Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

[Kyriakos]

Iraq was nation-built to three countries, from one ^^
Two of which are being bombed and/or invaded, btw.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

"Little empire" is a bit of a strange terminology, given current Russia is still (iirc) the fourth largest country ("empire", as you put it) in history. #3 largest was - again - Russia, but in the past.

And yet has a population lower than Bangladesh. Russia's empire was likely the least populous on that list.

Absolutely Putin needs to cleanse 'wokism' from Ukraine. 🤣

Schrodinger's Ukraine, both woke and nazi, and yet neither.
There's nothing woke about Ukraine.

Looking into some of his speeches Putin values the traditional nuclear family/way of life, and holds religion (atleast when it comes to the Orthodox church) in high esteem.
Did much to restore Russian Orthodox church etc.
'Wokism' and 'WEF' on the otherhand = global cancer...

I'm eligible for a Russian passport, on account of both my parents having one, and yet I'd rather live in a woke dystopia than Putin's Russia. A genocidal dictator is not preferrable to wokism, and I say this as an anti-woke person.

[conon394]

Iraq was nation-built to three countries, from one

When was one or a nation again?

Two of which are being bombed and/or invaded, btw.

Which two?

[Vanoi]

When was one or a nation again?



Which two?

Turks are bombing Iraqi Kurdistan. However everything else is pretty much under control of the Iraqi government. I don't think any other countries actually actively invading or bombing Iraqi territory except Turkey.

[Ludicus]

Do you remember the heated discussions on this topic? Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela
I recommend rereading, its pedagogic and instructive.
---
Goodbye, Gaidó, sic transit gloria Mundi. There is nothing better than exchanging one dictator for another, when it smells of oil.

The U.S. is trying to mend ties with Venezuela. One big One big reason? Oil Financial Times.

In response to a crackdown on democracy by Venezuela's authoritarian leader Nicolás Maduro, Washington in 2019 placed sanctions on the country's vital oil sector. Along with more than 50 countries, the U.S. recognized opposition leader Juan Guaidó as Venezuela's rightful president. And it encouraged the Venezuelan military to topple Maduro.
But none of this has worked.
Support for Guaidó, who wields no real power, is waning with more countries reengaging with Maduro. Now, Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the ban on Russian oil imports is prompting the U.S. to seek new sources of energy.
the Biden administration is extending a tentative olive branch to Venezuela.
Sanctions relief would help Venezuela rebuild its oil industry and allow its crude to start flowing to global markets again, including to the U.S., which used to be Venezuela's No. 1 buyer.

So, Chevron can resume key role in Venezuela's oil output, exports

The end of Guaidó’s “interim government” would close the chapter on one of the world’s more bizarre diplomatic experiments.

A coalition of more than 50 mainly western nations established formal relations with a shadow opposition administration to try to force regime change in Caracas after allegations that Maduro had rigged his re-election in 2018.

...coincides with a desire by the US and Europe, Guaidó’s main backers, to explore new sources of oil to replace Russian crude, which has been hit by sanctions implemented by the west.

Spain’s socialist foreign minister José Manuel Albares met Maduro’s chief diplomat Carlos Faría in New York during last month’s UN General Assembly to discuss “energy issues of mutual interest”

Some European governments are suggesting the need to advance an energy agenda with Maduro.

No lame excuses accepted. If a nuclear war does not occur, in a year or two they will start buying Russian oil again.

---

This war will end as soon as Russia withdraws from Ukraine.

Wishful thinking.I know that you know that's not going to happen.

[Vanoi]

Oh so now you hate Maduro? Funny enough you defended Maduro throughout the Venezuela thread and his predecessor Chavez. In fact you blamed every single economic woe Venezuela was experiencing on the West and did everything to discredit Guadio and the opposition because they were working with the West.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-new...otiation-table

You left out though that the US extending this olive branch involves them also restarting negotiations with the opposition. It's not as simple as Venezuela getting sanctions relief and they pump more oil. But telling the full story was never really your thing is it?

You flip flop worse than Lindsey Graham and that's not easy to do.

[conon394]

Turks are bombing Iraqi Kurdistan. However everything else is pretty much under control of the Iraqi government. I don't think any other countries actually actively invading or bombing Iraqi territory except Turkey.

Yes but does that qualify. The US left under the agreements it made - seems like a problem for the Iraq government. The US did not declare Iraq the 51 US state of Mesopotamia.

