ukraine implement measures to ensure a sufficient level of teaching in minority languages. The Council of Europe's Parliamentary Assembly and the High Representative of the EU for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy called on Ukraine to ensure the rights and non-discrimination of national minorities. So far, Ukraine has completely ignored the Council of Europe recommendations.
    Hate speech and hate crimes against ethnic minority groups continue to be tolerated. Over the past three years, ultra-nationalist groups set fire to the office of the Cultural Alliance of Hungarians in Subcarpathia; posted ‘stop the separatists’ billboards with photos of Hungarian community leaders, including me; and run a website that lists the addresses of ethnic Hungarian community leaders, branding them ‘enemies of Ukraine’ - all with impunity.
    Ukrainian authorities themselves also intimidate the Hungarian minority. Last year, based on false charges, armed security commandos raided several Hungarian minority institutions in Subcarpathia. President Zelensky has intentionally encouraged anti-Hungarian sentiment, publicly comparing the Hungarian ethnic community to the situation in the Donetsk Basin - knowing full well that the comparison is absurd.
    National minorities in Ukraine are not new arrivals; this region has been our home for more than a thousand years. As Hungarians in Subcarpathia, we do not want special or privileged treatment. We do not want to be labeled as enemies of the state; we have always been loyal to Ukraine. We only want to be recognized as the indigenous national minority we are; to preserve our language and cultural identity; and to work together with the majority population as equals to ensure a successful future for Ukraine.
    Last edited by Ludicus; January 08, 2023 at 04:49 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  14. #7014

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    The fact that Russia is engaging in a cultural and linguistic genocide of nations within its borders, nations that have no other place to exist and thrive in, is in no way equivalent with America not accommodating the needs of immigrant groups to preserve their languages in the US. The Spanish language is not going to die out because of US language policy.

    The accusations towards Ukraine do not make Russian policies okay either. That is just typical vatnik logic. Someone somewhere is not doing the right thing, so whatever we do is justified.

  15. #7015
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Who is Russia genociding inside Russia? I know rhere are small ethnoiunder stress from mining etc, wasnt aware of programmatic erasure.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  16. #7016
    Peresvet's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    the russian state, led by putin, is pursuing a policy of genocide of its own citizens, raising utility tariffs, prices, adopting repressive laws, conducting mobilization, weakly fighting the coronavirus, and reducing funding for science, education and medicine. Mortality is growing in Russia every year, men are dying out especially strongly, like the entire population as a whole.
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

  17. #7017

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Peresvet View Post
    the russian state, led by putin, is pursuing a policy of genocide of its own citizens, raising utility tariffs, prices, adopting repressive laws, conducting mobilization, weakly fighting the coronavirus, and reducing funding for science, education and medicine. Mortality is growing in Russia every year, men are dying out especially strongly, like the entire population as a whole.
    That is not genocide tho, just bad governance.

  18. #7018
    Peresvet's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Loyt View Post
    That is not genocide tho, just bad governance.

    I think that this is a conscious policy and sometimes it seems that putin is an agent of some foreign intelligence service, so he hates his own people
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

  19. #7019

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Peresvet View Post
    I think that this is a conscious policy and sometimes it seems that putin is an agent of some foreign intelligence service, so he hates his own people
    Russia's birth rate plummeted back in the 90s and hasn't recovered (probably a big part of why it has a very old population). This is not uncommon in developed economies (see Japan) but any large-scale war effort by nature is going to disproportionately affect the young adult male demographic (as opposed to the pandemic, which most badly affected the elderly pretty much everywhere). Obviously, this pressures an already strained demographic situation even further (plus the economic downturn negatively affecting fertility rates).

    So Putin probably didn't start the problem, but he certainly seems to be making it worse.

  20. #7020
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Who is Russia genociding inside Russia? I know rhere are small ethnoiunder stress from mining etc, wasnt aware of programmatic erasure.
    There were quite a few Finno-Ugric languages in Russia, these are now either dead or dying(confined to a few rural villages, used mostly by elderly people). And that is just the Finno-Ugric languages.
    Tsarist, Soviet and Putinist Russofication has done quite a number on these minorities.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
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