Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

[Lord Thesaurian]

Nice whataboutism.

Plus, that’s not even a Nazi flag. It stands for “scout sniper.” The group involved didn’t even suspect the aesthetic would upset people, and the incident turned out to be another liberal “nazis, nazis everywhere” meltdown. I don’t suppose Utkin is a US marine scout sniper.

[conon394]

@Ludicus

And we hear the call from the Baltic countries for all Russian citizens to be banned from entering Europe. 'Visiting Europe is a privilege, not a human right”, they say.

So you are opposed to non violent means of attempting to deter Russian behavior?

It is deeply ironic that the EU is paying 89% more for Russian fuels, even though it is getting 15% less of those products

Maybe Europe should have considered diversify its energy sources some time ago?

We need a new Renaissance, to revive conviviality, commoning, republican freedom and equality. So far, in Britain and elsewhere, that transformative vision is being held back by excessive pragmatism by old-left parties. However, just as Nature abhors a vacuum, so does the human condition. We need a progressive revolt, one that crosses national boundaries and that is ecologically redistributive. One can see the green shoots but must just hope there is time for them to grow

So your source here is admiring he has no ideal what could have been done. You know there is a reason Gorbachev RIP failed. There really was no way to reform the USSR economically in the middle of collapse of empire. The out comes might have been better But I am not sure how. Its fair to argue that western approaches massively underestimated that what could work in Poland or the Czech Republic were very much less likely to work in the Ukraine or Russia etc.

Or for a nice long comparison you can read here:

https://library.oapen.org/handle/20.500.12657/47508

file:///D:/Users/sysops/Downloads/9781000201017.pdf

we see Sweden and Finland handing over Kurdish political refugees to Erdogan as the price for NATO membership

Would seem to be the fault of Putin alone.

We see Joe Biden crossing an ocean and a continent to bow at the feet of the Saudi prince who cut a journalist to ribbons and who spreads Islamic terror at home and funds it out of doors.

Not much for it. I suppose you are right really the better option would have been to go old school. Invade. Execute the entire royal family. Expel all Saudi nationals and hand over the holy sites to the King of Jordan. Do a little damage control by handing the Saudi national wealth fund over to the Palestinian authority, and then manage oil prices back down to 50-60 dollars a barrel (don't want to under cut US production). But I guess that is out fashion now, great power status just lacks the perks it used to pre 1900.

This does not seem like a formula for bringing the war to a swift end.

That option is absolutely in Putin's hands not see how you can blame the US unless you capitulating to Putin ends well.

Meanwhile 'Germany's military stocks are not enough to send more weapons to Ukraine.

So err every President of the US since Clinton was right Germany was not spending enough to have a functioning military?

[Heathen Hammer]

Plus, that’s not even a Nazi flag. It stands for “scout sniper.” The group involved didn’t even suspect the aesthetic would upset people, and the incident turned out to be another liberal “nazis, nazis everywhere” meltdown. I don’t suppose Utkin is a US marine scout sniper.

I guess it stands for "spetsnaz sniper" then. :^)

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Not whataboutism. Pretty much every military in the world has some sort of German-esque aestehtic going, because that stuff look neat.
In Russia or Europe its not even as bad, you should see South American militaries lol.

It's literally whataboutism. We're talking about wagner here, you asked me what constitutes a neo-nazi. After I answer you, instead of replying with anything relevant to wagner, the neo-nazi PMC, attempt shift the focus elsewhere.
And newsflash: the US isn't invading a country while claiming to be de-nazifying it. Russia is. And to do so, Russia employs actual Nazis. This is the absolute state of the Russuan narrative.

[Heathen Hammer]

It's literally whataboutism. We're talking about wagner here, you asked me what constitutes a neo-nazi. After I answer you, instead of replying with anything relevant to wagner, the neo-nazi PMC, attempt shift the focus elsewhere.
And newsflash: the US isn't invading a country while claiming to be de-nazifying it. Russia is. And to do so, Russia employs actual Nazis. This is the absolute state of the Russuan narrative.

Its not whataboutism when you point out that it is a common trend in similar milieu's around the world, from Russia and Ukraine to NATO countries and South America.
As I said numerous time before, accusation "nazism" on both sides are silly.
US was literally invading Afghanistan when this pic was taken, btw.

[conon394]

As I said numerous time before, accusation "nazism" on both sides are silly.

Well perhaps except for the bit where Putin and his mouth pieces are using as a rational for his invasion.

[Heathen Hammer]

Well perhaps except for the bit where Putin and his mouth pieces are using as a rational for his invasion.

Just as silly as accusing Russian side of it by Western side.

[Sar1n]

Not whataboutism. Pretty much every military in the world has some sort of German-esque aestehtic going, because that stuff look neat.
In Russia or Europe its not even as bad, you should see South American militaries lol.

Violent jobs attract people with violent ideologies.

But since you bring it up, it's fair to highlight a crucial difference. In civilized world, every time such incident happens, perpetrators are punished. In Russia, however, they're Putin's wardogs instead.

[Heathen Hammer]

Violent jobs attract people with violent ideologies.

Violence is universal reality of life and people with violent ideologies are the reason why people with non-violent ideologies get to exist more or less peacefully, which applies to every society around the world.

But since you bring it up, it's fair to highlight a crucial difference. In civilized world, every time such incident happens, perpetrators are punished. In Russia, however, they're Putin's wardogs instead.

Every time such incident gets media attention is what you wanted to say, and only because incidents like that are superficial, thus not really having any moral highground over Kremlin's more meritocratic approach.

[Mithradates]

Its not whataboutism when you point out that it is a common trend in similar milieu's around the world, from Russia and Ukraine to NATO countries and South America.
As I said numerous time before, accusation "nazism" on both sides are silly.
US was literally invading Afghanistan when this pic was taken, btw.

You are comparing ordinary soldiers with a flag to Utkin, who has several Nazi tattoos and who is not just an ordinary soldier, he is the founder/leader of the Wagner Group.
Wagner has an openly neo-Nazi Rusich unit whose logo is a Slavic swastika so no, this is not a common trend with modern militaries.

[Heathen Hammer]

You are comparing ordinary soldiers with a flag to Utkin, who has several Nazi tattoos and who is not just an ordinary soldier, he is the founder/leader of the Wagner Group.
Wagner has an openly neo-Nazi Rusich unit whose logo is a Slavic swastika so no, this is not a common trend with modern militaries.

I posted an example of ordinary soldiers using SS flag during NATO occupation of Afghanistan.
Again, no such thing as liberal in a trench, that's just how this works. The current conflict is basically nationalists on both sides, just like Croat-Serb wars or French-German wars of yesteryear.

[conon394]

Just as silly as accusing Russian side of it by Western side.

Err what last I checked Poland or the US were not using claims of Nazis in Russia to invade Russia?

[Heathen Hammer]

Um, what are you even talking about? I'm referring to how oligarchies on both sides call each other "nazis".

[Septentrionalis]

The official narrative, for example, highlighted among the various ideas that the plane was already carrying dead bodies and that the tragedy was staged to show the Russians and pro-Russian separatists in a bad light.

As much as I am used to outrageous lies coming from that regime lately, I am still in disbelief that they could have seriously suggested that.

If you have an inkling of how a western democratic state and modern aviation infrastructure operate, you cannot seriously believe that the Dutch would appropriate a Malaysian plane, raid the local morgues for hundreds of bodies (dozens of which are Malaysians and also other nationalities), pack them onto a plane and get someone to fly it to eastern Ukraine to die in a suicidal explosion. And have other western powers corroborate the story by telling that Russian ground-to-air missiles had been brought to the area recently according to their satellite intelligence. And having no one complain, such as the dead people's relatives. Or the morgue workers. Or the Malaysians that lost their plane. Or the airport workers who never witnessed a boarding time for a flight like that.

In some way, it is flattering. But the truth of the matter is that such a thing cannot be orchestrated. And it surely cannot be orchestrated just to make some separatists "look bad".

[Heathen Hammer]

The official narrative, for example, highlighted among the various ideas that the plane was already carrying dead bodies

I'm sure that one can link to any Russian state media saying that, right?

[grouchy13]

What is more troublesome is a potential coordinated military offensive, Russia in Europe, and China in the Pacific. Maybe throw in North Korea for good measure. European NATO forces would be out-of-position and unprepared, and China would simply outnumber and outclass any potential foe in the Pacific region.

China will be the long term benefactor out of this conflict, like it has been (If indirectly) from every major conflict in the 21st Century. By this I mean it has been allowed to strengthen its military and grow its influence and economy whilst its peer competitors diminished either in global influence, economic or military terms to varying degree's.

Whilst China is closing in on the US economically, its my assessment that it still has a long way to go before it could or would want to go toe to toe with the US Military. I've yet to see any evidence that the PLAN possesses the capabilities to prevent the USN in concert with its regional Pacific allies carrying the day in any Naval conflict.....

