View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

Voters
133. You may not vote on this poll
  • I support Ukraine fully.

    92 69.17%
  • I support Russia fully.

    14 10.53%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 3.01%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    8 6.02%
  • Not sure.

    7 5.26%
  • I don't care.

    8 6.02%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #6601
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,145

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    "The Ukrainians have been getting weapons from NATO for 8 years, long before Putin decided to launch this war.
    One of the reasons Russia launched this war was that the US and NATO in general were arming Ukraine. The West was saying that Ukraine was not going to be part of NATO anytime soon, but in the meantime was sending them arms to make it a de facto member."

    Show me any significant NATO support before the seizure of the Crimea Ludicus and also pleas talk arms after - it rather quite small. And as a sovereign country I was unaware Ukraine was not allowed accept military aid.

    "You can't imagine any country facing an approach from a clearly hostile military alliance and telling it to advance its borders and point missiles at its territory."

    I missed that seems not to have happened.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  2. #6602
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Israel
    Posts
    6,055

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    I know Zelenskyy and CNN said it was terrorist and the Ukrainians at the time even called it an "Anti-Terrorist Operation" and NOT war (ironic eh!?).
    Zelensky wasn't president in 2014.
    But remember this is the same despot that banned all major opposition parties of Ukraine and lied when he tried to claim Russia fired a missile into Poland when in fact it was Ukraine that was responsible.
    "Despot" lol.
    It was an air defence missile that missed it's target. Naturally, when Russia indiscriminatly fires at civilian targets (though it might sometimes miss and accidentally hit a military target) and you hear a missile fell right across the border, you'd think it's Russia. This isn't lying, this is making assumptions, ones that turned out false.
    Because you've read it on Wikipedia or heard it on CNN so it must be true!?
    I don't watch CNN, bud. If you haven't gathered it by now, I'm very much right-wing.
    In fact Putin (at the time) made a public declaration, condemning the onset of the US invasion of Iraq as a great political error."
    People have said the same thing of Russia's invasion.
    At least the US was succesful in invading a country half a globe away, meanwhile Russia can't even take the regions of Ukraine right on its border.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus
    After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia genuinely wanted to be part of Europe - there was the slogan "from Lisbon to Vladivostok" - it was the dream of many people, including all sorts of leaders, as well as Putin. Obviously, Russia was rejected.
    They still say "Lisbon to Vladivostok", but it doesn't mean what you think it means.




  3. #6603
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    Posts
    9,238

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    It's not like Russia would have ever been accepted to the Eu; such would have permanently disrupted the center of power in that structure, with Russia having almost as many mps in euro parliament as France and Germany combined.
    So now you have a "European Union" which by default can't include more than half of Europe (which is the european part of Russia).
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  4. #6604
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,145

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Russia having almost as many mps in euro parliament as France and Germany combined.
    Add a per capita GDP weight.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  5. #6605

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Ukraine war: Russian military airfields hit by explosions
    Russian air defences intercepted Ukrainian drones over two military airfields in Russia, hundreds of kilometres from the border between the two countries, Russia said on Monday.


    It's amazing how Ukrainians make do with what they have. They ventured 100s of kms into Russian territory and still hit Russian military bases holding bomber planes precisely.



    Explosions rock two Russian airbases far from Ukraine frontline
    The Russian defence ministry confirmed the attacks on Monday, claiming two of its warplanes had been damaged when it intercepted two Ukrainian drones. For Kyiv the strike represented an unprecedented operation deep inside Russia to disrupt the Kremlin strategy of provoking a humanitarian catastrophe in Ukraine on the verge of winter.

    Russian media reports and video posted to social media indicated that an explosion occurred early on Monday morning at the Engels-2 airbase in Russia’s Saratov region, which hosts Tu-95 bombers that have taken part in cruise missile strikes against Ukraine.
    I am surprised to see Russia admitting to such an embarrassing defense failure. What is the Russian response?

    Ukraine war: Eighth wave of Russian missile attacks
    Russia has fired a barrage of missiles at targets across Ukraine for the eighth time in eight weeks.

    Significant disruption to the power grid was reported, mainly in the east. In the south, Odesa was without electricity.

