View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

Voters
148. You may not vote on this poll
  • I support Ukraine fully.

    103 69.59%
  • I support Russia fully.

    15 10.14%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.70%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.43%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.73%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.41%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #6801
    Peresvet's Avatar Civis
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    russian, but emigrant from war
    Posts
    148

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    this cowardice of Europe and the United States before the aggressor putin leads to the continuation of the war and aggression. I, as a Russian oppositionist, expect something different from Western countries, they can and must destroy this regime, which primarily oppresses Russians inside Russia and kills Ukrainians. Need to give Ukraine as many weapons and long-range missiles as possible.
    Last edited by Peresvet; December 23, 2022 at 08:26 AM.

  2. #6802
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,794

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Zelensky, on his visit toWashington, failed to get the offensive weapons he wanted, to hitRussia in depth. The promised Patriot battery will not arrive inUkraine for another few months
    A Patriot battery does not scoot. And it is pretty obvious even from space. Nor is it a simple to learn how to use toy and I suspect also not simple to integrate into a non NATO air defense system. At minimum it will need NASAMs and Avengers and CRAMs to create an integrated saturation proof setup.... And that really is not NATOs thing air power is. It was never going to handed over the day after the speech. Thus

    This offer is mostly symbolic

    … no. Its just not one that can be implemented overnight. It will almost certainly draw a Russian focus and thus the US will have to more make up a fully integrated system to put in place.


    Readingbetween the lines, one sees that Biden's perspective is not the sameas Zelensky's, who only accepts a crushing and total victory, whileBiden ambiguously refers to a "justpeace."
    Thisis the interpretation of some political commentators that I heard onthe night of December 21, on CNN Portugal prime time, and whounderstand that sooner or later a treaty for security in Europe mustbe reached that includes Russia, andUkrainewill have to accommodate some territorial losses to achieve peace.

    You are I think finding way too many lines between the lines .


    Tellme, for this is what it's all about: is it really necessary to fightto the last Ukrainian, and renounce a territorial compromise, whichis essential for peace?

    Umm why not ask the Ukrainians Ludicus they seem game for the fight not to become Russian Puppets. Why is necessary for Ukraine to give up its recognized territory just for Putin's ego?
    Last edited by conon394; December 23, 2022 at 08:58 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #6803
    saamohod's Avatar Tiro
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Unoccupied Ukraine
    Posts
    268

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    @Peresvet
    Don't crucify yourself too much, brother. We don't have issues with the Russians of your type. We're basically allies, although your home is on the other side of the frontline.
    "Orcs were mustering, and far to the east and the south the wild peoples were arming."
    J.R.R.Tolkien.

  4. #6804
    Peresvet's Avatar Civis
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    russian, but emigrant from war
    Posts
    148

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by saamohod View Post
    True.
    Russia has long been doing lots of age-restricted things to my people.
    Quote Originally Posted by saamohod View Post
    @Peresvet
    Don't crucify yourself too much, brother. We don't have issues with the Russians of your type. We're basically allies, although your home is on the other side of the frontline.
    Thanks. And I respect Ukraine and Ukrainian people. I make mod for Medieval 2 - With Fire and Sword with ukrainian modders and i respect their talents.
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

  5. #6805
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    13,065

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Peresvet View Post
    this cowardice of Europe and the United States before the aggressor putin leads to the continuation of the war and aggression. I, as a Russian oppositionist, expect something different from Western countries, they can and must destroy this regime, which primarily oppresses Russians inside Russia and kills Ukrainians. Need to give Ukraine as many weapons and long-range missiles as possible.
    Try to understand,
    Diplomacy Watch: Sketching the uncomfortable path to peace

    There is likely no way to achieve a moral end to this brutal war. But that leads to an important question…then what’s the best realistic option to end the conflict?
    Historian Vladislav Zubok sketched out an answer to that question in Foreign Affairs this week. For Zubok, a realistic peace will require both sides to make significant compromises, lest the conflict turn into a grinding war of attrition. “[T]he West’s current approach to simply let the war continue, though morally satisfying and politically popular, is risky,” Zubok argues, noting that it “subjects Ukrainians to the continual horrors of conflict.”
    “What is missing, then, is a coherent political plan to bring an end to the suffering, and to reassure Ukrainians that Russia will not begin a new war at the earliest opportunity, even if Putin remains in power,” he continues. “That will require the Russians to accept a defeat but also require the Ukrainians to accept that complete victory may be unobtainable.”
    Ukrainians, of course, are not the only ones who will have to swallow a bitter pill. As Zubok notes, the West has only used sticks with Russia in response to the conflict, but an end to the war will require carrots as well.

