View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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148. You may not vote on this poll
  • I support Ukraine fully.

    103 69.59%
  • I support Russia fully.

    15 10.14%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.70%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.43%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.73%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.41%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #6421
    StarDreamer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Any "peace" agreement that restricts Ukraine's freedom to choose its foreign policy is clearly not going to lead to a lasting peace, it would just be a ceasefire for a short time. Talk of "neutrality" is just a veiled way to say Ukraine should be Russia's .
    Due to the necessity to reinforce national sovereignty a return to the internationally recognized borders of Ukraine, a return to the pre-invasion 2014 borders, is also a necessary part of any peace. This war will have to continue until RF can accept that it will have to withdraw back beyond its own borders and that it doesn't get to impose anything on Ukraine.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
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  2. #6422

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    At the hand of Ukrainian fighters. They haven't died from boredom.
    At the hands of government affiliated Ukrainians, separatist Ukrainians and Russians. You make it appear as if all of them were killed by Ukrainian government forces which is quite deceptive.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Yes. As of November 13, 2022: 6,557. That's because you can't talk about one thing and forget the other. That is why it is good to see the French documentary about the war in the Donbas from 2014 until now.
    Furthermore, the number of civilian deaths in the Russia war on Ukraine is a relatively low number for a brutal war that has lasted for more than 8 months, by comparison with other wars. There are occasions when hundreds of soldiers die in a single day, from both sides. 82 missiles fired by Russia a few days ago cost 721 million Euros. It would be a waste of money if missiles were thrown on purpose at a building with civilians. Right now, Russia is selectively attacking energy infrastructures.
    You have been talking about one thing and forgetting the other so well so far in your defense of Russia's raping. Once again, here you are trying to push us into seeing Russia's strikes on civilian targets as a positive thing. See? You did it again. Energy infrastructure is a civilian target. You wouldn't defend Israeli strikes on Gazan energy infrastructure. What you're arguing here is extremely hypocritical.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Yes. I could also have drawn your attention to other wars .We are talking about numbers, the number of civilian deaths. it is always good to compare, to have a fair perspective.
    It's not good when you have to go back 50 years to name a comparison as you are not after the comparison value but to sensationalize deaths.
    The Armenian Issue

  3. #6423

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    Talk of "neutrality" is just a veiled way to say Ukraine should be Russia's .
    Exactly. Under the USSR (AKA the good old days for Russia and it's apologists), all of the occupied countries had to be subservient to Russia and their people were no more than tools and cattle as far as Moscow was concerned. Any attempts at self-governance or standing up for human rights were met with brutal crackdowns involving raping, torturing, murdering, and enslaving tens of thousands and sometimes hundreds of thousands, such was the case in Hungary and Czechoslovakia.

    That's why the current Russian state and it's apologists still have a problem with ex-USSR slave states getting "uppity" and "woke" by rejecting Russian tyranny. To the anger of Russia and it's apologists the people of these nations just won't lay down and accept their lot in life is to be raped and enslaved by Russia supermen like in the good old days.

  4. #6424
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Russia leaving Crimea would be very impressive, and also very unlikely to happen. So if that is the end, you are fine with the war going on indefinitely.

    One wonders where is the point where the citizens of Ukraine's will to take back more of their territory, becomes less than the will of people in some other countries to see Russia lose. I don't think we reached this point already, but also don't see any reason why it won't be reached; being bombed back to pre-electricity era isn't fun.
    Last edited by Kyriakos; November 21, 2022 at 08:06 AM.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  5. #6425
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    You act as if Russia is the only country to invade someone since forever. Meanwhile, there are a few ongoing (=> concurrent) other invasions, and nato is fine with them - some even are run by nato members.
    Which current on-going NATO invasions are there?