    But the strikes, which came nearly two weeks after the last, may have done less damage than on previous occasions.

    Ukraine says it shot down 60 of the 70 missiles fired by Russia. Moscow says it hit all 17 of its targets.

    Previous attacks have hit the country's energy grid, leaving millions without electricity and heat as winter arrives.

    Warnings that Russia was planning a fresh wave of attacks have been circulating for several days. They eventually arrived just hours after a series of explosions at two airbases deep inside Russia, which Moscow blamed on Ukrainian drones intercepted by Russian air-defences.
    In this yet another so-called "rare occurrence" Russia shows military capability against Ukrainian precision strike on military targets deep into Russian territory by lashing out more missile strikes at civilian targets.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; December 05, 2022 at 01:59 PM.
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  6. #6606
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    Posts
    9,238

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Add a per capita GDP weight.
    Why not apply that to voters in each country too, so only the rich can vote
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  7. #6607
    Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    8,156

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    "Russia should have been allowed to be part of Europe, that way they wouldnt be forced to invade to denazify the Jewish Satanists of NATO, defensively."

    Is Kanye writing Putin's screeds now?
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  8. #6608
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    Posts
    9,238

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    It's pretty insulting to call Macron Kanye...
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  9. #6609
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Why do you want to know?
    Posts
    11,890

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post

    There were two reasons why this war was launched. One has to do with NATO and the United States, and the other has to do with Ukraine. The Bolsheviks somehow created artificial borders, made arbitrary decisions, like transferring Crimea to Ukraine.
    The point is that Ukraine is a patchwork and a recent creation.
    See, I can't really buy this, for a few reasons.

    This narrative has come into particular prominence amongst pro-Ukrainian historians, but there is of course the case for Ukraine's origin in the Wild Fields, or the Cossack hosts, which stood in defiance to Poland, Russia, the Ottomans, and the Tatars, building an independent state that resisted the incursions of imperial powers until finally being coaxed into the Russia Empire. The fact that this region was a crossroads for so many different groups gave it a distinct character which had caused it evolve away from the Rus cultural monolith that existed prior to the Mongols.

    Secondly, under what conditions can nationhood come into prominence? How can one people split from another? Did we decide suddenly that an arbitrary year, like say 1920, might be the cut-off? That if a people did not form a distinct sovereign nation prior to that time, it is too late? That no new identities might be formed, or that if they can, they cannot be recognized as distinct and accorded with authenticity?

  10. #6610

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    See, I can't really buy this, for a few reasons.

    This narrative has come into particular prominence amongst pro-Ukrainian historians, but there is of course the case for Ukraine's origin in the Wild Fields, or the Cossack hosts, which stood in defiance to Poland, Russia, the Ottomans, and the Tatars, building an independent state that resisted the incursions of imperial powers until finally being coaxed into the Russia Empire. The fact that this region was a crossroads for so many different groups gave it a distinct character which had caused it evolve away from the Rus cultural monolith that existed prior to the Mongols.
    While I agree with the base assertion that Ukraine is not a 'patchwork' (if only because barring Crimea the country has a consistently dominant ethnic/national identity), I don't think there's much basis for saying that there existed an independent Ukrainian state prior to 1917. The Zaprozhian host largely acted as a client for either the Russians or the Polish (like the other Cossack hosts) and I'm not sure whether it would be more accurately described as a Ukrainian entity or a specifically Cossack one.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    Secondly, under what conditions can nationhood come into prominence? How can one people split from another? Did we decide suddenly that an arbitrary year, like say 1920, might be the cut-off? That if a people did not form a distinct sovereign nation prior to that time, it is too late? That no new identities might be formed, or that if they can, they cannot be recognized as distinct and accorded with authenticity?
    That is a hideously complicated question, but to my understanding it is definitely possible for a 'national' identity to exist without the existence of an independent or autonomous state, although the process becomes more difficult.