    “Publicizing a map toward negotiations now…does not constitute appeasement of Russia or condone Moscow’s aggression,” Zubok concludes.
    On the contrary, it would be a prudent, strategic, and realist political move by the West and Ukraine to address the large and growing number of Russians who would prefer peace but abhor a choice between war and defeat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peresvet View Post
    this cowardice of Europe and the United States...Need to give Ukraine as many weapons and long-range missiles as possible.
    No, because that would mean a world war.To call the huge commitment with which the U.S. (and even Europe) continues to help Ukraine a "cowardice" is complete nonsense.
    Are you Russian? read above the text on bold letters.
    --
    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    You are I think finding way too many lines between the lines .
    Biden was quite explicit.Biden wants to stretch the rope as far as possible, weaken Russia as much as possible, but not to the point of a world war

    ---



    Why are Russians and Ukrainians fighting around Bakhmut, a brutal battle that mixes WW1 warfare with the latest technology. Russian and Ukrainian forces are both taking heavy losses. "Bakhmut is the blackest point of the Ukrainian war.
    The journalist special envoy to Ukraine and collaborator of Atalayar went through the microphones of the program De Cara al Mundo to analyze the situation in Ukraine, in Kharkiv, where she is, and on the front of Bakhmut.
    This week, both the Institute for the Study of War, which is a prestigious American think tank, and other international thin tanks, have agreed that up to 400 Ukrainian soldiers a day are being killed and wounded in Bakhmut.
    And beyond the number, which is just a figure, I have been able to talk in recent days with different military sources, both official and combatants who have been there, and what they say makes one's hair stand on end. The city is for the moment under Ukrainian control, but the Russian troops have stationed their artillery close enough to fire there, but far enough away so as not to expose their troops too much. Meanwhile, the Ukrainian army, as it has to defend the terrain, has a lot of infantry, light units, paramilitary units that can do little against the bombs. This combat front has become today a real human meat grinder. That's how crude I can say it.
    Right now it is one of the most, if not the most, worrying point for Zelenski's armed forces. Our listeners are probably wondering what is the importance of Bakhmut to take such a commitment to defend the position with such a very high cost of living. Bakhmut is not an iconic city like Severodonetsk was, where one of the great battles of this war also took place. Bakhmut is not that kind of iconic city. However, it is a communications hub that is key to the supply lines of Ukrainian troops in Donetsk province, and it is also the buffer that contains the advance of Kremlin troops towards Sloviansk and Kramatorsk. If the Russian Army were to take these two cities, it would gain almost total control of the Donetsk province and, therefore, of the entire Donbas, something that Putin could already sell as a great victory. So you can imagine the effort that the Kremlin is putting right now in taking Bakhmut and what it is costing the Ukrainians to defend it.
    Understanding Russia's relentless assault on Bakhmut

    If breakthrough could be achieved, though, taking Bakhmut would be an undeniably significant achievement for Russia.
    “Bakhmut is the opening to Kostiantynivka, Pokrovsk, Siversk, Kramatorsk,” said Cherevatyi of Russia’s long-term aims in Donetsk Oblast. “These are the key goals of the push to take Donbas, and if they were ever to succeed, they will look at where to go further.”
    Edit,
    Regarding Crimea, the chorus of the song Krim by Undervud (2015) is significant: "Tell me whose Crimea is, and I tell you who you are”. To be Ukrainian from the country rather than belonging to the ethnic nation was a concept that only slightly took root after 2014. Let's go back in time, to realize how unrealistic was the concept of the Ukrainian patriotism in 2013 Crimea, before the Russian invasion,
    2013 poll, Public Opinion Survey Residents of the Autonomous Republic

    MOOD OF THE AUTONOMOUS REPUBLIC OF CRIMEA
    Regardless of your passport, what do you consider yourself?
    Russian: 40%
    Ukrainian: 24%
    Crimean-Tatar 15%
    Other: 5%
    DK/NA :1%

    If Ukraine was able to enter only one international economic union, which entity should it be with?

    Customs Union with Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan: 53%
    Last edited by Ludicus; December 23, 2022 at 10:20 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  6. #6806
    Peresvet's Avatar Civis
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    russian, but emigrant from war
    Posts
    148

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post

    No, because that would mean a world war.To call the huge commitment with which the U.S. (and even Europe) continues to help Ukraine a "cowardice" is complete nonsense.
    Are you Russian? read above the text on bold letters.
    what nonsense about the world war. putin is an ordinary thief and bandit, he will never bomb his children, who live abroad in western countries and their money, which is hidden in Western countries. he likes to live beautifully and richly, and he can only fight with those who are weaker than him, for example, Ukraine. But he couldn't even defeat her.
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

  7. #6807
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    17,268

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea

    The number of Crimean residents who consider Ukraine their motherland increased sharply from 32% to 71.3% from 2008 through 2011; according to a poll by Razumkov Center in March 2011,[23] although this is the lowest number in all Ukraine (93% on average across the country).[23] Surveys of regional identities in Ukraine have shown that around 30% of Crimean residents claim to have retained a self-identified "Soviet identity".[24]
    You can try to muddy the waters all you want Ludicus but regardless of how Crimeans view themselves (ethnically Russian, Ukrainian, Crimean Tatar, ect.) They by a large majority considered Ukraine their homeland.

  8. #6808
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Israel
    Posts
    6,398

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post



    Why are Russians and Ukrainians fighting around Bakhmut, a brutal battle that mixes WW1 warfare with the latest technology. Russian and Ukrainian forces are both taking heavy losses. "Bakhmut is the blackest point of the Ukrainian war.


    Understanding Russia's relentless assault on Bakhmut
    Because, believe it or not, Russia's entire military strategy amounts to: Rush B. B being Bakhmut, in this case.

    Edit,
    Regarding Crimea, the chorus of the song Krim by Undervud (2015) is significant: "Tell me whose Crimea is, and I tell you who you are”. To be Ukrainian from the country rather than belonging to the ethnic nation was a concept that only slightly took root after 2014. Let's go back in time, to realize how unrealistic was the concept of the Ukrainian patriotism in 2013 Crimea, before the Russian invasion,
    2013 poll, Public Opinion Survey Residents of the Autonomous Republic

    MOOD OF THE AUTONOMOUS REPUBLIC OF CRIMEA
    Regardless of your passport, what do you consider yourself?
    Russian: 40%
    Ukrainian: 24%
    Crimean-Tatar 15%
    Other: 5%
    DK/NA :1%
    Now, I'm no expert, but I'm reasonably sure that that doesn't add up to 100%.
    You're right though that Russians are a majority/plurality in Crimea. Do you know how that came to be?


  9. #6809
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,794

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Try to understand,
    DiplomacyWatch: Sketching the uncomfortable path to peace
    “On the contrary, it would be a prudent, strategic, and realist political move by the West and Ukraine to address the large and growing number of Russians who would prefer peace but abhor a choice between war and defeat.”


    These are observable where? How?


    And I just want to be clear you firmly believe we should have an independent south Vietnam now because the North should have recognized the an actual growing number of Americans (unlike the fantastical Russian population in question)were willing to buy and support Tricky Dick's peace with honor hasty sell out. I'm pretty sure if Giap had made that claim to his political leaders he be in a reeducation camp someplace back in the day.

    Biden was quite explicit. Biden wants to stretch the rope as far as possible, weaken Russia as much as possible, but not to the point of a world war
    Umm not sure what world war has to do with you reading stuff into Biden's comments that clearly did not exist.
    Last edited by conon394; December 23, 2022 at 01:01 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #6810
    reavertm's Avatar Biarchus
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    658

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    You're right though that Russians are a majority/plurality in Crimea. Do you know how that came to be?

    Super Hans.. I see you are a man of culture.

    It's always fun seeing Ludi lecture Ukrainians and Russians about this conflict.

  11. #6811
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    Posts
    9,816

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    The popular french satirical magazine, Charlie Hebdo, continues to do good



    Easy to infer the meaning of the message (Z says: "stop whining, we need them!")
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  12. #6812
    Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    8,355

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/...war-in-ukraine

    ...surely they mean "proxy special operation"? Not as big a gaffe as listing Taiwan as a hostile nation, but more blundering from the Putains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    The popular french satirical magazine, Charlie Hebdo, continues to do good



    Easy to infer the meaning of the message (Z says: "stop whining, we need them!")
    The meme game is strong in this war, but the Russians are losing that too. My favourites are the NAFO dogs and "Monkey Putin":

    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  13. #6813
    Peresvet's Avatar Civis
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    russian, but emigrant from war
    Posts
    148

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    NATO can end the war in a few days by striking the putinist army in Ukraine with high-precision missiles, completely destroying the putinist Black Sea fleet and completely defeating the putinist army, which should have been done a long time ago. How did the Allies in the Crimean War. But the cowardly NATO prefers to watch from afar how tens of thousands of Ukrainians, women, children and the elderly are dying and not to confront the aggressor. This was already the case with Hitler in 1938 , until he started a war with the West itself, he cowardly appeased it through Daladier and Chamberlain and the Munich agreements. So now with Putin. The cowardice of NATO and the West, which is afraid of putin, is the main reason for the war in Ukraine.




