-----------------

@Ludicus

You do realize how democratic government works right. The Biden Admin is not the Trump admin nor the Obama one and not the preceding Bush one... Biden would appear to want to alter the previous policy of firm hostility. Why maybe indeed oil prices. Or maybe he just does not have any firm hostility to Maduro. And maybe the midterms passed so you know he got nothing t loose doing forign policy that might have risked some marginal votes.

In any case

Goodbye, Gaidó, sic transit gloria Mundi. There is nothing better than exchanging one dictator for another, when it smells of oil.

Again very much recall you know election Biden is not Trump.

[Ludicus]

@Ludicus You do realize how democratic government works right. The Biden Admin is not the Trump admin nor the Obama

Quite true,Conon, but Cuba still is “a state sponsor of terrorism”, a bizarre invention from Trump. Cuba, where, only a few years ago, Obama took the first steps towards détente in relations, In Cuba, Obama's detente becomes history as Trump threatens
...but was not able to end the blockade, which is terrorist and condemned by all countries, year after year, in the United Nations
---

Oh so now you hate Maduro?.

I was being ironic, can't you see the irony? In fact, how can I hate Maduro? the US is now in love with Maduro.

You left out though that the US extending this olive branch involves them also restarting negotiations with the opposition

In fact, I said: no lame excuses accepted.
That's a lame excuse, you know it. Completely irrelevant. As my previous link points out, “coincides with a desire by the US and Europe, Guaidó’s main backers, to explore new sources of oil to replace Russian crude, which has been hit by sanctions implemented by the west”
What a coincidence!

Edit: and btw, read my first post there,#13
--
I missed this,

"America bad...

Not exactly because it is not a dictatorship and because there is a right to freedom of expression: in fact the First Amendment law is the most speech-protective country in the world, and that’s great.

But it is also the country that has caused many social upheavals and wars all over the world. Much more is demanded of a so-called democratic country. I condemn Russia invasion, but at the same time I completely disagree with a one-sided narrative that excuses the Western role in what is now happening, I have said it repeatedly. Once again, I oppose the policy of sanctions that also hurt European citizens, pouring more weapons into Ukraine, and other actions that escalate the war and run the risk of igniting a direct conflict between NATO and Russia, and who knows, a nuclear war. There is no military solution to this war.
By the way, “state sponsor of terrorism” is a term of US law. Let’s talk about it: what do we have to say of the western sponsorship of Saudi terror in Yemen? Or ISIS, a product of French/American/ British and Gulf sponsorship in Syria and Iraq? Or about decades of US backed right wing terrorism against Cuba? The Contras in Nicaragua, death squads in Guatemala, in El Salvador, and let’s remember Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, or the Indonesian mass killing of communists, supported by the US and the UK. Many as one million people may have been killed by military death squads, The “Operation Jakarta”, in Chile, 1973, brought another dictator to the world stage. In Brazil, “Operation Jakarta" was also the name for an anticommunist extermination program around the same time. “The Jakarta method” became the codeword of the US backed mass killing The Jakarta Method Comes to Latin America (Review) - NACLA
Read the book

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Terror after terror. There is nothing constructive to say about this.

[PointOfViewGun]

To put it simply they are the same ("same s*hit"), but they are also NOT the same ("different smell").
But if Zelenskyy wins the WEF and the woke west wins...And murica will continue to be world police and continue as they have done (to rot the world economy and start wars)...
Better for world balance Putin wins in this case...

As twistedly false and illogical that is it doesn't justify you lying to defend Russian actions and performance.

I do not understand the hypocrisy of double standards. To NATO, everything is forgiven, justified in Serbia with western pro-NATO newspaper headlines such as "bombing for peace" !

How ironic that you have been committing to a monumental effort to justify and defend Russia's raping of Ukraine for pages and pages only to call hypocrisy on others because they didn't bend over for your tangent. What a shameful argument to make.

[Ludicus]

As twistedly false and illogical that is it doesn't justify you lying to defend Russian actions and performance.
How ironic that you have been committing to a monumental effort to justify and defend Russia's raping of Ukraine for pages and pages only to call hypocrisy on others because they didn't bend over for your tangent. What a shameful argument to make.

Shameful is what you are saying.All countries do the same thing when they are at war. The US has done even worse, and you don't like to hear it.You are the one who will have to make a monumental effort to prove otherwise.You are also making a monumental effort to ignore what is written and discussed in depth here, through an exhaustive Western legal analysis
Is attacking the electricity infrastructure used by civilians..?

Edit.
What is unrealistic, and deeply hypocritical, is to flood Ukraine with all kinds of weapons, day after day, and then not expect the enemy to use Ukraine's destruction of its energy grid to win the war. This has not happened for many months, nor would it happen if it were not for massive NATO assistance. NATO already knew this would happen.

[PointOfViewGun]

Shameful is what you are saying. All countries do the same thing when they are at war. The US has done even worse, and you don't like to hear it. You are the one who will have to make a monumental effort to prove otherwise. You are also making a monumental effort to ignore what is written and discussed in depth here, through an exhaustive Western legal analysis
Is attacking the electricity infrastructure used by civilians..?

Nothing shameful about recognizing the vile nature of the arguments you and Stario have been employing in this thread. Trying to classify pointing out the irrelevance and invalidity of your attempts to shift focus as me not liking to hear it doesn't really make up a sound argument. Simply shows lack of merit of your position. What your "Western legal analysis" seems to be doing there though is to ask people if the mountain they looking at is really a mountain and that they should look at the mountain from all angles to make sure its a mountain. Russian attacks on Ukrainian infrastructure of electricity and heating is neither limited nor proportional. They are meant to effect each and every Ukrainian citizen.

[Mithradates]

Shameful is what you are saying.All countries do the same thing when they are at war. The US has done even worse, and you don't like to hear it.You are the one who will have to make a monumental effort to prove otherwise.You are also making a monumental effort to ignore what is written and discussed in depth here, through an exhaustive Western legal analysis
Is attacking the electricity infrastructure used by civilians..?

Edit.
What is unrealistic, and deeply hypocritical, is to flood Ukraine with all kinds of weapons, day after day, and then not expect the enemy to use Ukraine's destruction of its energy grid to win the war. This has not happened for many months, nor would it happen if it were not for massive NATO assistance. NATO already knew this would happen.

It was expected that Russia will commit war crimes, they have been committing war crimes since the beginning of the war. Nobody expects civilized behavior from the psychopaths of the Kremlin.

The destruction of the Ukrainian power grid is a war crime. And no, nobody is forcing Russia to do it, they can leave Ukraine whenever they want, they can go home and nobody will follow them back to Russia.

Russia has already lost this war. Putin maneuvered himself into a position where he cant even negotiate for a ceasefire.

[PointOfViewGun]

Edit.
What is unrealistic, and deeply hypocritical, is to flood Ukraine with all kinds of weapons, day after day, and then not expect the enemy to use Ukraine's destruction of its energy grid to win the war. This has not happened for many months, nor would it happen if it were not for massive NATO assistance. NATO already knew this would happen.

Unrealistic? Hypocritical? Are you trying to come up with random terms now? How is it unrealistic or hypocritical to help Ukraine with weapons to defend themselves from Russian aggression? How does that make it OK or expected of Russians to target civilian infrastructure of Ukraine? The weapons in question does not rely on Ukrainian energy grid whatsoever. These weapons are utilized on the battle fronts, not near Kiev or Lviv where many Russian strikes hit.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Wishful thinking.I know that you know that's not going to happen.

Sure, just like them retreating from Kiev wasn't going to happen, nor them retreating from Kharkiv, nor them retreating from Kherson.

I condemn Russia invasion

Lol, no you don't. You defend and justify it, and call for Russia to be rewarded for it.

but at the same time I completely disagree with a one-sided narrative that excuses the Western role in what is now happening, I have said it repeatedly.

And I've brought up the rape analogy repeatedly in response. I'll do it again, too. "If Ukraine didn't want to get invaded it shouldn't have worn such a short skirt".

Once again, I oppose the policy of sanctions that also hurt European citizens, pouring more weapons into Ukraine, and other actions that escalate the war and run the risk of igniting a direct conflict between NATO and Russia, and who knows, a nuclear war.

When you say "escalate the war" you really mean "allowing Ukraine to defend itself".

There is no military solution to this war.

Correct, Russia should off. It cannot win this militarily, as it has repeatedly proven.

By the way, “state sponsor of terrorism” is a term of US law. Let’s talk about it: what do we have to say of the western sponsorship of Saudi terror in Yemen?

Saudi Arabia is supporting the government of Yemen. It's not invading Yemen.

Or ISIS, a product of French/American/ British and Gulf sponsorship in Syria and Iraq?

LOL
You dropped your tinfoil hat.

Or about decades of US backed right wing terrorism against Cuba? The Contras in Nicaragua, death squads in Guatemala, in El Salvador, and let’s remember Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, or the Indonesian mass killing of communists, supported by the US and the UK. Many as one million people may have been killed by military death squads, The “Operation Jakarta”, in Chile, 1973, brought another dictator to the world stage. In Brazil, “Operation Jakarta" was also the name for an anticommunist extermination program around the same time. “The Jakarta method” became the codeword of the US backed mass killing The Jakarta Method Comes to Latin America (Review) - NACLA
Read the book

With all due respect mate, I'm not reading an entire book to reply to you. Stop giving out homework

This is a long list of whataboutism, but ultimately every incident on this list has to do with regime change, not annexation and genocide. In fact the Cambodia regime you mentioned the US opposing was actively committing genocide.
Russia, on the other hand, seeks annexation and genocide, and purposefully targets civilian, not military, targets. Russia's goal is to cause as much harm to civilians as possible.

[conon394]

Quite true,Conon, but Cuba still is “a state sponsor of terrorism”, a bizarre invention from Trump. Cuba, where, only a few years ago, Obama took the first steps towards détente in relations, In Cuba, Obama's detente becomes history as Trump threatens
...but was not able to end the blockade, which is terrorist and condemned by all countries, year after year, in the United Nations

Every government is bounded by its domestic politics and external events. Of the top of my head the Cuban embargo is based on at least 4 or 5 specific acts of congress. Thus Biden w/o the house has no way in hades of repealing them. And even if did have the slim majority to do it and enough dirt to push conservative dems and the few remaining moderate republicans LBJ style what would he gain - more or less nothing. Does he flip FLA - nope does turn Texas purple nope.

Conversely walking back the harsh policies of previous admins does gain Biden something out of more oil on the market in the short run.

[Laser101]

This is a long list of whataboutism, but ultimately every incident on this list has to do with regime change, not annexation and genocide. In fact the Cambodia regime you mentioned the US opposing was actively committing genocide.
Russia, on the other hand, seeks annexation and genocide, and purposefully targets civilian, not military, targets. Russia's goal is to cause as much harm to civilians as possible.

IIRC the US didn't oppose the Khmer Rouge, and objected when the Vietnamese invaded Cambodia and deposed them (since Vietnam was aligned with the Soviets and the KR with China).

[nhytgbvfeco2]

IIRC the US didn't oppose the Khmer Rouge, and objected when the Vietnamese invaded Cambodia and deposed them (since Vietnam was aligned with the Soviets and the KR with China).

He was talking about the US bombing Cambodia during the Vietnam war, when the Khmer Rouge were fighting together with the Viet Cong against the Americans.

[Laser101]

It was expected that Russia will commit war crimes, they have been committing war crimes since the beginning of the war. Nobody expects civilized behavior from the psychopaths of the Kremlin.The destruction of the Ukrainian power grid is a war crime. And no, nobody is forcing Russia to do it, they can leave Ukraine whenever they want, they can go home and nobody will follow them back to Russia.Russia has already lost this war. Putin maneuvered himself into a position where he cant even negotiate for a ceasefire.

Technically it isn't strictly speaking, if the previously linked blog is accurate.

[Cyclops]

To those spinning arguments that we "have to let Russia win because...um...Castro I think", may I present this pearl: losing will be good for Russia.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-drone-defence

So there we have it, we all need to persuade Putin to surrender because, hey, its good.

Technically it isn't strictly speaking, if the previously linked blog is accurate.

Trying to think of a Laconic comeback.

[Stario]

Schrodinger's Ukraine, both woke and nazi, and yet neither.
There's nothing woke about Ukraine.

Nothing woke right. In fact eastern Europe thinks Western wokism = madness.
And that's exactly how it will remain if Russia prevails. On the otherhand not so much if a US + WEF backed Ukraine prevails.

I'm eligible for a Russian passport, on account of both my parents having one, and yet I'd rather live in a woke dystopia than Putin's Russia. A genocidal dictator is not preferrable to wokism, and I say this as an anti-woke person.

I actually lived in both "dystpian" east and "woke" west. I prefer neither.
Both systems are capable of destroying one's livelihood - one did it for refusing to join the communist party the other just substituted it w refusing to prescribe to having experimental vaccines (loss of bodily autonomy) etc.
But end results is still the same (no livelihood).
With that said the "dytopian" system atleast respected tradition and the nuclear family, the woke movement only leads to degeneration of the family unit and therefore I would argue is more corrosive...
The woke west and corrupt unelected institutions such as WEF and WHO is also why our economy is in shambles.
Both systems are terrible but with the fall of Ukraine sh*it like WEF will have that much less power over Eastern Europe atleast, and I am all for that.