Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

[conon394]

The west shouldnt have provoked the revolution of 2014

Ahh I see Ukrainians have no agency obviously the US And NATO and EU made them want to have ties with the west and not with Russia.

[PointOfViewGun]

The west shouldnt have provoked the revolution of 2014 and shouldnt have promised to Kiev to enter EU and NATO. Since these events happened now the best sollution is a negotiated settlement in which a portion of Ukraine secedes and the rest enters EU and NATO. The alternative is endless war

They are not cause of the Russian meddling in Ukraine but the contrary is true. Ukraine turned to the west as they toppled their Russian puppet. This conflict didn't start with western meddling but by the failure of Russian meddling and the subsequent butthurt response from Russia.

[Alastor]

We've gone over the numbers in this thread before and the conclusion was that even when taking the Russian propaganda numbers about Ukrainian losses at face value, Ukraine has at least 2:1 numerical advantage. They've proven to be able to recapture lost land, outmaneuver Russians and utilize superior technology provided by NATO countries to good effect.

Don't forget NATO intelligence (primarily US/UK), I'd say that's one of the most crucial force multiplication factors present.

[conon394]

Don't forget NATO intelligence (primarily US/UK), I'd say that's one of the most crucial force multiplication factors present.

Also one might add seemingly Russia comparable capabilities are sub par or have atrophied.

[Ludicus]

The midterm elections on 8 November will have a direct impact on US support for Ukraine if the Republicans win. If Trump's isolationist wing prevails, McCarthy, the Republican minority leader in the Senate, will be elected leader of the House of Representatives, and has already said that he will not give Ukraine a “blank check”. On October 8, Trump said that the U.S. foreign policy priority should be " We must demand the immediate negotiation of a peaceful end to the war in Ukraine or we will end up in World War Three”.

The Republican candidate for U.S. Senate in Ohio, J.D. Vance, said in September that the main burden of the resistance to the Russian invasion must shift to European countries,
“I think we’re at the point where we’ve given enough money in Ukraine, I really do...The Europeans need to step up. And frankly, if the Ukrainians and the Europeans, more importantly, knew that America wasn’t going to foot the bill, they might actually step up. We cannot fund a long-term military conflict that I think ultimately has diminishing returns for our own country " said Vance, the candidate who received Trump's support in the GOP primary election. (Right now, in Ohio, RCP polling average: Vance +0.7)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

These statements coming from a politician of the country that provoked this war are particularly instructive. They can keep denying it, but everyone knows that this war follows decades of warnings that NATO expansion into Eastern Europe could provoke Russia

If the Trumpist wing wins, I foresee the replacement of Stoltenberg at the NATO command, because it will not be possible for him to keep the same warmongering discourse he has had so far.

If this happens, for us Europeans, it will be very instructive to watch the tragicomedy that will take place in the European countries, and in particular the reactions of Ursula, Borrell, the Baltic countries and Poland.

[conon394]

I would not jump the gun there Ludicus. Recall this not no Parliament. And the Jokers saying/rambling on about aid to Ukraine had a Trifecta and were going to repeal and replace Obama care right? Oh and build a wall?

These statements coming from a politician of the country that provoked this war are particularly instructive. They can keep denying it, but everyone knows that this war follows decades of warnings that NATO expansion into Eastern Europe could provoke Russia

Ahh yes just gotta roll Tankie - only the US has agency. Russia has absoultly clean hands and never say interfered in all of so called near about even if the near about did want it. Because reasons I guess whatever Catherine the Great and Stalin did is something all the world must respect else we hurt Russian feelings.

[Papay]

They are not cause of the Russian meddling in Ukraine but the contrary is true. Ukraine turned to the west as they toppled their Russian puppet. This conflict didn't start with western meddling but by the failure of Russian meddling and the subsequent butthurt response from Russia.

If some people in Ukraine have a problem with the portion of people who elect pro-Russian "puppets" then perhaps they should let them go

[conon394]

If some people in Ukraine have a problem with the portion of people who elect pro-Russian "puppets" then perhaps they should let them go

Be nice to see in a free and fair election first.

[Papay]

Be nice to see in a free and fair election first.

2010 election was considered free

[Sar1n]

2010 election was considered free

Nope, just nobody bothered with it. In 2010, Ukraine was globally considered to be another corrupt satellite of Russia, like Belarus, and source of cheap workforce for eastern part of EU. Everyone knew it's about as free as elections in Soviet Union, but because Russia was considered important trade partner, nobody gave a damn.

That changed when Ukrainians increasingly showed will to break out of that arrangement, culminating in 2014 Maidan.

[Papay]

Nope, just nobody bothered with it. In 2010, Ukraine was globally considered to be another corrupt satellite of Russia, like Belarus, and source of cheap workforce for eastern part of EU. Everyone knew it's about as free as elections in Soviet Union, but because Russia was considered important trade partner, nobody gave a damn.

That changed when Ukrainians increasingly showed will to break out of that arrangement, culminating in 2014 Maidan.

And now they are not corrupt...Yeah right. Oh wait i forgot. Western money are incorruptable

[Coughdrop addict]

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukra...update-1753411

A Russian politician has said Moscow should focus on cutting off Ukraine's electricity supply, so its people have no access to heat, running water and refrigerated food.
Andrey Gurulyov, a deputy in the State Duma, made the comments during a discussion show on Russian state TV. Konstantin Dolgov, a senator in Russia's upper house and former commissioner for human rights, told the panel he "totally supports" Gurulyov's stance.

Cue the apologists "Good! Serves them right for not wanting to be raped and enslaved!" and "Russia is the real victim here."

[Heathen Hammer]

Isn't that what Americans did when they invaded Iraq? Key infrastructure is legitimate military target as per America's recent forever wars.

[PointOfViewGun]

If some people in Ukraine have a problem with the portion of people who elect pro-Russian "puppets" then perhaps they should let them go

They didn't have a problem with the people though. They had a problem with the puppet Ukrainian government that chose to disregard what the Ukrainian parliament voted in favor of as over 90% of the parliament members voted in favor of European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement. That's how this all started.

[AqD]

Meanwhile, Russia is begging for kamikaze drones and outdated ballistic missiles in Iran and artillery ammo in North Korea. Their winter uniforms have "mysteriously disappeared" and recruits are getting rusty, 50 year old AKMs while having to buy their own medkits and vests.

Putin doesn't need soldiers to destroy Ukranian infrastructure. He can safely fire everything far away from the border, and he'll keep doing it until Ukraine surrenders.

We need to supply Ukraine long range missiles and MAD now. The only way to stop their senseless destruction is an eye for an eye - destroy plants, farms and cities within Russia. Let him watch Moscow turning into rubbles.

[conon394]

@Papay: If you are Russian and worried about the future welfare of your country, you absolutely should be. Putin has managed to isolate Russia in an unprecedented way. It is virtually impossible for Russia to recover from this mess. Any step further into the direction that Putin has outlined leads Russia more into total desaster. Russia is going to be - at this point - economically crippled forever. Aside from the burden of Soviet nuclear armament, Russia is done for now and has nothing to say anymore. It's a terrible, terrible tragedy.

Indeed for example WaPo - first former space power

https://webcache.googleusercontent.c...=firefox-b-1-d

[Ludicus]

only the US has agency. Russia has absoultly clean hands

Certainly not, but I endorse Pope's comments, " We need to move away from the usual Little Red Riding Hood pattern, in that Little Red Riding Hood was good and the wolf was the bad one"
All you don't care about, and you don't care because "Russia is the aggressor". Benjamin Abelow’s analysis of the Ukraine war. Article published on Medium in May 2022.
--
Dugina was not an “innocent victim” murdered by terrorists, according to Kuleba. Neither the Pope nor the US agreed with this statement, but that didn't stop Kuleba from scolding the Pope,
NYTimes

Ukrainian officials were dismayed when Francis referred to Daria Dugina… as an “innocent” victim.
Afterward, Ukraine’s foreign minister summoned the Vatican’s ambassador to Ukraine to express “profound disappointment” in Francis’ words.

As we already know, U.S. Believes Ukrainians Were Behind an Assassination in Russia

They had admonished Ukraine over it

[Cyclops]

Indeed for example WaPo - first former space power

https://webcache.googleusercontent.c...=firefox-b-1-d

So Musk has harvested profits from this war on multiple fronts, and is still whining for more public subsdies? I guess capitalism works best when the gubment subsidises the billionaires.

Tragic for the former Soviet and Russian space tradition. World leaders through collaboration the opposite of Nationalist/religious nonsense, thrown away by Putins bananphilia.

[Heathen Hammer]

I guess capitalism works best when the gubment subsidises the billionaires.

That's just how neoliberalism works - government steals taxes money from you and uses it to subsidize billionaires, and if you spot a conflict of interest, that means you are a domestic extremist spreading dangerous disinformation.

[conon394]

oops not done