  11. #6611
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,145

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Why not apply that to voters in each country too, so only the rich can vote
    It makes sense in votes in a super group entity of nation states. It would be odd indeed to give Russia as a state the same votes as France and Germany when their economies are ~4.5 times as large together than Russia's.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  12. #6612
    Stario's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Not the CCCP
    Posts
    1,998

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2
    At least the US was succesful in invading a country half a globe away, meanwhile Russia can't even take the regions of Ukraine right on its border.
    Russia has already destroyed the Ukranian military by June/July 2022.
    But instead of Russia being able to confront the Ukranian gov w the inevibility of their defeat by pointing to the destruction of the Ukranian military. Ukranian gov was able to respond w a reconstituted military brought in by NATO, and now attack the Russians who were overextended.
    Russia came in w 200k troops on the premise the Ukrainians are going to surrender. But instead they were confronted not only w severe Ukranian resistance but a new reconstituted Ukranian military doubing down on the conflict, Russia simply didn't have enough troops. And we saw this in Semptember when the Ukranians counter-attacked, the Russians were compelled to consolidate their defenses by withdrawing from Kharkiv.
    We saw what happened in Kherson the Russians made the decision to withdraw to consolidate, and they are still consolidating (87k troops have since come in and consolidated defense).
    Now (whether you believe this - only time will tell), it is reported 200k+ more Russian troops coming for Ukraine within the next month or so (that's 10-15 divisions that Ukraine doesn't have). Ukraine doesn't have them because they squandered everything in achieving these results.
    The Russians aren't playing the propaganda game, if Zelenskyy wants to visit Kherson and have his moment that is fine, but remember 10-15 Russian divisions are about to arrive into Ukraine in the next month or so and Ukraine doesn't have a response to this.
    And now we are going to see Russia transitioning into war (they will probably still call it a "Special Operation" but in reality - it's about to turn into outright war).
    So this war won't end until Russia has not only secured the totality of the territory that constitutionally comprises Russia (I believe Article 64 of Russian consitution answers/deals w the things pertaining to "Mother Russia" -perhaps look it up/google it), but has advanced sufficiently to push Ukranian artillery out of range of/away from Russian territory. Russia cannot tolerate Ukranian shelling of "Mother Russia" so this will happen at a minimum.
    The Russians have also stated they won't stop until they achieve all the objectives of the "Special Operation", w the two main objectives being 1. Denazification and 2. Demilitarisation of Ukraine...(now let me know if you want more explanation of these two objectives as they deserve a response of their own and are quite lengthy explanations).

    EDIT:
    Apologies for the lengthy explanations but I thought I just put it "out there" for not only yourself but also others to learn about (as this is not something you'll likely to hear on CNN/ western propaganda channels), already claiming Ukranian victory (clearly by the quotation of yours above, you like many westerners believe this MSM propaganda),when in fact the reality is far from it...
    Last edited by Stario; December 06, 2022 at 02:28 AM.

  13. #6613

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Russia getting more troops is not a positive factor for the Russian military. It's a positive factor for the Ukrainian military. With the level of training and equipment Russia is merely sending boys to get killed. It's also funny to claim that Russia can be over-extended on a small patch of its borders against a much smaller country. Ukrainian army lost a lot of soldiers, yes, but very few, if any commanders. Tens of thousands of troops are being trained in neighboring countries with proper quality and equipment. They are joining the fight as their training is finished every month as well. What we have to consider now is if Russia can wage war at all.
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  14. #6614
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Hungary
    Posts
    2,098

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    Now (whether you believe this - only time will tell), it is reported 200k+ more Russian troops coming for Ukraine within the next month or so (that's 10-15 divisions that Ukraine doesn't have). Ukraine doesn't have them because they squandered everything in achieving these results.
    The Russians aren't playing the propaganda game, if Zelenskyy wants to visit Kherson and have his moment that is fine, but remember 10-15 Russian divisions are about to arrive into Ukraine in the next month or so and Ukraine doesn't have a response to this.
    That would be 200k+ barely trained mobiks armed with only rifles, these are just conscripted civillians with zero motivation and morale.
    The logistics of the Russian army can hardly fulfill its task even now, the Russians simply wont be able to equip and feed 200k new soldiers, mobiks are already dying to hypothermia and winter is just starting. What Russia doesnt have is new officers and new modern weapons, and those will take years to replenish.