    Last edited by Peresvet; December 24, 2022 at 02:06 AM.
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

  14. #6814

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Peresvet View Post
    NATO can end the war in a few days by striking the putinist army in Ukraine with high-precision missiles, completely destroying the putinist Black Sea fleet and completely defeating the putinist army, which should have been done a long time ago.
    Isn't it the same blatant overconfidence as in infamous "Kiev in 3 days"?
    Sure, they'll most probably win, but it won't be stroll in the park, far from it. And risks of nuclear war will rise tremendously. Not such an easy decision.
    But the cowardly NATO prefers to watch from afar how tens of thousands of Ukrainians, women, children and the elderly are dying and not to confront the aggressor. This was already the case with Hitler in 1938 , until he started a war with the West itself, he cowardly appeased it through Daladier and Chamberlain and the Munich agreements. So now with Putin. The cowardice of NATO and the West, which is afraid of putin, is the main reason for the war in Ukraine.
    They do help tho. Ukraine doesn't have any means to produce armaments right now, especially tecnologically advanced equipment. So it receives all kind of help, millitary and civillian.
    World is not a perfect place, but at least Western powers didn't leave Ukraine to Putin, so it is not repetance of Munich.

  15. #6815
    Peresvet's Avatar Civis
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    russian, but emigrant from war
    Posts
    148

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Loyt View Post
    Isn't it the same blatant overconfidence as in infamous "Kiev in 3 days"?
    Sure, they'll most probably win, but it won't be stroll in the park, far from it. And risks of nuclear war will rise tremendously. Not such an easy decision.
    putin is a petty thief and a coward, he will never start a nuclear war, and even if he tries, he will be immediately killed by his own entourage.
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

  16. #6816
    Peresvet's Avatar Civis
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    russian, but emigrant from war
    Posts
    148

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Loyt View Post

    They do help tho. Ukraine doesn't have any means to produce armaments right now, especially tecnologically advanced equipment. So it receives all kind of help, millitary and civillian.
    World is not a perfect place, but at least Western powers didn't leave Ukraine to Putin, so it is not repetance of Munich.
    Their assistance is weak and insufficient, they are unwilling to provide offensive weaponry, and they slow provide modern defensive systems. So it looks like a reluctance to end Ukraine's victory. since the Putin regime is beneficial to them
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

  17. #6817

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Peresvet View Post
    putin is a petty thief and a coward, he will never start a nuclear war, and even if he tries, he will be immediately killed by his own entourage.
    And you were saying you are from Russia... hm. How did you miss him building his "vertical of power" for 20 years? All his entourage are "yes-men", they selected by loyalty and lack of personal ambitions. Controllable and safe.
    Nobody knows if he'll use nukes or not. Probably not, but the risk is real.
    Their assistance is weak and insufficient, they are unwilling to provide offensive weaponry, and they slow provide modern defensive systems. So it looks like a reluctance to end Ukraine's victory. since the Putin regime is beneficial to them
    It could be better, but it also already better than was expected before war. And that help saves Ukraine from more losses right now.

  18. #6818
    Peresvet's Avatar Civis
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    russian, but emigrant from war
    Posts
    148

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Loyt View Post
    And you were saying you are from Russia... hm. How did you miss him building his "vertical of power" for 20 years? All his entourage are "yes-men", they selected by loyalty and lack of personal ambitions. Controllable and safe.
    Nobody knows if he'll use nukes or not. Probably not, but the risk is real.

    It could be better, but it also already better than was expected before war. And that help saves Ukraine from more losses right now.
    Even freaks from putin's entourage have a sense of self-preservation and a desire to survive. They have money in European countries and their children study there. They don't want to lose their lives and wealth because of the madness of bastard putin.
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

  19. #6819

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Peresvet View Post
    Even freaks from putin's entourage have a sense of self-preservation and a desire to survive. They have money in European countries and their children study there. They don't want to lose their lives and wealth because of the madness of bastard putin.
    They don't have a choice, they already in the same boat. You call Putin a coward, but somehow expect people around to be fearless and wise. They're all the same, it's autocracy, leader can't allow people better than him around - that's recipe for a coup.

  20. #6820
    Peresvet's Avatar Civis
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    russian, but emigrant from war
    Posts
    148

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    27% of russians believe that hostilities in Ukraine must be continued. 50% - for the start of peace negotiations, - Levada Center.

    50 % russians not support war.

    https://t.me/dmytrogordon_official/12743
    Last edited by Peresvet; December 24, 2022 at 11:50 AM.
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •