Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

[reavertm]

On the other hand, if that nuclear bluff turns out not to be too much of a bluff, we don't have to worry about next time. In other words the risk is unacceptably high.

Ah. Good old Pascal's wager "what if you are wrong". I'm sure you can bring better apologetic arguments, Alastor.

Also:
"I will repeat yet again that Russia started talking about nukes after it got cornered."

Cornered you say. Right, I forgot, Moscow being under siege for six months now.
/facepalm

[PointOfViewGun]

Freely? Let them fight if they want. I champion for us, in the west, not pushing Russia to the brink of using nukes though yes. In fact, not waging economical war to our detriment on Russia either.

Yes, freely, since apparently not pushing Russia to the brink of using nukes means not helping Ukraine to fight them back.

No provocation my ass. This was not an unprovoked invasion and as long as this fantasy keeps getting disseminated we are getting nowhere. People need to understand that the invasion being provoked doesn't mean the invasion was justified. It does mean there is room for negotiation though. An unprovoked invasion means there is no room for negotiation, only escalation. And that's extremely dangerous.

Unprovoked means unprovoked. We don't need to turn backwards to make it work for your narrative. Russia had no reason to invade Ukraine. If they did they wouldn't cook up the excuse of Ukrainian Nazis while deploying the Wagner group.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

No provocation my ass. This was not an unprovoked invasion and as long as this fantasy keeps getting disseminated we are getting nowhere. People need to understand that the invasion being provoked doesn't mean the invasion was justified. It does mean there is room for negotiation though. An unprovoked invasion means there is no room for negotiation, only escalation. And that's extremely dangerous.

This invasion was unprovoked. Ukraine’s existence is not a provocation.

[Alastor]

Keep repeating the unprovoked fable folks. Eventually it might become true. That's how propaganda works.

[Septentrionalis]

But it hasn't always been on the table, it is now that Russia has been cornered.

Here is a helpful illustration of Ukraine and the US unjustly keeping Russia cornered.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Putin's personal obsession and commitment are the only things keeping Russia cornered in this conflict. Once he gets that long-overdue bullet into his head, the Russians can just walk out of Ukraine unhindered.

You have to wonder what the reaction from the Putin apologists would be if the United States threatened to nuke Russia if they didn't leave Ukraine. Somehow I doubt they'd say it's Russia's fault for not giving in.

My thoughts exactly. Russia and its backers have always had that immoral sense of entitlement, that things are right when done by Russia to others but wrong when done by others to Russia. Ukrainians are supposedly terrorists for damaging a bridge after Russians have been leveling entire cities, hospitals and schools alike, for months.

[PointOfViewGun]

Keep repeating the unprovoked fable folks. Eventually it might become true. That's how propaganda works.

Russia invaded Ukraine first in 2014, not in 2022. Using NATO involvement in Ukraine while ignoring what triggered it is not a good argument for the claim that Russia was provoked. It was Russia that provoked Ukraine to look to west to maintain its independence. Basically, in the end, you are left with the stupid argument that Ukraine somehow provoked Russia with getting rid of the Russian puppet in its government. What a joke of a hill you're trying to die on.

[conon394]

But to humour you a bit, what I meant was accepting Stalin's alliance offer before he signed a pact with Hitler. The UK and France ignored his probes for an alliance against Germany. Stalin promptly allied with Germany instead. That gave Hitler the assurances he needed to invade Poland. That did, not the Munich agreement, that had nothing to do with Poland

And I sure the troops he was going to station in Poland over their objections were completely going to leave when asked?

Keep repeating the unprovoked fable folks. Eventually it might become true. That's how propaganda works

Really Chomsky a man who should have known when it was time to retire in grandpa rant Tankie mode.... not impressed.

[Alastor]

Here is a helpful illustration of Ukraine and the US unjustly keeping Russia cornered.

Putin's personal obsession and commitment are the only things keeping Russia cornered in this conflict. Once he gets that long-overdue bullet into his head, the Russians can just walk out of Ukraine unhindered.

