View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    99 69.23%
  • I support Russia fully.

    15 10.49%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.80%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    10 6.99%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.90%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.59%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #6501
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    He was talking about the 1999 3 month bombing of Serbia. In that, Serbia didn't attack any other country; Kosovo was a region in Serbia, that had a lot of people who didn't want to be in Serbia - you might say like Crimea and Donbas.
    No

    Which is why I called the whataboutery:

    "Or are you whataboutering here? The legitimacy of NATO's actions in the 1990s doesn't have any bearing on the legitimacy of their actions now. Each case should be considered on it's own merits."

    Whether or not NATO was right to bomb Serbia for attacking it's own citizens is irrelevant when discussing weather NATO's support for Ukraine after Russia's invasion is justified.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  2. #6502
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    He was talking about the 1999 3 month bombing of Serbia. In that, Serbia didn't attack any other country; Kosovo was a region in Serbia, that had a lot of people who didn't want to be in Serbia - you might say like Crimea and Donbas.
    It was a autonomous region of Yugoslavia and Serbia unilaterality made it a region of Serbia and lot people there did not want that. Let's keep the facts correct.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #6503
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    I'd say Putin has to go all in with winter. When his decapitation attack failed and Ukraine did not collapse not sure he has to worry about resolve. Attacking infrastructure is what he can do and it will make life rather less than pleasant for Ukraine and he needs to see how Europe fairs as well with energy shortages. Probably his best bet is that if NATO does not significantly upgrade the gear Ukraine is getting - range of rocket artillery, quality of tanks and and armored vehicles, air defense and for f-sake planes he could well finally manage a solid force for invasion mark two come spring.
    Of course, a harsh winter was an effective weapon against the French army in 1812 and the Germany army during and after 1941; the current situation seems different because, by destroying infrastructure, Russian forces are using winter against both Ukraine's army and their civilian population. Yes, Russia's best best seems to be if NATO doesn't provide better gear. We'll see whether news reports of Ukrainian civilians suffering this winter will motivate NATO countries to provide better gear. You mentioned air defence - apparently NATO countries are sending IRIS-T SLM and NASAMS air-defense systems (Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty).

    Quote Originally Posted by Boudicca View Post
    I am rather worried that Putin will not go "all in" in winter. He will trie to continue the conflict and drag it out, just like he did since 2014. He will mobilize Russia further, trie to replenish reserves in some way - especially since there is always some money to be had from oil and gas and resources.
    Yes, I can see how the Russian strategy could be to prolong the war. As Laser101 said, the fact that Ukraine is being supplied by factories in other countries seems significant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    It's a bit of a moot point though. The other major goal of WW2 bombing campaigns (which were far larger in magnitude than the Russians' current actions) was to destroy an enemy's industrial base and hence their capacity to sustain the war effort. Since Ukraine is relying mainly on external deliveries, their arms supply base is out of the Russians' reach (a similar situation applied to American bombing in North Vietnam).
    The US announced in October that they would send four more HIMARS rocket launchers and "the Pentagon said it was giving Ukraine financing to build 18 more of the rocket launchers, a process that could take years." (New York Times) - it sounds like they're preparing to support Ukraine in a long war.
    Last edited by Alwyn; November 27, 2022 at 05:50 AM.

  4. #6504

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    What hypocrisy!?
    The hypocrisy of only saying Putin and Zelensky are the same while spending pages upon pages on lying to defend Russian actions and performance.
    The Armenian Issue
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  5. #6505
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    I do not understand the hypocrisy of double standards. To NATO, everything is forgiven, justified in Serbia with western pro-NATO newspaper headlines such as "bombing for peace" !

    Effects of NATO's bombing in the Balkans - The Lancet



    NATO's Latest Target: Yugoslavia's Economy


    By Michael Dobbs
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Sunday, April 25, 1999;


    When compared to Ukraine, civilian casualties in Yugoslavia were even higher, never smaller. The 78-days-long NATO bombing campaign in Yugoslavia between March 24 to June 10, 1999 caused the death of around 2,000 people, Bombing to Bring Peace | Wilson Center. In Ukraine, nine months into the war caused the death of around 6,500 people.

    Even the wiki knows,
    "America bad, therfore Russia should be allowed to commit warcrimes verging on genocide unopposed".

    The EU, considering Russia a state that promotes terrorism, obviously states that there is no room for any peace negotiations and that the only option of war is the total defeat of Putin through the continuous supply of arms to Ukraine until victory.
    Take note, this after nine months of war, the destruction of 50% of Ukraine's energy infrastructure, the ruin of its industrial fabric, an unprecedented crisis of refugees (about eight million) and internally displaced persons, the 33.4% reduction of its GDP, more than five million unemployed, and hundreds of thousands of human lives taken, all of this to start talking about peace. It seems to me that these winter months are the last chance for the Kiev regime to sign a peace agreement.According to Mark Milley, "the probability of a Ukrainian military victory is now extremely low, and he knows what he says.

    After all, Russian missile attacks do not stop, as Russia goes for the "Yugoslavias option" (I could have said "Syrian option") of trying to bomb Ukraine into the Middle Ages. Ukraine's infrastructure has already been almost completely destroyed.
    Unsurprisingly, Milley's words were poorly received in Kiev, provoking the opposite reaction to the one intended.
    This war will end as soon as Russia withdraws from Ukraine. There is no point putting pressure on Kiev.
    I do wonder however, how many more Russian retreats will it take for you to consider that perhaps Russia is unable to continue fighting long term? September saw them defeated in Kharkiv, northern Donetsk (Lyman) in October, and they fled Kherson in November. They might lose Svatove in December. For 3 months in a row Ukraine has been scoring huge victories, while Russia has been unable to take a single town since July, despite zerg rushing it non stop. Bakhmut puts Passchendaele to shame, and visually looks just like it too nowadays.

    Russia for over 4 months is unable to make any succesful push and is taking its frustration out on civilians.

  6. #6506
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    He was talking about the 1999 3 month bombing of Serbia. In that, Serbia didn't attack any other country; Kosovo was a region in Serbia, that had a lot of people who didn't want to be in Serbia - you might say like Crimea and Donbas.
    Did Ukrainians commit the same war crimes in Crimea and Donbass like the Serbs did in Kosovo?
    Last edited by Vanoi; November 27, 2022 at 10:42 AM.

  7. #6507
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Did Ukrainians commit the same war crimes in Crimea and Donbass like the Serbs did in Kosovo?
    You need to control an area to do crimes in it(other definition would open up a problematic debate about shelling the other side of the border). Crimea sort of changed hands in a day, and Donbass was set up in a manner similar to the Schleswig-Holstein in that other series for human rights; the first and second Danish-Prussian war.
    The second time, Denmark had no support from great powers, and the inevitable happened. Ironically, a main reason it had no support from great powers was that Russia was in the aftermath of the crimean war and couldn't help.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  8. #6508
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    According to Mark Milley, "the probability of a Ukrainian military victory is now extremely low, and he knows what he says.
    ...

    Unsurprisingly, Milley's words were poorly received in Kiev, provoking the opposite reaction to the one intended.
    ...

    ...a country that is being encouraged to fight to the last man, and cannot even admit any other possibility than an impossible victory,
    So, after all, the US doesn't want to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian?

    Biden should just call Zelenskyy and order him to stop this senseless Ukrainian warmongering! Da!

  9. #6509
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    You need to control an area to do crimes in it(other definition would open up a problematic debate about shelling the other side of the border). Crimea sort of changed hands in a day, and Donbass was set up in a manner similar to the Schleswig-Holstein in that other series for human rights; the first and second Danish-Prussian war.
    The second time, Denmark had no support from great powers, and the inevitable happened. Ironically, a main reason it had no support from great powers was that Russia was in the aftermath of the crimean war and couldn't help.
    War crimes can certainly be committed regardless if you actually fully control a region or not. Donbass certainly isn't comparable Schleswig-Holstein unless it was the Germans sending men across the border into Denmark to ferment rebellion like the Russians did in Donbass.

  10. #6510
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Shouldn't we be getting another round of false flag "Ukrainians 'bout to nuke themselves" from the Russian side?

    Russia-Ukraine war live: UK confirms supply of missiles to Kyiv as Russian forces might be preparing to leave Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant | Ukraine | The Guardian

    Russians bugging out of more portions of their new Empire inside the first year. Once again don't compare them to Nazis, the Nazis could actually fight.

    Russia's entire attack is a terror operation. Not sure they have to organizational skill to make a genocide happen but by golly they are giving it the good old college try.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  11. #6511
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Shouldn't we be getting another round of false flag "Ukrainians 'bout to nuke themselves" from the Russian side?

    Russia-Ukraine war live: UK confirms supply of missiles to Kyiv as Russian forces might be preparing to leave Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant | Ukraine | The Guardian

    Russians bugging out of more portions of their new Empire inside the first year. Once again don't compare them to Nazis, the Nazis could actually fight.

    Russia's entire attack is a terror operation. Not sure they have to organizational skill to make a genocide happen but by golly they are giving it the good old college try.
    The nazis sort of were clearly far worse, as a people who literally waged war believing they are a master-race Indeed, no real comparison to just another superpower trying to steal stuff due to greed, seen that movie many times before since the end of ww2.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  12. #6512
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The hypocrisy of only saying Putin and Zelensky are the same while spending pages upon pages on lying to defend Russian actions and performance.
    To put it simply they are the same ("same s*hit"), but they are also NOT the same ("different smell").
    But if Zelenskyy wins the WEF and the woke west wins...And murica will continue to be world police and continue as they have done (to rot the world economy and start wars)...
    Better for world balance Putin wins in this case...
    Last edited by Stario; November 27, 2022 at 04:54 PM.

  13. #6513
    StarDreamer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    The nazis sort of were clearly far worse, as a people who literally waged war believing they are a master-race Indeed, no real comparison to just another superpower trying to steal stuff due to greed, seen that movie many times before since the end of ww2.
    You clearly have not been watching any Russian propaganda to their own people. The idea of Russians being a "master race" is very prevalent there. I mean the whole idea of this war is that Russia has some "right" to rule over Ukrainians.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
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  14. #6514

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    To put it simply they are the same ("same s*hit"), but they are also NOT the same ("different smell").
    But if Zelenskyy wins the WEF and the woke west wins...And murica will continue to be world police and continue as they have done (to rot the world economy and start wars)...
    Better for world balance Putin wins in this case...
    You go ahead and wrap that Russian propaganda around yourself like a security blanket. But I think if you were to look outside your window one day to see Russian stormtroopers dragging out every female from newborn to elderly they can get their claws on and shooting anyone who resisted, your opinion of them might change. Slightly.

    "Woke" doesn't mean what you have been told it means. It simply means "alert to injustice in society, especially racism," per the Oxford English Dictionary. Decent people realize that's not a bad thing, and that the reason Russians and redhats hate the idea is because blaming minorities for their own failings is the only way they can function.

  15. #6515
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    But if Zelenskyy wins the WEF and the woke west wins...And murica will continue to be world police and continue as they have done (to rot the world economy and start wars)...
    If Zelensky wins we return to pre 2014 borders, the end. If Putin wins he'll continue to invade neighbouring countries and will ethnically cleanse all Ukranians from his little "empire".
    Wishing Putin to win to stop wokism is like wishing cancer to win to stop a flu.
    Better for world balance Putin wins in this case...
    Absolutely not.

  16. #6516
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    "Little empire" is a bit of a strange terminology, given current Russia is still (iirc) the fourth largest country ("empire", as you put it) in history. #3 largest was - again - Russia, but in the past.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  17. #6517
    Stario's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    If Zelensky wins we return to pre 2014 borders, the end. If Putin wins he'll continue to invade neighbouring countries and will ethnically cleanse all Ukranians from his little "empire".
    Wishing Putin to win to stop wokism is like wishing cancer to win to stop a flu.

    Absolutely not.
    Absolutely Putin needs to cleanse 'wokism' from Ukraine. 🤣
    Looking into some of his speeches Putin values the traditional nuclear family/way of life, and holds religion (atleast when it comes to the Orthodox church) in high esteem.
    Did much to restore Russian Orthodox church etc.
    'Wokism' and 'WEF' on the otherhand = global cancer...
    Last edited by Stario; November 28, 2022 at 07:25 AM.

  18. #6518
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    U.S. weighs sending 100-mile strike weapon to Ukraine

    The Pentagon is considering a Boeing proposal to supply Ukraine with cheap, small precision bombs fitted onto abundantly available rockets, allowing Kyiv to strike far behind Russian lines
    ...

    Boeing's proposed system, dubbed Ground-Launched Small Diameter Bomb (GLSDB)... It combines the GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb (SDB) with the M26 rocket motor, both of which are common in U.S. inventories.

    Doug Bush, the U.S. Army's chief weapons buyer, told reporters at the Pentagon last week the Army was also looking at accelerating production of 155 millimeter artillery shells - currently only manufactured at government facilities - by allowing defense contractors to build them.
    GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb
    Ukraine has long wanted the ATACMS missiles for their long range. The GLSDB would be a compromise giving them a range of some 150 kilometres (94 miles) using a M26 rocket engine and a GBU-39. Both the SDB and the M26 are common in the US arsenal. It could be delivered by early 2023 using surplus bombs from the conflict in Afghanistan.


  19. #6519
    Stario's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    U.S. weighs sending 100-mile strike weapon to Ukraine



    GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb
    Ukraine has long wanted the ATACMS missiles for their long range. The GLSDB would be a compromise giving them a range of some 150 kilometres (94 miles) using a M26 rocket engine and a GBU-39. Both the SDB and the M26 are common in the US arsenal. It could be delivered by early 2023 using surplus bombs from the conflict in Afghanistan.


    I wonder how long till murica abandons Ukraine like they did Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan et al.🤬
    Judging by muricas hx it doesn't look good for Zelenskyy...
    Last edited by Stario; November 28, 2022 at 07:18 AM.

  20. #6520
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    [/spoiler]
    I wonder how long till murica abandons Ukraine like they did Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan et al.郎
    Judging by muricas hx it doesn't look good for Zelenskyy...
    Those don't add up. After 20 years in A-stan nothing to abandoned if the government, military and people don't want to fight. Iraq don't see any abandonment. Vietnam yes OK but but in narrow terms Zelensky has over 15 years to not worry yet.

    ---------------

    You know the media likes highlight cost over runs in the pentagon but surprising clever and inexpensive stuff almost never a head line from the US media
    Last edited by conon394; November 28, 2022 at 07:34 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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