Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

[Mithradates]

So far, so good.
But Bolsonaro is far from being a good diplomat. I doubt Zelensky will approve to be compared with the Argentinian dictator Galtieri, but I must clarify that given Bolsonaro's love for military dictators, in his eyes the comparison is flattering.

Bolsonaro stated that he would propose to Zelenski that he must do what Argentina did in the case of the Falklands in 1982- accept defeat and surrender.
"I will give my opinion on what I believe—the solution for the case. How did Argentina's war with the United Kingdom end in 1982? That's the way it goes. We regret it, the truth is that these are things that hurt, but we must understand it".

Well, history teaches that Galtieri later admitted he thought Britain would not put up a fight. And he almost got his predictions right: Reagan advised Thatcher to not attack Argentina, but the Iron Lady did not give in. That's how she earned that title.

-

Anyway, Lukashenko imposes ban on price increases in Belarus

From 6 October any increase in prices is prohibited. Forbidden! From today. Not from tomorrow, but from today. So that they do not inflate prices over the day. Therefore, from today, price increases are prohibited. God forbid someone decides to raise prices or do some indexation retroactively.

Master economist

I bet he would too advise Zelensky to accept defeat and surrender hahaha

[conon394]

Missed this:

"Bolsonaro stated that he would propose to Zelenski that he must do what Argentina did in the case of the Falklands in 1982- accept defeat and surrender."

Umm last I checked Ukraine is not loosing or defeated. Glad Bolsonaro was not advising the allies in WW2

[Pontifex Maximus]

God forbid there should be any pursuit for peace, right? Europe must freeze and starve for Ukraine and if necessary the whole west must tolerate nuclear war for Ukraine, because "It Is The Right Thing To Do" tm.

[Coughdrop addict]

God forbid there should be any pursuit for peace, right? Europe must freeze and starve for Ukraine and if necessary the whole west must tolerate nuclear war for Ukraine, because "It Is The Right Thing To Do" tm.

So if China threatens to use nukes, we'd better surrender immediately right? Or is it only Russia we must bow before?

The ball is in Putin's court. He could end this war today by withdrawing back to Russia and giving up his dreams of empire.

And finally the idea that Europe will freeze and starve is nonsense. It is Russia, in fact, that desperately needs Europe. As they're discovering, you can't eat oil and gas.

[Alastor]

The ball is in Putin's court. He could end this war today by withdrawing back to Russia and giving up his dreams of empire.

No, he couldn't. It is hypocritical to say he could. The narrative currently is that Putin is a mad, power-hungry dictator and Russia needs to be bled and weakened, if not dismantled, in order to stop being a threat. The narrative is this war in Ukraine was entirely unprovoked and there is no negotiating with Putler, the Hitler of the 21st century. Any negotiation is tantamount to appeasement and treason, nuclear war be damned.

Putin deciding to withdraw back to Russia changes none of that. We have poised ourselves, in the west I mean, for confrontation with Russia and only confrontation. This isn't about Ukraine anymore, if it ever was. This is an attempt to take Russia out of the chessboard. Biden openly called for regime change. Voices left and right have mused dissolving Russia. The sanctions aren't going anywhere, war or no war.

So no, Putin can't just opt to withdraw. With the active efforts of NATO Russia has been thoroughly cornered. And doing that to a state with enough nukes to blow up the planet is rather ill-advised. Biden himself just said that nuclear armageddon hasn't been this close since the Cuban missile crisis. Not of course that this would make him stop and think that maybe, just maybe, he should change his approach to limit this enormous threat.

[Coughdrop addict]

No, he couldn't. It is hypocritical to say he could. The narrative currently is that Putin is a mad, power-hungry dictator and Russia needs to be bled and weakened, if not dismantled, in order to stop being a threat. The narrative is this war in Ukraine was entirely unprovoked and there is no negotiating with Putler, the Hitler of the 21st century. Any negotiation is tantamount to appeasement and treason, nuclear war be damned.

Putin deciding to withdraw back to Russia changes none of that. We have poised ourselves, in the west I mean, for confrontation with Russia and only confrontation. This isn't about Ukraine anymore, if it ever was. This is an attempt to take Russia out of the chessboard. Biden openly called for regime change. Voices left and right have mused dissolving Russia. The sanctions aren't going anywhere, war or no war.

So no, Putin can't just opt to withdraw. With the active efforts of NATO Russia has been thoroughly cornered. And doing that to a state with enough nukes to blow up the planet is rather ill-advised. Biden himself just said that nuclear armageddon hasn't been this close since the Cuban missile crisis. Not of course that this would make him stop and think that maybe, just maybe, he should change his approach to limit this enormous threat.

I see we're back to the DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender) technique.

No one forced Putin to invade Ukraine. Putin chose to do so because Ukraine looked to be moving closer to the west and he, like his apologists, assumes he has a divine right to rule all former Soviet satellites, if not the entire world. Once again, Putin did this. Putin. Not the big bad west. They didn't force him to invade Ukraine against his will. You of course know this.

Saying this isn't about Ukraine or it never was or it's all an evil plot by the west to punish Russia with sanctions is nonsense. You really believe that the western world was just itching to sever economic ties with Russia? That they hated making money? That is absurd. Putin's wallowing in victimhood might impress you, but the rest of the world sees that the only person at fault for Russia's woes and infamous reputation is him.

Biden deserves praise for standing up to Putin's threats, because like all cowardly bullies Putin is in fact more likely to pick a fight or escalate a situation if he thinks he can't lose and his intended victim won't resist. Just like he assumed would happen in Ukraine.

[Alastor]

I see we're back to the DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender) technique.

No one forced Putin to invade Ukraine. Putin chose to do so because Ukraine looked to be moving closer to the west and he, like his apologists, assumes he has a divine right to rule all former Soviet satellites, if not the entire world. Once again, Putin did this. Putin. Not the big bad west. They didn't force him to invade Ukraine against his will. You of course know this.

Saying this isn't about Ukraine or it never was or it's all an evil plot by the west to punish Russia with sanctions is nonsense. You really believe that the western world was just itching to sever economic ties with Russia? That they hated making money? That is absurd. Putin's wallowing in victimhood might impress you, but the rest of the world sees that the only person at fault for Russia's woes and infamous reputation is him.

Biden deserves praise for standing up to Putin's threats, because like all cowardly bullies Putin is in fact more likely to pick a fight or escalate a situation if he thinks he can't lose and his intended victim won't resist. Just like he assumed would happen in Ukraine.

I see we are back to the rape analogies now. Great, very convincing.

Putin made the decision to invade yes. But there is a big difference between a provoked and an unprovoked decision. A provoked decision, which is exactly what this was, means there were steps that could be taken by the other side (NATO/Ukraine) to avoid this situation, efforts at conciliation, respecting the Minsk agreements, providing guarantees Ukraine won't join NATO etc. An unprovoked decision, which is what the media is trying to convince us this was, means there is no fault on our end and nothing that could be done to stop this. It also means that Putin is an irrational actor that needs to be removed. It paves the path for another escalation cycle with all the potentially catastrophic consequences this entails.

Rather the west underestimated the blowback those sanctions would have. Once committed they had to double down of course. So yes, I really do believe that this conflict was engineered to cut down Russia, or at least to overextend it. Not by the western world at large, the EU is a hapless victim here, I'm pointing the finger squarely at the US. And I'm not just saying that. There are reports from think tanks that have been suggesting such courses of action for years. Coincidence?

Uhuh. Biden is yet again engaging in America's favourite regime change shenanigans. Only this time he's risking the whole world to do it. If Biden was so confident why would he, himself, be warning that the threat of nuclear war is the highest in 60 years. As if he is some bystander with no say in any of that. So yeah, tell me again how much praise Biden deserves when you are running for your life chased by radscorpions and deathclaws.

[PointOfViewGun]

Ukraine's push towards NATO was not the point that provoked Russia into invading Ukraine. It was the opposite. Russian actions concerning Crimea and Donbas was the point that provoked Ukraine to get pushed into NATO. The only point that can be used to argue that Russia was provoked to invade Ukraine is the fact that Russia lost its puppet leading Ukraine. That is an argument as stupid as it gets. The current situation is only Putin's fault.

[Alastor]

Ukraine's push towards NATO was not the point that provoked Russia into invading Ukraine. It was the opposite. Russian actions concerning Crimea and Donbas was the point that provoked Ukraine to get pushed into NATO. The only point that can be used to argue that Russia was provoked to invade Ukraine is the fact that Russia lost its puppet leading Ukraine. That is an argument as stupid as it gets. The current situation is only Putin's fault.

Only Putin's fault, that's right. Not just the current situation, every situation. So let's altogether invade Russia and cut him down.

My god, that you have the nerve to call any argument stupid when delivering such myopic takes shows such a monumental lack of self-awareness I just have no words. Every time, I say sth in this thread I'm just shocked by the narrow-sightedness displayed by the "Putler crowd" again and again.

Understand, this is not about Ukraine, this is about Russia, it always was. You really think there would be such a mobilisation if it was a US ally launching an invasion? You really think McDonald's would flee their market? It is about Russia and the determination of certain circles to knock them out of the game. If Turkey tomorrow invades Greece, like they keep threatening to do, you think there will be such a response? No. It will be fine. That says it all.

[PointOfViewGun]

Only Putin's fault, that's right. Not just the current situation, every situation. So let's altogether invade Russia and cut him down.

My god, that you have the nerve to call any argument stupid when delivering such myopic takes shows such a monumental lack of self-awareness I just have no words. Every time, I say sth in this thread I'm just shocked by the narrow-sightedness displayed by the "Putler crowd" again and again.

Understand, this is not about Ukraine, this is about Russia, it always was. You really think there would be such a mobilisation if it was a US ally launching an invasion? You really think McDonald's would flee their market? It is about Russia and the determination of certain circles to knock them out of the game. If Turkey tomorrow invades Greece, like they keep threatening to do, you think there will be such a response? No. It will be fine. That says it all.

Nice straw man you got there. The triggered nature of it and its inability to address anything I said shows how meritless your position is.

[conon394]

If Turkey tomorrow invades Greece, like they keep threatening to do, you think there will be such a response? No. It will be fine. That says it all.

I don't think so. Turkey of today is not in the same situation as Turkey of say the time of the Cyprus invasion. Consider the rift over Turkey's S-400 purchase, the US lifting the arms embargo to Cyprus, The Fact Greece as new or updated individual defensive pacts with both the US and France and critically the USSR is long gone. Overall I don't you can Turkey is in the same position it was back in the day certainly not do something so brazen as what the hardliners want.

[Alastor]

I don't think so. Turkey of today is not in the same situation as Turkey of say the time of the Cyprus invasion. Consider the rift over Turkey's S-400 purchase, the US lifting the arms embargo to Cyprus, The Fact Greece as new or updated individual defensive pacts with both the US and France and critically the USSR is long gone. Overall I don't you can Turkey is in the same position it was back in the day certainly not do something so brazen as what the hardliners want.

The point wasn't that Turkey will invade Greece. Though they certainly do threaten they will. The point was that if they did the response would not be in any way equivalent. There wouldn't be such heavy sanctions, there wouldn't be a mass exodus of businesses, there wouldn't be an economic war orchestrated by the US. That was the point. Like you mentioned they did invade Cyprus on a similar pretext and in living memory, the island is still divided. What happened? None of that. This all happened in Russia's case though. This shows the goal here is to hurt Russia, not protect Ukraine. This conflict was just a convenient way to do that. Protecting freedom and democracy is only done when "the conditions are right" as evidenced by the multitude of examples of invasions gone unanswered and there was already talks about economic war against Russia in think tank circles long before the invasion. No shortage of them.

To be clear, that our response is hypocritical doesn't mean Putin is right. It's just that we (west/Ukraine) are not right either. I do think we need to realize that we are being hypocritical here. That the invasion was not unprovoked. That our goals are much more self-serving than to protect the Ukrainian bastion of democracy against the evil, fascist Orcs of Siberia. That Putin is not a madman and war with Russia is not the only path ahead. Peace should be the preferred option. That much more so when nukes are about to start flying.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

God forbid there should be any pursuit for peace, right? Europe must freeze and starve for Ukraine and if necessary the whole west must tolerate nuclear war for Ukraine, because "It Is The Right Thing To Do" tm.

Yes, yes it is. Just as the allies didn't sue for peace when the nazis invaded Poland, so too must we not sue for peace when the fascists invade Ukraine.

[AqD]

God forbid there should be any pursuit for peace, right? Europe must freeze and starve for Ukraine and if necessary the whole west must tolerate nuclear war for Ukraine, because "It Is The Right Thing To Do" tm.

Ha, do you speak for Putin now, on the eve of our final victory? Are you aware they have nothing left for fighting, aside from millions of sobbing conscripts?

We can have peace after Russia surrenders its nuclear weapons. Yep, the same kind of deal Romans offered Carthaginians.

I wouldn't worry about food and energy price after Russia is turned into a banana republic serving China or the west, whichever side they prefer.

[Coughdrop addict]

My "strawman" eats your so-called arguments for breakfast. Leaving you unable to do anything but mewl fat words you can barely comprehend. Like meritless. Ha! You wouldn't know merit if it hit you straight in the head on the back of 10000ton freight train. Meritless he says. What a joke.

Ukraine is going to retake Crimea. That has to be depressing...almost like watching your brave and noble soldiers pee their pants and run away at the sight of Ukrainian soldiers.

[Alastor]

Ukraine is going to retake Crimea. That has to be depressing...almost like watching your brave and noble soldiers run away and pee their pants at the sight of Ukrainian soldiers.

My brave and noble soldiers? You think I'm Putin now? Who are you? Zelensky? What is depressing is that we are headed straight towards a major disaster and you think this is still some silly epeen contest.

[AqD]

What is depressing is that we are headed straight towards a major disaster and you think this is still some silly epeen contest.

What disaster? Their imperialism for over two centuries is a disaster. Their enslaving of hundreds of millions is a disaster. Their leader who started his career by bombing his own people is a disaster. Their murder of our innocent civilians and public celebration on media is a disaster. Their continued belief that they should own all their neighbors is a disaster.

The very existence of the Russian state is a disaster to mankind. Now we're about to pull all its teeth and lock in a cage forever.

If the nuclear threat is true, we should end it right now, when it's weakest. Not giving them any chance to strike in future.

[Alastor]

The very existence of the Russian state is a disaster to mankind. Now we're about to pull all its teeth and lock in a cage forever.

If the nuclear threat is true, we should end it right now, when it's weakest. Not giving them any chance to strike in future.

End it now consequences be damned? Are you out of your mind? Don't you realize you are talking nuclear armageddon? No, I don't think you do. If you did you wouldn't be this cavalier about it. You speak of the future, if we strike at Russia full-on like you suggest, there is no future. It's called MAD for a reason. That's the problem with the "Putler crowd" all they see is how righteous their cause supposedly is, to hell with everything else. You advocate for escalation, for war, for the deaths of millions and you somehow think you still retain a moral advantage over the evil dictator in the Kremlin. Lunacy. At least if you were Ukrainian, directly affected by the conflict, maybe it would make some sense. It would still be utterly selfish to want everyone to suffer because you did, but it would be human. To be a westerner and advocate for such actions though, that's entirely out there. And we have many people that do exactly that, unfortunately.

[Vanoi]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pentagon-...141150716.html

Putin can sabre rattle all he wants but there is no indication that Putin is planning to use nuclear weapons in Ukraine.

[Sar1n]

Giving in and pushing Ukraine into a compromise is the second worst thing NATO can do, after launching a nuclear attack against Russia.

Right now, it's still very unlikely that Putin will order nuclear strike against Ukraine, and even then it might not happen since everyone in the nuclear chain of command has to agree. Putin has nothing to gain and everything to lose. NATO would most likely respond by directly intervening using their air forces, destroying Russian air force, air defense and then proceeding with bombing campaign, accelerating Russian defeat.

Giving in would codify nuclear extortion as viable offensive tactic. As a result, some nuclear powers would attempt to use it, and those without nukes would seek nukes of their own or at least some kind of alliance-this has already begun as Poland expressed interest in stationing US nukes on their territory. The result would be massive nuclear proliferation and huge risk of nuclear war erupting somewhere.