Hypersonic Missile systems might have been touted as the great equaliser by the Russians and Chinese over the last 2-4 years to answer to the USN, but if the performance of RF S-400 SAM Systems (The other branch of the area denial tree as seen in Syria) in Ukraine is anything to go by, there is still huge question marks on whether these are real world capabilities or Pie in the Sky weapon systems that are designed to give Western Military planners bad dreams.

It is also my assessment that in its current state of the Russian Army could easily be contained by NATO and is not in the position to expand this conflict outside of Ukraine, say into the Baltics. That's not to say the Ukrainians possess the strength to throw them out of the 20% of the country they have already taken, the current offensive I.V.O Kherson will have massive implications into how each side see's its the viability of continuing the conflict after Winter sets in.

The next few weeks will therefore be key......

[Laser101]

It seems like the Ukrainians have enjoyed some successes in pushing towards Kherson. I'm still not sure why the Russians have bothered trying to hold it though; it would presumably be far easier to deflect Ukrainian counter-offensives from the other side of the river.

[Coughdrop addict]

As much as I am used to outrageous lies coming from that regime lately, I am still in disbelief that they could have seriously suggested that.

If you have an inkling of how a western democratic state and modern aviation infrastructure operate, you cannot seriously believe that the Dutch would appropriate a Malaysian plane, raid the local morgues for hundreds of bodies (dozens of which are Malaysians and also other nationalities), pack them onto a plane and get someone to fly it to eastern Ukraine to die in a suicidal explosion. And have other western powers corroborate the story by telling that Russian ground-to-air missiles had been brought to the area recently according to their satellite intelligence. And having no one complain, such as the dead people's relatives. Or the morgue workers. Or the Malaysians that lost their plane. Or the airport workers who never witnessed a boarding time for a flight like that.

In some way, it is flattering. But the truth of the matter is that such a thing cannot be orchestrated. And it surely cannot be orchestrated just to make some separatists "look bad".

The point of Russian propaganda isn't really to convince anyone of anything, though of course it's great for them if someone falls for it. The real point is simply to create uncertainty about what is real and sow distrust in legitimate sources of information. In other words they don't care if you don't believe them as long as you don't believe western government and media either. Keeping democratic states off-balance in such a way is one way Russia is trying to make up for it's poorly trained and poorly equipped, outdated military.

[Mithradates]

As much as I am used to outrageous lies coming from that regime lately, I am still in disbelief that they could have seriously suggested that.

If you have an inkling of how a western democratic state and modern aviation infrastructure operate, you cannot seriously believe that the Dutch would appropriate a Malaysian plane, raid the local morgues for hundreds of bodies (dozens of which are Malaysians and also other nationalities), pack them onto a plane and get someone to fly it to eastern Ukraine to die in a suicidal explosion. And have other western powers corroborate the story by telling that Russian ground-to-air missiles had been brought to the area recently according to their satellite intelligence. And having no one complain, such as the dead people's relatives. Or the morgue workers. Or the Malaysians that lost their plane. Or the airport workers who never witnessed a boarding time for a flight like that.

In some way, it is flattering. But the truth of the matter is that such a thing cannot be orchestrated. And it surely cannot be orchestrated just to make some separatists "look bad".

It flew on autopilot from Amsterdam, where it had been pre-loaded with rotting corpses.
This version was put forward by Igor Girkin, the Minister of Defence of the Donetsk People's Republic (he is a former Russian intelligence officer and most likely the one who is responsible for the tragedy) it aired on all state-controlled media outlets, many other completely contradictory – and largely obviously fictional – explanations were pushed simultaneously.

The point of Russian propaganda isn't really to convince anyone of anything, though of course it's great for them if someone falls for it. The real point is simply to create uncertainty about what is real and sow distrust in legitimate sources of information. In other words they don't care if you don't believe them as long as you don't believe western government and media either. Keeping democratic states off-balance in such a way is one way Russia is trying to make up for it's poorly trained and poorly equipped, outdated military.

Totally agree +1

[nhytgbvfeco2]

It seems like the Ukrainians have enjoyed some successes in pushing towards Kherson. I'm still not sure why the Russians have bothered trying to hold it though; it would presumably be far easier to deflect Ukrainian counter-offensives from the other side of the river.

Don't worry, I'm sure they'll soon retreat as a "gesture of good faith" (aka they got their butts kicked)