  6. #6426
    Stario's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    Exactly. Under the USSR (AKA the good old days for Russia and it's apologists), all of the occupied countries had to be subservient to Russia and their people were no more than tools and cattle as far as Moscow was concerned. Any attempts at self-governance or standing up for human rights were met with brutal crackdowns involving raping, torturing, murdering, and enslaving tens of thousands and sometimes hundreds of thousands, such was the case in Hungary and Czechoslovakia.
    As for Czechoslovakia and actually living in the country and being there at the time. All I can say the majority of the "raping", "torturing" and "murdering" was done by Ukranians (you can also add terrorism, and kidnapping).
    And thus we hate them just as much as the Russians.
    Ideally this war will drag on to the point whereby both Russia and Ukraine end-up economically ruined (albeit Ukraine is already there at this point imo), and the rotten WEF(an unelected organisation w no place in a democracy) is also destroyed in the process.
    Only then can we start again, pour a good foundation and rebuild...
    Last edited by Stario; November 21, 2022 at 01:25 PM.

  7. #6427

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    As for Czechoslovakia and actually living in the country and being there at the time. All I can say the majority of the "raping", "torturing" and "murdering" was done by Ukranians (you can also add terrorism, and kidnapping).
    And thus we hate them just as much as the Russians.
    I'll say this only once, as Czech.

    Bull feces (and don't censor me this time TWC). You are lying like Lavrov.

    The amount of aid to Ukrainians that we mobilized is unprecedented in our history both in speed and amount. Beside the government aid that in terms of GDP percentage exceeds USA, there's a massive amount of aid going through private channels, from people donating to Ukrainian embassy to crowdfunding a tank. Of course, you'll hear a lot of complaining, general ing and jokes of all kind, including those that might warrant a jail time in some excessively sensitive countries, but had you actually lived here, you'd know that's our nature. We joke and complain about everything, but what really matters are actions...and I can sincerely say that the whole country got up from their collective asses like never since 1989. But many people are unhappy how the government handled the energy price spike, and there's still an active commie fifth column around....

    Edit: Funny that in your "being here all the time", you failed to notice that Czechoslovakia ceased to exist almost 30 years ago.
    Last edited by Sar1n; November 21, 2022 at 04:10 PM.

  8. #6428
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Of course, you'll hear a lot of complaining, general ing and jokes of all kind [...] but had you actually lived here, you'd know that's our nature.
    Good soldier Ukrejk
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  9. #6429

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Good soldier Ukrejk
    Hah, that's entirely different thing. But now that you've mentioned it...let's see if Stario, with his supposed knowledge of Czech mentality, can explain the difference.

  10. #6430
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    At the hands of government affiliated Ukrainians,
    Those who threatened to kill Zelensky with a bullet in the head when he went there after he was elected President? There is a video around here that shows this interesting conversation. At the hands of Ukrainians, period.Watch the French video, to understand the suffering of the Russians of the Donbas over many years years.
    ----
    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    energy infrastructure is a civilian target.
    Nope, not necessarily.By the way, that's what NATO did in Yugoslavia NATO Warplanes Jolt Yugoslav Power Grid

    NATO airstrikes on Yugoslavia's power grid left millions of people without electricity or water service today,bringing the war over Kosovo more directly into the lives of civilians across the country.Three consecutive nights of air attacks caused extensive blackouts in Belgrade, Novi Sad, and Nis, the three largest cities in Serbia, Yugoslavia's dominant republic. In contrast with previous attacks on the power supply – in which allied warplanes triggered temporary outages by dropping carbon-fiber filaments that shorted out electrical lines – NATO forces this time struck at Serbia's five major power-transmission stations with high-explosive munitions, causing damage that could take weeks to repair.
    Read the fine American Manual, DoD Law of War Manual (Updated Dec 2016)

    attacks that are otherwise lawful are “not rendered unlawful if they happen to result in diminished civilian morale.”

    Military objectives, insofar as objects are concerned, include “any object which by its nature, location, purpose or use makes an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage.”
    Electric power stations are generally recognized to be of sufficient importance to a State’s capacity to meet its wartime needs of communication, transport, and industry so as usually to qualify as military objectives during armed conflicts
    It seems that Ukraine’s military is no less dependent onthe commercial power grid then the US military when operating at home,Deterring Attacks Against the Power Grid - RAND Corporation

    The U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) increasingly relies on electric power to accomplish critical missions. As a result, ensuring that forces and facilities have access to a reliable supply of electric power is critical for mission assurance. However, DoD does not directly manage its supply of power; most of the electricity consumed by military installations in the continental United States comes from the commercial grid—a system that is largely outside of DoD control and increasingly vulnerable to both natural hazards and deliberate attacks. The fact that most electricity consumed by DoD installations in the continental United States is drawn from the commercial electric power grid…underscores the significance of DoD’s reliance on that power grid.
    The Starlink system is dependent upon commercial electrical power: Ukraine Could Never Afford to Bet on Starlink - WIRED
    an essential tool for the Ukranian military to coordinate across thousands of kilometers of combat theater
    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You wouldn't defend Israeli strikes on Gazan energy infrastructure
    I did not know that Israel is at war with Gaza, we can develop this topic if you are interested, but it is still funny to try to compare Gaza with Ukraine.
    ---
    According to the news,
    Zelensky advisor Andrii Yermak, continue Ukraine’s pushback against the idea that it was a Ukrainian missile that had accidentally entered Polish airspace…Ukraine is “working really closely” with Poland to “investigate what really happened,” Yermak said
    No, Ukraine is not “working really closely" with Poland.

    President Duda:
    If Ukrainian guests want to see the investigation, we will be able to show them, just as I have been shown," Duda said on Thursday during a visit to Przewodow, a village 6 km (4 miles) from the Ukrainian border where the missile landed.
    And then he adds,
    When it comes to participating in the investigation and access to documents and information, this requires specific treaty provisions, international law provisions, international agreements"
    From the Guardian,
    Zelenskiy urges Nato to protect nuclear facilities from “Russian sabotage”.
    Or Ukrainian sabotage, more probably. Not going to happen,of course, but the risks of escalation are rising fast. The Washington Post recognizes the danger, How the Russia-Ukraine War Can and Cannot End

    The White House went into damage-control mode after General Mark Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, suggested that there’s no military solution to the Russia-Ukraine conflict and diplomacy is needed to end it: The official US position is that Ukraine itself should set the terms of the peace and decide when, if ever, it’s ready to talk.

    Yet after Tuesday’s incident with two missiles landing in Polish territory after a massive Russian strike on Ukrainian power stations, it should be clear why Milley appeared to swim against the U.S. policy tide.

    The danger of accidental escalation, or World War III, of a nuclear exchange is ever-present while large-scale military action continues in Ukraine. Even if the projectiles that hit Poland were fired by the Ukrainian missile defense and Poland and its NATO allies treat the strike as an accident, there’s no guarantee the next alarm won’t lead to a need for NATO to get fully involved. (1)

    In many ways, the US even profits from the conflict as its defense industry receives more orders, its energy exports become indispensable and its status as the Western world’s security pillar is consolidated — but only until it finds itself in an escalation spiral.

    … That’s why Milley called on the sides to reach a “mutual recognition” that an end to the war — meaning a quick enough end — is “maybe not achievable by military means.”

    As it drags out, more incidents like the Polish one will threaten to upend all the wargaming and editorializing. And Ukrainians and Russians will keep dying by the thousands.
    Even here, I heard someone say that NATO should be fully involved in the war.
    Last edited by Ludicus; November 21, 2022 at 05:28 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  11. #6431
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Russia leaving Crimea would be very impressive, and also very unlikely to happen.
    Russia failing to take Kyiv was impressive and also very unlikely to happen. Russia being kicked out of Kherson was very impressive and also very unlikely to happen. Its an impressive and very unlikely war so far.

    Russia seems to feel it is owed victory, by Ukraine, or by NATO or by someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    So if that is the end, you are fine with the war going on indefinitely.
    Russia says it is not war. Russia invaded, they are the ones who think the war is fine. There's no onus on anyone but the terrorist scum in the kremlin to end this terrorist invasion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    One wonders where is the point where the citizens of Ukraine's will to take back more of their territory, becomes less than the will of people in some other countries to see Russia lose. I don't think we reached this point already, but also don't see any reason why it won't be reached; being bombed back to pre-electricity era isn't fun.
    No it is not fun, it is terrorism.

    Speaking of the will of the people, the only army to withdraw from a provincial capital that it claims to be in its own territory is Russia. Putin's easy transition into further depths of terrorism suggests increasing desperation. Likewise the mobilization farce. Likewise the mishandling of the naval assets.

    I think the Russian army is trashed. I think Putin is a sick, scared man. I am in favour of supporting Ukraine with a lot more resources than presently being supplied as it will stymie Putin's terrorist attack.

    The question is how many more commanders with Putin throw out a window before he is made an hero.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  12. #6432

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Those who threatened to kill Zelensky with a bullet in the head when he went there after he was elected President? There is a video around here that shows this interesting conversation. At the hands of Ukrainians, period.Watch the French video, to understand the suffering of the Russians of the Donbas over many years years.
    Basically you're claiming that the separatist Ukrainians and Russian soldiers in Donbas did not kill a single civilian in over 8 years. What a lazy lie to commit to that lacks any ounce of intelligent argument as you further try to defend Russia's raping of Ukraine.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Nope, not necessarily.By the way, that's what NATO did in Yugoslavia NATO Warplanes Jolt Yugoslav Power Grid
    Read the fine American Manual, DoD Law of War Manual (Updated Dec 2016)
    It seems that Ukraine’s military is no less dependent onthe commercial power grid then the US military when operating at home,Deterring Attacks Against the Power Grid - RAND Corporation
    The Starlink system is dependent upon commercial electrical power: Ukraine Could Never Afford to Bet on Starlink - WIRED
    What NATO did over 20 years ago doesn't determine what's a civilian target and what's not. What you're throwing there is an awfully bad argument to argue in defense of Russia's indiscriminate bombing of Ukrainian cities to terrorize Ukrainians against supporting their government's defense of their borders. Your position is not just immoral, its unintellectual.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    I did not know that Israel is at war with Gaza, we can develop this topic if you are interested, but it is still funny to try to compare Gaza with Ukraine.
    That's a bad deflection. The hypocrisy is not dependent whether Israel is at war with Gaza or not.
    The Armenian Issue

  13. #6433

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Russian says the quiet part out loud:

    https://www.newsweek.com/putin-ally-...attack-1761140

    Russian negotiations with Ukraine are a ruse to delay the war until Russia regains strength to attack, a politician and novelist recently said on Russian state television.
    Earlier this month, the Russian Foreign Ministry held a press conference in which spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said the nation was open to peace talks and is "ready to negotiate". The Russian Foreign Ministry slammed Ukraine for withdrawing from the negotiation process, but Zakhar Prilepin, who is wanted for war crimes in Ukraine, told Russian state television that negotiations were a ploy to delay the war until Russia could attack with increased forces.

    Prilepin told Russian television host Olga Skabeyeva that Russia hoped to start negotiations with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. However, despite the outcome, Prilepin expects the fighting to continue.
    "I understand that it's strategically important for us to drag out this situation," Prilepin said of the negotiations with Zelensky. "We clearly aren't ready to launch offensive actions."
    Prilepin said pursuing negotiations with Ukraine would buy Russia enough time to double the size of its forces before advancing.
    Any future offers of negotiation by Russia must now be seen as bad faith deceptions.

  14. #6434
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    The Washington Post recognizes the danger, How the Russia-Ukraine War Can and Cannot End
    That is a pretty poor piece Ludicus. It's arguing we have to choose between a Russian victory and full escalation, but its weakest point is where it dismisses a negotiated peace as 'the least likely outcome'. It's just a rubbish argument.

    A deal whereby Russia keeps any Ukrainian territory at all is a political impossibility for any Ukrainian government. Even if Western support dries up to a trickle, Zelenskiy will be forced to fight on because that’s what the majority of Ukrainians insists on; that’s why he stood and fought before much of the aid arrived. And even if Zelenskiy, or some successor, weakens and does a deal, it will not stand for long.*The Finns, defeated by the Soviets in the Winter War of 1939-1940, came back with the Nazi invading force in 1941, retook the lost territory and only stopped some 20 miles from the center of Leningrad.
    This is just too bizarre to contemplate. There is no doubt at all that NATO, i.e. de facto the US, will determine when Zelenski should negotiate or not. Will a negotiated peace where Putin gets to keep some of the gains satisfy Ukrainians? Of course not, but without Western aid they can't fight on.

    The argument that such a treaty would not "resolve the conflict" is simply irrelevant. We're talking about the end of war. It's not the same thing.. The question of Norther Ireland was never "resolved". Yet there's been peace there for 30 years. That's what counts. In 30 years, Putin will be dead. Who knows what else will have happened.

    As for the fears in the West about further Russian incursions,they have shown their hand, militarily, and it's proven to be a pretty dismal one. In that sense they have already lost. They certainly can forget about pulling off another stunt like this any time soon. It's purely about a settlement in Ukraine now, and it mostly hinges on whatever Putin believes he has to do to remain in power and the US' cost benefit analysis of continued military support.
    Last edited by Muizer; November 22, 2022 at 04:24 AM.
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  15. #6435

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    That is a pretty poor piece Ludicus. It's arguing we have to choose between a Russian victory and full escalation,
    Speaking of escalation, a fact that the apologists willfully ignore is that neither Ukraine, the US or any NATO members have done anything to escalate this war.

    Neither Ukraine, the US or any NATO members have invaded Russia.

    Neither Ukraine, the US or any NATO members have committed war crimes against Russian civilians.

    Neither Ukraine, the US or any NATO members have called for the complete destruction of Russia and genocide of it's people.

    Neither Ukraine, the US or any NATO members have threatened to use nuclear weapons against Russia.

    The only one who is escalating this war is Russia.

  16. #6436
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    The only one who is escalating this war is Russia.
    As far as I'm concerned that is obvious, but it is pretty much a non-issue, because a 'just' outcome is not a realistic war aim for any party.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  17. #6437
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    As far as I'm concerned that is obvious, but it is pretty much a non-issue, because a 'just' outcome is not a realistic war aim for any party.
    Youre right, and its likely at the end of this Ukraine will have to eat a **** sandwich someone else made.

    I am just melting down because apologists keep insisting Putin deserves steak. He deserves **** sandwiches too.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  18. #6438

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    Speaking of escalation, a fact that the apologists willfully ignore is that neither Ukraine, the US or any NATO members have done anything to escalate this war.

    Neither Ukraine, the US or any NATO members have invaded Russia.

    Neither Ukraine, the US or any NATO members have committed war crimes against Russian civilians.

    Neither Ukraine, the US or any NATO members have called for the complete destruction of Russia and genocide of it's people.

    Neither Ukraine, the US or any NATO members have threatened to use nuclear weapons against Russia.

    The only one who is escalating this war is Russia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    As far as I'm concerned that is obvious, but it is pretty much a non-issue, because a 'just' outcome is not a realistic war aim for any party.
    I still find these reminders like the one Coughdrop addict wrote useful, because it is clear that Russia and its supporters are constantly trying to spin this as something in which the west or Ukraine are somehow at fault and held responsible for this and that.

    Russia attacked a peaceful country that was not going to invade Russia. That country's allies were not going to invade Russia. Everything that goes on in this conflict is solely initiated by Russia and the will of the Russian political elite.

  19. #6439
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    That is rather too qualified a condition, to take some tangent of the conflict, as the entire conflict (= Ukraine didn't invade Russia, so Ukraine has nothing to do with Russia invading Ukraine). This type of tangent-to-function view leads to all sorts of fun stuff, to mention a flamboyant one: Japan didn't nuke US, so if Japan nukes US in the future it's solely due to US in the past.

    => it's always a problem to treat tangents as the entire thing
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
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  20. #6440
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Well I think Putin apologism comes from different sides, some of which very dubious indeed (basically the far right). However, I do think I somewhat recognize Ludicus' position. It reminds me of the position of Western Europeans to the political left of, say, social democracy: pacifists, socialists and communists among them. Especially those who recall the cold war. It's more anti-american than pro-putin. Its essentially an accusation of hypocrisy. To them, post WWII US does not have the moral high ground by as much as others see it, if at all. I actually kind of agree with that. They may have been blind to soviet repression, but that doesn't mean the rest gets to overlook wrongs committed by the US in its crusade against communism. I just think it's daft to argue that because of US' transgressions, Putin should be allowed his too, as if calling in some sort of perverse debt. IMHO US/NATO have made the right calls so far, but I'm not under any illusions this is due to some moral integrity on the part of the US/NATO and offers no guarantee for the future. We will know more if/when the time comes to weigh peace for Ukraine against further weakening Russia.
    Last edited by Muizer; November 22, 2022 at 05:58 PM.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

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