    Ukraine has 6 million+ men fit for military service so Ukraine will always locally outnumber the Russians, also Ukrainians are better trained, better equipped and extremly motivated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    And now we are going to see Russia transitioning into war (they will probably still call it a "Special Operation" but in reality - it's about to turn into outright war).
    I don't see what else they could do to win this "Special Operation".

  15. #6615
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Israel
    Posts
    6,055

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    it is reported 200k+ more Russian troops coming for Ukraine within the next month or so
    They'll be 200k+ corpses soon enough.
    The Russians aren't playing the propaganda game
    That's literally 90% of what they do.
    if Zelenskyy wants to visit Kherson and have his moment that is fine, but remember 10-15 Russian divisions are about to arrive into Ukraine in the next month or so and Ukraine doesn't have a response to this.
    10-15 poorly trained, and even more poorly equipped, divisions will just further overwhelm Russia's non existant logistics.
    And now we are going to see Russia transitioning into war (they will probably still call it a "Special Operation" but in reality - it's about to turn into outright war).
    So this war won't end until Russia has not only secured the totality of the territory that constitutionally comprises Russia (I believe Article 64 of Russian consitution answers/deals w the things pertaining to "Mother Russia" -perhaps look it up/google it), but has advanced sufficiently to push Ukranian artillery out of range of/away from Russian territory. Russia cannot tolerate Ukranian shelling of "Mother Russia" so this will happen at a minimum.
    The Russians have also stated they won't stop until they achieve all the objectives of the "Special Operation", w the two main objectives being 1. Denazification and 2. Demilitarisation of Ukraine...(now let me know if you want more explanation of these two objectives as they deserve a response of their own and are quite lengthy explanations).
    That you continue to speak of denazification is incredible to me. Russia "denazifying" Ukraine by sending in nazis (Wagner's Russich) is like saying that the Wehrmacht denazified Poland.
    EDIT:
    Apologies for the lengthy explanations but I thought I just put it "out there" for not only yourself but also others to learn about (as this is not something you'll likely to hear on CNN/ western propaganda channels), already claiming Ukranian victory (clearly by the quotation of yours above, you like many westerners believe this MSM propaganda),when in fact the reality is far from it...
    I don't get my news from the media, certainly not CNN as you continue to state even though I repeatedly informed you that I do not watch that. However, unlike you, I don't get my news from RT and RIA.

  16. #6616
    StarDreamer's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Finland, Espoo
    Posts
    2,326

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    There is only one country in this whole conflict that could be called Nazi, I'll give you a hint. It is the one doing the invading.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
    https://www.politicalcompass.org/ana...2.38&soc=-3.44 <-- "Dangerous far right bigot!" -SJWs

  17. #6617
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    Posts
    9,238

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I don't think so, at least not if one doesn't only lock into the "who invaded" (but then, why mention nazis; non-nazi countries invade too)
    It is true that a number of euro countries have a history of alliance with nazi Germany - eg Hungary, Croatia etc. It'd be good if at least their nazi-related soldiers aren't seen as national heroes.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  18. #6618
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    4,241

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Add a per capita GDP weight.
    It sure would be disruptive. Italy and Spain are bad enough (one might add France, actually), the € would never survive with Russia in the EU and the ECB would bleed the Germanic counties completely dry, which are pretty much the only ones left with still relatively healthy and vigorous economies.

    @Kyriakos: Obviously it wouldn't work. You talk like the EU had a moral obligation to include Russia. You might as well exchange Russia with Turkey or some other crazy suggestion in your comment.

  19. #6619

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Russia is not fit for EU for a number of reasons. A thoroughly corrupt dictatorship. And don't let pictures of Moscow and St. Petersburg fool you. If you take a look at towns in non-central locations in Streetview, you will discover that a lot of it is entirely undeveloped like a third-world country. Dirt roads and buildings that barely stand.

    That is why no one even wants Russian territory as their own burden. The leadership in Russia well knows that, as evidenced by them drawing their troops out of bases neighboring Finland and NATO countries. They know there is no attack coming and all that talk about security concerns is just smokescreen and playing western buffoons like Macron.

  20. #6620

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Despite of political changes in Russia (external only), the mentality of the authorities has not changed at all for many dacades.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •