View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    92 69.17%
  • I support Russia fully.

    14 10.53%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 3.01%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    8 6.02%
  • Not sure.

    7 5.26%
  • I don't care.

    8 6.02%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #6661

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Exchanging Brittney Griner to Viktor "Merchant of Death" Bout? wtf...
    Clear win for Russia
    How can you say that?? Biden told me she’s hero to the LGBTMLOQPXYZ community!

    But that’s not even the worst of it. KSA claims MBS brokered the exchange, an allegation coinciding with the fact Biden recommended he be given immunity from prosecution for Khashoggi’s murder - overriding concerns from the Pentagon about the danger to American national security posed by Bout’s release. Whoever is really making the decisions in the White House, it’s clear the national interests of the US are secondary to their personal agenda.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  2. #6662
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    How can you say that?? Biden told me she’s hero to the LGBTMLOQPXYZ community!.
    look at it another way, they are exchanging a human being for a vermin.

  3. #6663
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    look at it another way, they are exchanging a human being for a vermin.
    Being LGBTMLOQPXYZ (sic) in Russia is basically illegal. Being a war profiteer is not. So in that sense, it is consistent. Someone who is untouchably LGBTMLOQPXYZ (sic) is a threat to social order for Putin, so it's best for the world that she is free to lobby for her community. Putin needs to show to his cronies that he will have their back if they get in trouble. He is remarkably tolerant and supportive of those who are important to him. Both countries are swapping someone who is important to the other for different reasons.

    But yeah. I doubt any American athletes are going to be touring Russia any time soon.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  4. #6664
    StarDreamer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea



    Seems like Crimeans very much considered themselves Ukrainians at least as of 2011.
    Oh shock and horror, peddlers of Russian propaganda use really old(30y old) data that is contradicted by more recent pre-occupation, pre Russian purging of the population data. I'm so shocked and surprised.
    Last edited by StarDreamer; December 09, 2022 at 01:23 PM.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
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  5. #6665
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Being LGBTMLOQPXYZ (sic) in Russia is basically illegal. Being a war profiteer is not. So in that sense, it is consistent.
    Smuggling narcotics is also illegal in russia, lets not forget thats why she was in prison, not for being lgbt

  6. #6666
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    For the record, I'd like to see peace with Ukraine taking back all other areas apart from Crimea (since Crimea is by large majority pro-Russian).
    That said, if nukes start hitting Ukraine, you should realize it has already lost due to there not being a return from your main cities being nuked.
    And if one wanted to make use of nukes palatable, they'd urge Ukraine to hit inside Russia - as they now do. So not a good idea at all, imo.
    Ahh so you did mean nukes. Why the obfuscation. China and India both made it clear they do not think nukes are an option for Russia. No matter what Peter the Great fantasy world he wants to live that more or less ended that saber rattling. Putin known he low man on the totem pole economically vs his sort of friends.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  7. #6667
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Exchanging Brittney Griner to Viktor "Merchant of Death" Bout? wtf...
    Clear win for Russia

    Err how. In any case not.

    Smuggling narcotics is also illegal in russia, lets not forget thats why she was in prison, not for being lgbt
    You are so right she what 20 kilos of consumables in luggage and was video taped on the corner selling to innocent pure Russian orphans - really that is line smuggling.
    Last edited by conon394; December 09, 2022 at 02:29 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  8. #6668
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    You are so right she what 20 kilos of consumables in luggage and was video taped on the corner selling to innocent pure Russian orphans - really that is line smuggling.
    Oh, no no, it wasnt 20 kilos, it was only some hashish oil. But in Russia, that is more than enough to get you a long prison sentence.
    The same way you dont try to smuggle alcohol to Saudi Arabia, unless you want to risk a long prison sentence.

  9. #6669

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Oh, no no, it wasnt 20 kilos, it was only some hashish oil. But in Russia, that is more than enough to get you a long prison sentence.
    The same way you dont try to smuggle alcohol to Saudi Arabia, unless you want to risk a long prison sentence.
    It wasn’t even an accusation. She and her team contended she had weed vapes “for medical reasons (lol).”
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  10. #6670
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    It wasn’t even an accusation. She and her team contended she had weed vapes “for medical reasons (lol).”
    But if she was John Smith, boring straight unknown tourist from Shelbyville, Missouri, who happened to get arrested for medicinal marijuana while travelling in Russia, chances are he'd still be in the gulag.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  11. #6671

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea



    Seems like Crimeans very much considered themselves Ukrainians at least as of 2011.
    There's also this paper, which also seems to point to popular approval of the annexation after the fact. However, there doesn't seem to be any definitive evidence one way or the other in regards to whether or not the referendum result in 2014, regardless of legitimacy or fairness, was correct (i.e. whether it actually reflected what a majority of the population wanted at the time or not).

  12. #6672

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    But if she was John Smith, boring straight unknown tourist from Shelbyville, Missouri, who happened to get arrested for medicinal marijuana while travelling in Russia, chances are he'd still be in the gulag.
    As it turns out, yes. His name is Marc Fogel.

    https://www.casey.senate.gov/news/re...ined-in-russia
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  13. #6673
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Smuggling narcotics is also illegal in russia, lets not forget thats why she was in prison, not for being lgbt
    She had 0.7g of hash oil for a vaporiser. I'm not entirely convinced that her 9 year sentence was even an appropriate application of Russian law, which suggests that possession of less than 6g being the Russian equivalent of a misdemeanour.

    Marc Fogel on the other hand, was arrested with 17g. Possession of which does earn one a more substantial sentence. The complicating factor of course, is possession while crossing the border. Which justifies a smuggling charge. But at 0.7g again, it leads to the suggestion that Griner's 9 year sentence was most likely because of who she was, not what she was caught with.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  14. #6674
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Oh, no no, it wasnt 20 kilos, it was only some hashish oil. But in Russia, that is more than enough to get you a long prison sentence.
    The same way you dont try to smuggle alcohol to Saudi Arabia, unless you want to risk a long prison sentence.
    Midnight Express vibes

    (good movie with great soundtrack)
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  15. #6675

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    How can you say that?? Biden told me she’s hero to the LGBTMLOQPXYZ community!

    But that’s not even the worst of it. KSA claims MBS brokered the exchange, an allegation coinciding with the fact Biden recommended he be given immunity from prosecution for Khashoggi’s murder - overriding concerns from the Pentagon about the danger to American national security posed by Bout’s release.
    Oh well if MBS says so I guess we should take his word for it.

    Biden told me she’s hero to the LGBTMLOQPXYZ community!
    See, I think you can't see beyond the right wing echo chamber. If you want to win over young people, assume they are better people than the average right winger and DON'T despise LGBTQ+ people solely because of who they are. Running on "We will do everything we can to harm those who are different from you." won't work much longer.

    Whoever is really making the decisions in the White House, it’s clear the national interests of the US are secondary to their personal agenda.
    I get it, you are emotionally devastated because Biden keeps beating your side. He beat you in 2020, he beat you in November, and he is beating you in Ukraine. And you are powerless to do anything about it.

  16. #6676

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    In an indictment of Bout issued in February 2010, the U.S. Justice Department alleged, “Bout, an international weapons trafficker since the 1990s, has carried out a massive weapons-trafficking business by assembling a fleet of cargo airplanes capable of transporting weapons and military equipment to various parts of the world, including Africa, South America, and the Middle East. The arms that Bout has sold or brokered have fueled conflicts and supported regimes in Afghanistan, Angola, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Liberia, Rwanda, Sierra Leone, and Sudan.”

    Crane, who went on to found the non-profit Global Accountability Network, which seeks justice for the victims of war crimes and crimes against humanity, said that the destruction wrought in Sierra Leone by the forces Bout armed was extensive.

“He was the main supplier of arms and ammunition…to that terrible conflict in West Africa, which saw the murder, rape, maiming and mutilation of over 1.2 million human beings,” Chase said.

    https://www.voanews.com/a/viktor-bou...-/6868302.html
    https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/09/polit...any/index.html

    Turns out the Biden Admin wanted to bend over even further for the Kremlin, but the Germans said no because Krasikov murdered someone. Just goes to show how ed up the White House’s priorities are, given Bout directly facilitated the deaths of thousands. I guess we can conclude BLM < LGBTQUVWXYZ. At this point, Whelan’s best bet is to announce he feels like a woman on the inside. Surely there are other mass murdering Russians in US prisons for Biden to send home.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; December 10, 2022 at 09:22 AM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  17. #6677
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    She had 0.7g of hash oil for a vaporiser. I'm not entirely convinced that her 9 year sentence was even an appropriate application of Russian law, which suggests that possession of less than 6g being the Russian equivalent of a misdemeanour.
    She was not charged with possession, she was charged for attempting to smuggle narcotics into Russia, much more serious crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Marc Fogel on the other hand, was arrested with 17g. Possession of which does earn one a more substantial sentence. The complicating factor of course, is possession while crossing the border. Which justifies a smuggling charge. But at 0.7g again, it leads to the suggestion that Griner's 9 year sentence was most likely because of who she was, not what she was caught with.
    The long sentence wasnt even important because after the Russians arrested her, Biden promised that he will bring her back. She is young, famous, woman, LGBT, minority, was sentenced for something which isnt even a crime in many parts of the US anymore, it was clear that she will be exchanged. I just didnt expect that they will exchange her to Viktor Bout, that dude was serving 25 years and unlike Griver he deserved every second of that. The Russians wanted to get him back for a decade and now he is free...
    This was a terrible trade.

    Russia is in dire need of weapons and now their legendary arms dealer is back in the business again.
    Also this sets the precedent that you can get even Viktor Bout caliber people out of US prisons through prisoner exchanges.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Midnight Express vibes

    (good movie with great soundtrack)
    Talking about movies, Viktor Bout inspired the 2005 Nicolas Cage movie, “Lord of War." (which is one of my favorite)

  18. #6678
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Merkel: Minsk agreements were meant to 'give Ukraine time'
    The Minsk accords were signed to "give Ukraine time" to strengthen itself
    I’m surprised, given Merkel put her political weight behind the deals. Is there any coverage of this confession in English language mainstream media?

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    I am preparing a movement in Spain to launch a lightning attack and take over Portugal because it is a country full of fascists. Then we will negotiate because Portugal cannot win the war and the Spanish we will keep everything north of Lisbon.
    Well, after the 25th of April, it is true that Franco's fascist Spain thought about invading Portugal. At that time,Portugal was a member of NATO, and the oldest ally of the United Kingdom. Spain was not a member of NATO.
    The irony is that Portugal was a founding member of NATO under Salazar, only because the Azores were of strategic interest to the US. Spain could have joined NATO before 1982, but it seems that NATO's interest in fascist Portugal was greater than NATO's interest in fascist Spain.( for NATO, there are good fascist and bad fascists). In Ukraine, the one party regime that rules Ukraine is just as democratic as the Russian regime, but according to Ursula's version, " is a vibrant democracy".
    --
    Edit: while we are on a joke marathon, furthermore, we do not speak Castilian, we are a single language country. On second thought, given the cultural affinities, it would make more sense for Galicia to join northern Portugal, and not northern Portugal to Spain. More seriously, for now, Iberism remains stuck between the ideal and reality.

    In this conflict it is important to remember some historical facts, more important than the so-called denazification of the Ukrainian regime. It is worth reading, because you have a very good understanding of Portuguese.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    ----
    Yuri Slezkine, Russian historian and scholar of the creation of the nationalities that made up the Soviet Union Yuri Slezkine, was in Lisbon two days ago for a conference on the Soviet empire (UC BerkeleyHistory Department)
    RUSSIA: IMPERIAL BREAKS AND CONTINUITIES - Culturgest
    Y. Slezkine made an analysis of the development of Soviet politics, from the October Revolution to the fall of the Berlin Wall, passing through the Soviet opposition to Nazi Germany and the relationship with the USA. . Slezkine made an analysis of the development of Soviet politics, from the October Revolution to the fall of the Berlin Wall, passing through the Soviet opposition to Nazi Germany and the relationship with the USA. Slezkyne says, in an interview to “Publico”,
    “The West has repeatedly sent Russia to the devil”, Ocidente mandou “várias vezes a Rússia para o diabo”
    #6600
    I would like to add that although Slezkine is a historian of the new generation, a critic of Putin and the regime and of having lived in the US for a long time, as a professor at Berkeley, his perspective on the conflict does not fail to reflect another vision of things - that information from Western media have been comfortably averse to listening,the one that many of you here subscribe to.
    Especially when he looks in history for part of the reasons for the conflict - yet another aversion from pro-NATO commentators, who think that history began on February 24, follow the link provided: "As a historian, I cannot imagine any Russian ruler, any tsar, any secretary general from the communist party saying that if Ukraine wants to join a hostile military alliance it is within its right… If NATO is closing in and becoming more hostile, what would you do if you were in the Kremlin?” Slezkine recalls, moreover, how post-Soviet Russia tried several times to approach the West - even asking to join NATO - and was always rejected.
    Last edited by Ludicus; December 10, 2022 at 02:23 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  19. #6679
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    The Russians wanted to get him back for a decade and now he is free...
    This was a terrible trade.
    Perhaps. Likely he'll be put out to pasture like all the other trades that Putin has made. He'll ride the talk shows and be a minor celebrity for a bit. But as far as buying weapons goes, he's likely too much of a celebrity to play in the shadows any more.

    This strengthens the regime, but not because there's another arms dealer in the fold. There are plenty of those already. His return is more important as a symbol that Putin will have your back if you have his. Everyone in Putin's circle knows that loyalty is rewarded - even if it takes a decade.

    All his other fixers and grifters can do their work confidently in the shadows, knowing full well that if they get caught, Putin has their back. It's a powerful thing.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  20. #6680
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    That was supposedly a KGB tradition too, all debts paid. Yes I read le Carre.

    The US model has been more effective overall, seems more pragmatic.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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