View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    103 69.13%
  • I support Russia fully.

    16 10.74%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.68%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.38%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.70%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.37%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #6841
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I dont really have the time now, but this, just wow...

    Rep for that. I saw it and meant to post but real life is busy. But notice it don't include Portugal so no worries - Just the annoying states in the EU complaining about Russia (who should never have been let into the EU or NATO). Also seeing as Poland, Germany, Lithuania and probably Sweden can all make more solid stories some mythic and actual historic back story about what is Kaliningrad is theirs by right... seems like they should at least be able to demand it be neutral and disarmed. But I dunno Russia has no agency and NATO made Putin arm it to the teeth.
    Last edited by conon394; December 27, 2022 at 03:29 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  2. #6842
    Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/pavel-...in-window-fall

    Another Russian elite died falling through a window. Starting to think these guys should really avoid windows or tall buildings in general.
    I mean we laugh (grimly) about Epstein, but this is like a monthly occurrence now. Putin is a just a bloody handed brigand.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  3. #6843
    Peresvet's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    "Traitors who hate their country so much that they call for its defeat and death should be considered as hostis publicus, enemies of society. Regardless of the legal qualification of their deeds. As enemies of the state, enemy of the state, using their own beloved American equivalent" , he wrote on Wednesday in his Telegram channel. Behind them, Medvedev pointed out, this definition should be firmly fixed, even if no one initiated any criminal or administrative cases against these citizens.Typical Nazi rhetoric of representer of putinist state - medvedev.https://t.me/medvedev_telegram/239
    Last edited by Peresvet; December 28, 2022 at 03:37 PM.
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

  4. #6844
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    It is easier to believe in the existence of Santa Claus than in the existence of Russians- no matter how democratic they are- who want to see their homeland hit by North American missiles.

    ---
    The Ukraine nazi/hypernationalist racist matrix in detail,
    2010 study by published by the U.S. National Archives. Available online. Authors: Norman Goda and Rhicard Breitman.
    Norman Goda is the Norman and Irma Braman Professor of Holocaust Studies at the University of Florida,
    Richard Breitman serves as editor of the scholarly journal Holocaust and Genocide Studies.
    CHAPTER FIVE,
    Collaborators: Allied Intelligence and the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists. Read the full chapter, pages 73-90
    Background: page 73-78
    Allied Intelligence and Stephen Bandera pages 78-85
    The United States and Mykola Lebed pages 85-91

    ---
    More on the subject,During the year just ended, I heard very often the statement that in Ukraine "our principles are being upheld!" But what principles? the principles being upheld by the multi-millionaires installed on Capitol Hill or in the corrupt European Parliament?
    Why is Congress a millionaires club? - CBS News
    Report: MEPs earning millions from side jobs

    ...or the racist principles that are being defended by Zelensky and his supporters?
    Here, our only way is to withstand the onslaught of Mordor,” declared the Ukrainian Minister of Defence in early March. Ukraine defence minister
    Ukraine is the “frontier between orcs and elves”. Zelensky: Ukraine future partner for 27 EU countries rather than frontier between “orcs and elves”

    In fact, it’s a sad joke to hear that Ukraine is 'one of the leaders of the free world'

    The racist matrix of who claims (Zelensky) to be “a leader of the free world” is quite evident, and it is strongly condemned by a Lithuanian intellectual. Read the whole interview.
    'I will not call Russians rushists or orcs – that's dehumanising
    Poet, translator, and author, Venclova is one of the most respected intellectuals in Lithuania. He is one of the founders of the Lithuanian Helsinki Group. In 1975, Venclova wrote an open letter to the Central Committee of the Communist Party, in which he said he could no longer live under the communist ideology and asked to be allowed to leave the USSR…
    ---
    Published by Responsible Statecraft, this article is an excellent reminder of what happens when the US military industrial complex is very interested in selling weapons and promoting wars, but not very interested in defending its quasi-allies to the last consequences.
    When courting quasi-allies like Ukraine becomes a moral hazard.

    U.S. promises (not always kept) of protection end up sidelining more prudent, diplomatic paths and protracting war.
    …Quasi-allyship is a murky status, created by official rhetoric, such as overzealous Congressmen or speechifying presidents talking falsely — calling states “allies,” speaking of “enduring bonds,” and “ironclad” commitments. Heavy arms sales and talk of formal commitments exacerbate the trouble. Quasi-ally status generally applies to states — Iraq, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Bahrain, Ukraine, Georgia, and Taiwan, and probably Israel, which is arguably so close to an actual ally that it is one — but can also describe relations with sub-state entities like the Mujahideen fighting the Soviet-backed government in 1980s Afghanistan or the Kurds in Syria today.
    …the U.S. interest in defending quasi-allies is generally dubious, which is typically a reason why the U.S. has no treaty obligation to these states.
    So why, you might ask, would the next quasi-ally under duress be deluded into thinking the U.S. cavalry would arrive? For one, they might think that the mere threat of U.S. intervention in adversaries’ minds will be enough to protect them. Further, leaders under pressure, and buoyed by nationalistic politics, may tend toward dangerously wishful thinking.
    Ukraine is a tragic example. The United States has continually and deliberately encouraged Kyiv’s hopes that they will get U.S. protection, causing Ukraine to take a harder line in relations with Russia than it otherwise would have.
    In 1994, with the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances, the United States seemed to commit to protect Ukraine, though the text actually commits signatories only to not violate Ukraine’s sovereignty and complain at the United Nations if someone else does. In 2008, at the Bucharest Summit, the United States pushed NATO to say Ukraine and Georgia would eventually join, though neither got Membership Action plans, the standard first step toward membership.
    Instead, Ukraine got increased U.S. military support, especially after Russia seized Crimea in 2014 and a NATO “Enhanced Opportunities Partner” designation in 2020.
    …But it seems likely that Ukraine might have made more concessions to Russian demands, most importantly committing to neutrality and fully implementing the Minsk II accords.
    The partial U.S. embrace of quasi-allies has proven quite dangerous.
    It encourages confusion and excessive risk-taking in the United States, though U.S. geography and power let us opt out of danger at the last minute, as generally occurs.
    This leaves quasi-allies like Ukraine in the lurch, encouraged to hope for protection that never arrives and thus overly cavalier as dangers mount.
    Sometimes it is vital to be clear who you won’t help.
    Last edited by Ludicus; December 29, 2022 at 02:12 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  5. #6845

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    The Ukraine nazi/hypernationalist racist matrix in detail,
    2010 study by published by the U.S. National Archives. Available online. Authors: Norman Goda and Rhicard Breitman.
    Norman Goda is the Norman and Irma Braman Professor of Holocaust Studies at the University of Florida,
    Richard Breitman serves as editor of the scholarly journal Holocaust and Genocide Studies.
    CHAPTER FIVE,
    Collaborators: Allied Intelligence and the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists. Read the full chapter, pages 73-90
    Background: page 73-78
    Allied Intelligence and Stephen Bandera pages 78-85
    The United States and Mykola Lebed pages 85-91
    Speaking of deceptive argumentation, the study above is not about some modern ties of Ukraine with Nazism but talks about suspected collaborators with Nazi Germany mainly from 1940s and 1950s. Once again, such deceptive argumentation is more in line with Nazism than the alleged Nazi state of Ukraine.
    The Armenian Issue

  6. #6846
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Speaking of deceptive argumentation, the study above is not about some modern ties of Ukraine with Nazism .
    Bandera is a national Hero of Ukraine, the country of the elves, a country where all political parties have been suppressed.
    From the 2010 study,
    ...Banderists represented themselves as fighting a “heroic Ukrainian resistance against the Nazis and the Communists” which had been “misrepresented and maligned” by “Moscow propaganda.” Bandera, they never tired of saying,had been arrested by the Nazis and held in Sachsenhausen. Now he and his movement fought “not only for the Ukraine, but also for all of Europe.” As for Banderist activities before and during the war, U.S. intelligence officials seemed to understand little beyond Bandera’s implication in the Pierecki assassination. They understood nothing of the Banderist role in ethnic cleansing during the war
    Vencovla, interview above: "A major political figure of ours said the other day: Russia is a cancer of humanity, it must be cut out. But then one must ask: how do you cut it out and where do you put Russia? Should we exterminate one hundred and forty million Russians?"



    --
    Quote Originally Posted by Peresvet View Post
    50% of Russians dont support war
    Read. December 13, 2022

    Many Russians Support Ukraine Peace Talks but Not Letting Territory Go.

    • When Russians are reminded of the costs associated with the war, they also express a preference for negotiations. Russians prefer peace negotiations over continued fighting that would bring the deaths of more Russian soldiers (62% vs. 31%) or higher prices for Russian households (53% vs. 41%).
    • Despite some support for negotiations, the territorial concessions that Russia would likely be asked to make are unpopular. Solid majorities say it is unacceptable for Russia to return Crimea (78%) or the occupied Donbas region to Ukraine (66%).
    Peresvet, being a political opponent of the Russian regime does not mean one wants to see his own country hit by missiles that the "American cowards" (sic) refuse to offer Ukraine.

    And, if you are Russian, you should know that, according to the Ukrainian leaders all Russians are guilty for their government’s crimes. That includes you.
    Last edited by Ludicus; December 29, 2022 at 03:03 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  7. #6847

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Bandera is a national Hero of Ukraine, the country of the elves, a country where all political parties have been suppressed.
    From the 2010 study,
    Vencovla, interview above: "A major political figure of ours said the other day: Russia is a cancer of humanity, it must be cut out. But then one must ask: how do you cut it out and where do you put Russia? Should we exterminate one hundred and forty million Russians?"
    Is Bandera regarded as a national hero because of his alleged Nazism ties? Nope. So? If the real concern is Nazism why are you focusing on figures like Bandera who is regarded as a positive historical figure in Ukraine by the minority and not on living and actively fighting people like Dmitry Utkin?
    The Armenian Issue

  8. #6848

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Peresvet View Post
    Hi all. I am from Russia and I confront putinism and war , I visited protest action in february 2022 against war with antimilitary banner for support Ukraine and get criminal repression against me, criminal investigation. Now I go away from Russia, but I hope for destroing putinist regime and i hope return.
    Good to have you here. I respect your courage and good sense to oppose an authoritarian regime that does not value the lives and interests of your people.

  9. #6849
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Is Bandera regarded as a national hero because of his alleged Nazism ties?
    There is no other explanation.

    Stepan Bandera monument in Lviv
    This is the Ukrainian national hero.

    Excerpt, from the study published by the US national archives. Link above.

    A Banderist proclamation in April 1941 claimed that “Jews in the USSR constitute the most faithful support of the ruling Bolshevik regime and the vanguard of Muscovite imperialism in the Ukraine.” Stetsko, even while under house arrest in July 1941, said that “I…fully appreciate the undeniably harmful and hostile role of the Jews, who are helping Moscow to enslave Ukraine…. I therefore support the destruction of the Jews and the expedience of bringing German methods of exterminating Jewry to Ukraine….”

    In Lwów, a leaflet warned Jews that, “You welcomed Stalin with flowers [when the Soviets occupied East Galicia in 1939]. We will lay your heads at Hitler’s feet.” At a July 6, 1941, meeting in Lwów, Bandera loyalists determined that Jews “have to be treated harshly…. We must finish them off…. Regarding the Jews, we will adopt any methods that lead to their destruction.Indeed pogroms in East Galicia in the war’s first days killed perhaps 12,000 Jews. Back in Berlin, Stetsko reported it all to Bandera.

    Nazi authorities mobilized Ukrainians into auxiliary police units, some of which cleared ghettos. Few such auxiliary police belonged to Bandera’s group, which operated independently. But Banderist guerrillas in western Ukraine often killed Jews.

    Historian Yehuda Bauer writes that Banderists “killed all the Jews they could find,” surely “many thousands” in all. Moshe Maltz, a Jew living in hiding in Sokal, heard from a friendly Polish contact “about 40 Jews who were hiding out in the woods near his home … the Bandera gangs came and murdered them all.”

    When the Soviets reconquered East Galicia in November 1944, there were few Jews there left alive. But Maltz recorded that, “When the Bandera gangs seize a Jew, they consider it a prize catch. The ordinary Ukrainians feel the same way…. they all want to participate in the heroic act of killing a Jew. They literally slash Jews to pieces with their machetes….”

    When the war turned against the Germans in early 1943, leaders of Bandera’s group believed that the Soviets and Germans would exhaust each other, leaving an independent Ukraine as in 1918. Lebed proposed in April to “cleanse the entire revolutionary territory of the Polish population,” so that a resurgent Polish state would not claim the region as in 1918.

    Ukrainians serving as auxiliary policemen for the Germans now joined the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA). Maltz recorded that “Bandera men … are not discriminating about who they kill; they are gunning down the populations of entire villages.… Since there are hardly any Jews left to kill, the Bandera gangs have turned on the Poles. They are literally hacking Poles to pieces. Every day … you can see the bodies of Poles, with wires around their necks, floating down the river Bug.” On a single day, July 11, 1943, the UPA attacked some 80 localities killing perhaps 10,000 Poles.

    As the Red Army moved into western Ukraine (it liberated Lwów in July 1944) the UPA resisted the Soviet advance with full-scale guerrilla war. Maltz noted that, “Most of the Bandera gangs, men and women, from the villages … are still hiding out in the woods, armed to the teeth, and hold up Soviet soldiers. The Soviets may be the rulers of the towns, but the Bandera gangs reign supreme in the surrounding countryside, especially at night. The Russians…have their hands full…. Hardly a day passes without a Soviet official being killed….” The Banderists and UPA also resumed cooperation with the Germans. Though the SD was pleased with the intelligence received from the UPA on the Soviets, the Wehrmacht viewed Banderist terror against Polish civilians as counterproductive.

    …A feud erupted in 1947 between Bandera and Stetsko on the one hand, and Hrinioch and Lebed on the other. Bandera and Stetsko insisted on an independent Ukraine under a single party led by one man, Bandera.

    Hrynioch and Lebed declared that the people in the homeland, not Bandera, created the UHVR, and that they would never accept Bandera as dictator.
    At an August 1948 Congress of the OUN Foreign Section, Bandera expelled the Hrinioch-Lebed group from the party and ordered his own followers in their organization to resign.

    Bandera still controlled 80 percent of the party and claimed exclusive authority to direct the Ukrainian national movement at home and in the emigration. He also continued terror tactics against anti-Banderist Ukrainian leaders in Western Europe and maneuvered for control of Ukrainian émigré organizations. U.S. intelligence officials estimated that up to 80 percent of all Ukrainian DPs from Eastern Galicia were loyal to Bandera.
    Americans on this forum should be pleased to know that the CIA never supported Bandera, unlike British intelligence,


    …The CIA never considered entering into an alliance with Bandera to procure intelligence from Ukraine. “By nature,” read a CIA report, “[Bandera] is a political intransigent of great personal ambition, who [has] since April 1948, opposed all political organizations in the emigration which favor a representative form of government in the Ukraine as opposed to a mono-party, OUN/Bandera regime.” Worse, his intelligence operatives in Germany were dishonest and not secure.
    In April 1951 CIA officials tried to convince MI6 to pull support from Bandera. MI6 refused.
    CIA and State Department officials were “very strongly opposed” to London’s idea of returning Bandera to the Ukraine.
    ...
    Peresvet, I'm waiting for your answer. Previous post.
    And remember, it is perfectly legitimate to fight for the establishment of a democratic regime in Russia, as long as this does not lead to the fragmentation of your country, which would cease to exist. There are those who want it and are even waiting for it to happen. Russia's fragmentation into five or six countries would be very dangerous for Europe's stability. Managing Russia's dissolution - The Hill


    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    I respect your courage and good sense to oppose an authoritarian regime.
    He didn't just say that, which is perfectly fine. It's one thing to oppose a repressive regime, but it is quite another to want to see your country destroyed by American missiles, which he called cowards.
    Those who fought against Salazar's fascist regime here would never accept to see their own country destroyed by any other country, whatever the pretext.Ukraine is no exception.
    Last edited by Ludicus; December 29, 2022 at 05:20 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  10. #6850
    reavertm's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Ludicus, you have come long way in this thread.
    From arguing from perspective of high oil and gas prices on behalf of Europeans from your mediterranean Portugal (that EU should stop sanctions asap!!).
    Through arguing we should think of poor Ukrainians suffering (and that we should stop arming them so that they surrender and their suffering ends).
    Now to running interference for fascist Russian regime by repeating Putin/Medvedev/Lavrov talking points about Nazi regime operating in Ukraine today (I suppose to argue Russia was right to invade using denazification claims).
    Wow.
    Last edited by reavertm; December 29, 2022 at 05:41 PM.

  11. #6851
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    He's of course not going to address things like Lavrov declaring that a pre-condition to peace talk is Ukraine recognising Russia's illegal annexation of its territory.
    Look Ludi, if you truly only want peace, you're barking up the wrong tree. The only way to end this war is for Russia to get the fck out of Ukraine.

  12. #6852
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by reavertm View Post
    Ludicus, you have come long way in this thread.
    From arguing from perspective of high oil and gas prices on behalf of Europeans from your mediterranean Portugal .
    The little Portugal is irrelevant to the destruction of European economy.
    edit,Beyond the cameras, Macron-Biden meeting tougher than it looks...

    It is also in the decline of European economies — not military threats to Europe — that the real dangers to European liberal democracy are situated.
    Quote Originally Posted by reavertm View Post
    we should stop arming them so that they surrender to negotiate
    To negotiate the inevitable peace.Sooner, the better. The United States will not support Ukraine all the way. If you haven't read it, read it now.
    When courting quasi-allies like Ukraine becomes a moral hazard.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    The only way to end this war is for Russia to get the fck out of Ukraine.
    That is not what the cold reality of the facts points out, my friend. Russia's unconditional surrender is extremely unlikely to happen.
    Last edited by Ludicus; December 29, 2022 at 05:17 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  13. #6853
    reavertm's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    That is not what the cold reality of the facts points out, my friend. Russia's unconditional surrender is extremely unlikely to happen.
    Russia does not need to give up Moscow. It's sufficient for them to just get the out of Ukraine.

    You are well aware Lavrov laid out Russian "peace terms" a couple of times and they either involved Ukraine recognising annexed regions as Russian and/or Kiev regime change.
    You said Ukraine should "negotiate" and we repeatedly were asking you how Ukraine is supposed to negotiate with Russia that is not interested in negotiation at all, just in Ukraine surrendering.
    To which you obviously did not reply.
    You are not intellectually honest here and you know it.

  14. #6854
    Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Speaking of Russia having no agency, what do we think Xi will make Russia do next? Will Putin have to star in a Russian language stage version of Mulan, as the eponymous heroine? Maybe get him to invade Korea? Looking more and more like a puppet regime, maybe if the West preaspproves a Chinese resumption of East Siberia theyll shut Vladimir down.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  15. #6855

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea



    You can try to muddy the waters all you want Ludicus but regardless of how Crimeans view themselves (ethnically Russian, Ukrainian, Crimean Tatar, ect.) They by a large majority considered Ukraine their homeland.
    So if we assume all the polls are accurate then in 2008 32% of Crimeans considered themselves Ukrainian and in 2011 71% did so, but in 2013 that number was back to 24%. That seems like a rather large swing.
    Alternatively the issues of identity are flexible enough that slight changes in the question will produce significant variation in results. Either way, I don't think it's possible to say confidently that there was a consistent support for Ukrainian rule in Crimea (although I don't think you can necessarily say the opposite either).

    The big issue for the present is that Ukrainian national identity since 2014 has solidified around strongly anti-Russian sentiment. Absent large-scale ethnic cleansing (which Ukrainian rhetoric has lead me to believe is rather likely*), this would create problems when it comes to re-integrating a region where a majority of the population consider themselves Russian (a problem not present elsewhere except possibly in parts of the eastern Donbas).

    *Specifically, Ukrainian claims of up to a million illegal Russian immigrants since 2014, which seems highly implausible unless they are setting groundwork for mass expulsions under the pretext of "deporting illegal immigrants".

  16. #6856

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Bandera is a national Hero of Ukraine
    So? Washington had slaves, but that's not the reason he is praised by americans.
    You yourself bring a quote
    ...Banderists represented themselves as fighting a “heroic Ukrainian resistance against the Nazis and the Communists” which had been “misrepresented and maligned” by “Moscow propaganda.” Bandera, they never tired of saying,had been arrested by the Nazis and held in Sachsenhausen. Now he and his movement fought “not only for the Ukraine, but also for all of Europe.” As for Banderist activities before and during the war, U.S. intelligence officials seemed to understand little beyond Bandera’s implication in the Pierecki assassination. They understood nothing of the Banderist role in ethnic cleansing during the war
    It's not about "real" Bandera anymore. New myth is created around him, exxagerration of good parts and downplaying or omitting of atrocities.
    But if this new myth doesn't contain nazi principles or ideology, then why it's somehow making Ukraine a nazy-state?
    a country where all political parties have been suppressed.
    Only during war, and only pro-enemy parties. And they weren't supressed before, OPFL was second most popular party in parlament, being openly pro-Putin.
    Peresvet, being a political opponent of the Russian regime does not mean one wants to see his own country hit by missiles that the "American cowards" (sic) refuse to offer Ukraine.
    And what if there is no other way to stop them? You realise, that if your country becomes your enemy, if it starts acting as monster in your eyes - then your attitude towards it may change. You might want it to fail and die, because without such step there is no chance for appearance of country you want in its stead.
    And, if you are Russian, you should know that, according to the Ukrainian leaders all Russians are guilty for their government’s crimes. That includes you.
    Citizens are responsible for the actions of their government, nothing new here.

  17. #6857

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    There is no other explanation.
    Are you intentionally playing fool?
    Fighting for independence is the reason he is made hero. It's even explicitly stated in the exact decree wich made him a national hero.

  18. #6858

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    There is no other explanation.
    If one doesn't bend over for Russian propaganda, yes, there is. In fact, to claim as you do is to ignore reality. Your failure to back that up with any relevant substance and instead trying to focus on what people did and say half a century ago is telling. As I pointed out before, such deceptive argumentation is more in line with Nazism than any Nazism connection you're trying to build here with Ukraine. You know what? We can say that there is no other explanation but that you defend Nazism here. Why not? Per your standards that you're using here we can use the amount of quoting you do of Nazis and Nazism that you defend them.
    The Armenian Issue

  19. #6859

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    The big issue for the present is that Ukrainian national identity since 2014 has solidified around strongly anti-Russian sentiment. Absent large-scale ethnic cleansing (which Ukrainian rhetoric has lead me to believe is rather likely*), this would create problems when it comes to re-integrating a region where a majority of the population consider themselves Russian (a problem not present elsewhere except possibly in parts of the eastern Donbas).
    You are confusing two completely different things here. Russian ethnicity and russian state aka Russian Federation. Politics are anti-Russia, but there is not etnic discrimination. I don't see big issue here. Even in Crimea (if Ukraine will manage to return it) majority will simply keep living under new government like before. Some will leave due to political reasons, of course, especially those arrived after 2014.

  20. #6860
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    That is not what the cold reality of the facts points out, my friend. Russia's unconditional surrender is extremely unlikely to happen.
    Who said anything about unconditional surrender?
    No one is going to invade Russia if it just fcks off.

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