You want it spelled out for you don't you? Russia being cornered means its leadership being cornered. And Putin currently is cornered. It's funny how people keep talking about Putin's soldiers, Putin's war, Putin's invasion, Putin's whatever... but when it comes to making a rational inference somehow they get all obtuse. Putin and his regime is under pressure. That's what it means Russia is cornered in this case. Capiche?

Please, spare us. You have made it abundantly clear who your master is.

Oh really? Do tell.

And I sure the troops he was going to station in Poland over their objections were completely going to leave when asked?

You mean the troops that never left? Even after the second world war? Yeah ok. So? They wouldn't leave, they never left and you didn't see anyone invading the USSR to give Poland back its lands. They compromised. Because Poland wasn't important enough to continue what was already the most destructive war ever.

Really Chomsky a man who should have known when it was time to retire in grandpa rant Tankie mode.... not impressed.

Perhaps if he wasn't that old he wouldn't dare go against the establishment. Now what does he have to lose. Either way, whatever his faults as a leftie and I can think of a few, he is quite right here.

[Septentrionalis]

Keep repeating the unprovoked fable folks. Eventually it might become true. That's how propaganda works.

So you found an old communist with a grudge against his country to testify that the western integration was a provocation. And if not in Chomsky's opinion at least in your opinion grave enough a provocation that makes destroying entire cities morally acceptable.

If Ukraine had chosen Russia, I don't think we would see American cannons firing at Ukrainian cities.

[Alastor]

If Ukraine had chosen Russia, I don't think we would see American cannons firing at Ukrainian cities.

No, we'd just see a democratic coup and democratic silencing of the opposition and democratic burning of pro-Russian elements like it happened in Odessa and so on. The Maidan rings a bell? Biden, Nuland, the US secret services, none of them involved. The Nuland-Pyatt recordings? Fabrication. America certainly wears a velvet glove over its iron fist. Until they don't of course.

To you Ukraine is a free country, as long as it does America's bidding. The Iraq invasion was mentioned by the "old communist", that state didn't do America's bidding and was democratically invaded, but who remembers such inconvenient facts.

As long as you insist in this one-sided approach to world politics. You will never understand a thing.

Oh and BTW, I'm still waiting for you to tell me who my "master" is.

[Septentrionalis]

You want it spelled out for you don't you? Russia being cornered means its leadership being cornered. And Putin currently is cornered. It's funny how people keep talking about Putin's soldiers, Putin's war, Putin's invasion, Putin's whatever... but when it comes to making a rational inference somehow they get all obtuse. Putin and his regime is under pressure. That's what it means Russia is cornered in this case. Capiche?

Thank you. It actually did help to spell it out to me. Putin is indeed cornered in that sense as you describe, but it was completely unthinkable to me that someone would actually sympathize with him or think that his predicament is not his own fault.

[Alastor]

Thank you. It actually did help to spell it out to me. Putin is indeed cornered in that sense as you describe, but it was completely unthinkable to me that someone would actually sympathize with him or think that his predicament is not his own fault.

You don't need sympathy in order to understand that the risk of nuclear escalation now that Putin is cornered is real. You just need a functioning brain.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

You want it spelled out for you don't you? Russia being cornered means its leadership being cornered. And Putin currently is cornered. It's funny how people keep talking about Putin's soldiers, Putin's war, Putin's invasion, Putin's whatever... but when it comes to making a rational inference somehow they get all obtuse. Putin and his regime is under pressure. That's what it means Russia is cornered in this case. Capiche?

Russia's not cornered. No one forced Putin to invade Ukraine unprovoked. No one is forcing him to stay in Ukraine. He can leave whenever he wants.

[Septentrionalis]

You don't need sympathy in order to understand that the risk of nuclear escalation now that Putin is cornered is real. You just need a functioning brain.

Correct. However, from that does not follow to me that we should now revoke our support for Ukraine and let that madman take over and emerge out the situation victorious at the time of his weakness. And make ourselves look powerless while we wait for the next aggression and nuclear blackmail. And here we come full circle.

[Alastor]

Russia's not cornered. No one forced Putin to invade Ukraine unprovoked. No one is forcing him to stay in Ukraine. He can leave whenever he wants.

Yes and santa claus is real. I have already responded to these fantasies before. Read back. Or keep repeating ad nauseam if you prefer. As I said earlier, repetition makes sth true, that's how propaganda works. Our western media sure know how to play that game.

Correct. However, from that does not follow to me that we should now revoke our support for Ukraine and let that madman take over and emerge out the situation victorious at the time of his weakness. And make ourselves look powerless while we wait for the next aggression and nuclear blackmail. And here we come full circle.

Do a cost-risk analysis. Is Ukraine worth the end of your world? If it is fine. Go to Ukraine and kill yourself, the outcome would be the same. It's not worth the end of my world and I don't see what gives you the right to decide for me.

[Septentrionalis]

Do a cost-risk analysis. Is Ukraine worth the end of your world? If it is fine. Go to Ukraine and kill yourself, the outcome would be the same.

I do not equate a nuclear holocaust with myself getting killed. I embrace my mortality fully and put quite little value on my own life.

It's not worth the end of my world and I don't see what gives you the right to decide for me.

You must petition Putin, not me, to make the right decision so that your comfortable existence is not inconvenienced or ended prematurely. He is the only one brandishing a nuclear weapon on this planet now.

[Alastor]

I do not equate a nuclear holocaust with myself getting killed. I embrace my mortality fully and put quite little value on my own life.

Well put some value in the lives of others then and spare them this.

You must petition Putin, not me, to make the right decision so that your comfortable existence is not inconvenienced or ended prematurely. He is the only one brandishing a nuclear weapon on this planet now.

Sure and we are the ones pushing him closer and closer to pressing that button, by ignoring his warnings and laughing at his red lines. But if you think petitioning Putin about anything is going to work, go ahead and do that. Me, I'd rather petition our western leaders, maybe they are slightly more democratic than Putin. Who knows.

Oh and one more thing. I did notice your cheap dig about my "comfortable" existence. Comfortable or not, it's mine to do with as I please, not yours to bargain away. Keep that in mind.

[sumskilz]

Russia had no reason to invade Ukraine.

They had a reason:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And considering that map was made back in 2014, it was a predictable reason. Note how closely the "potential occupation areas" conform to the areas that the Russian military has concentrated on taking after their initial attempt to decapitate the Ukrainian government failed.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

To bring up again the comparison I made, there was a rot in the finger, you argued against removing it. It then spread to the hand, you argued against removing it. It has now spread to the whole arm, you argue against removing it because you're worried there's a chance that the bleeding could kill you. The rot however will spread, and will kill without any doubt, if not removed. Do you know the poem "first they came..."? I'm guessing not.

Yes and santa claus is real. I have already responded to these fantasies before. Read back. Or keep repeating ad nauseam if you prefer. As I said earlier, repetition makes sth true, that's how propaganda works. Our western media sure know how to play that game.

I'm repeating it because it's blatantly, objectively, and beyond any doubt, true. Look at the BS justification Russia officially named for its war of aggression: "de-nazification". Are you ing kidding me?

Do a cost-risk analysis. Is Ukraine worth the end of your world? If it is fine. Go to Ukraine and kill yourself, the outcome would be the same. It's not worth the end of my world and I don't see what gives you the right to decide for me.

At which point will it be worth your inconvenience? When it's your family headed to the filtration camps? Would you not rather stop them before it gets to that point?

[PointOfViewGun]

They had a reason:
And considering that map was made back in 2014, it was a predictable reason. Note how closely the "potential occupation areas" conform to the areas that the Russian military has concentrated on taking after their initial attempt to decapitate the Ukrainian government failed.

These are not valid reasons.