Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

[conon394]

I am also referring to the EU's outright lie of referring to Ukraine as a "vibrant democracy" A few years ago, in 2014 some EU parliamentary groups were protesting, outraged, against the financial aid provided by the European Union to the most corrupt country in Europe, after Russia.

Yet one can't bud wonder what if Ukraine had pushed toward Western Europe and joined the EU like Poland - instead of staying in Russia orbit? In any Mexico rate worse than Ukraine guess Canada and US best kick them out NAFTA.

Because it matters.But, in a particular way, I'm referring to this, https://www.publico.pt/2022/07/27/op...auders-2015041

A bit incoherent and detached from any examination of the situation it the Donbas or Crimea kinda massively one sided. But maybe reading blocks of google translate makes any particular conclusion hard to derive.

Again what negotiation do think should happen you have not said and don't point to Minsk, since Russian and its puppets more less violated constantly.


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Not really sure why you chucked the Bland corporation in the post its kinda a real low energy boiler plate read. The vocab is hideous at times...

"The Kremlin’s preoccupation with its faltering campaign in Ukraine might be
consuming senior leaders’ limited bandwidth—bandwidth...”

Bandwidth? What are they it witty or clever or appeal to IT geeks or what?

In any case its an odd report it suggests all the things Russia might do but it never really actually asks if Russia has any capabilities it supposedly might use. mean I grant Russia clearly has the tactical nuclear option and its doctrine does call for various quick use and stop type planning but aside from that ... This does seem to written maybe sometime between the Georgia war and the quick seizure of Crimea.


"such as cyber attacks on critical infrastructure, assassinations of military or
political figures, or sabotage or covert action against targets that support Ukraine."

Given that is Special Military operation is floundering one would expect if Russia had these tools laying about it might you know be using them to further it war that not winning.

[Ludicus]

You know Conon, I'm just expressing my opinion. What's the solution for Ukraine? A buffer zone? The Austrian model- or perhaps the Ukrainian model? and autonomy for the territories in the Donbas controlled by separatists.

More than a negotiation between Ukraine and Russia, I'm convinced that if the U.S. wanted, they could solve the conflict in 48 hours. The more time that passes, the more difficult it becomes to reach a compromise that will bring stability to Europe. As a European I want stability, I'm not interested in the perpetuation of a conflict between the US and Russia in Europe, because that's what it's all about. Earlier this year, Foreign Minister Kuleba told CNN "We will not be in the position of the country that picks up the phone, listens to the instructions of the great power and follows it."
It's not entirely true. The persuasiveness of the US is immense, but they don't want to, they' re more interested in turning Ukraine into a new Afghanistan. Just read Rand.org, previous post. Which is a strategic mistake for those fighting for world supremacy.

[conon394]

You know Conon, I'm just expressing my opinion. What's the solution for Ukraine? A buffer zone? The Austrian model- or perhaps the Ukrainian model? and autonomy for the territories in the Donbas controlled by separatists.

You must realize non of those are tenable. Russian actions in the south show that they are moving in the territory they occupy to put in place the conditions to run a fake vote and integrate the area into Russia they are not simply holding it as leverage for some deal. I take Putin at his pre invasion word and Lavrov and Medvedev at their current ones. The seem to have aimed at a Belarus style puppet not some Finland or Austria and failing that breaking what they cannot take and leaving a rump state behind certainly more than the Donbas (which seeing as they recognized as independent umm sort precludes autonomy).

I love how you ignore any potential for agency by the Ukrainians themselves. You basic problem is how a deal will essentially legitimatize ignoring the sovereignty of of Ukraine and rewarding unprovoked aggression as means to effect boarder changes to recognized boards - one Russia agreed to guarantee lets not forget. It also again convince Iran of the need to arm itself with nuclear weapons as fast as it can. Which I don't know what you feeling on that is but seem likely to push Israel and maybe its new gulf state buds to military action.

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But I am not alone in my criticism of this romanticization of war, it's tasteless

Than again

[nhytgbvfeco2]

You know Conon, I'm just expressing my opinion. What's the solution for Ukraine? A buffer zone? The Austrian model- or perhaps the Ukrainian model? and autonomy for the territories in the Donbas controlled by separatists.

More than a negotiation between Ukraine and Russia, I'm convinced that if the U.S. wanted, they could solve the conflict in 48 hours. The more time that passes, the more difficult it becomes to reach a compromise that will bring stability to Europe. As a European I want stability, I'm not interested in the perpetuation of a conflict between the US and Russia in Europe, because that's what it's all about. Earlier this year, Foreign Minister Kuleba told CNN "We will not be in the position of the country that picks up the phone, listens to the instructions of the great power and follows it."
It's not entirely true. The persuasiveness of the US is immense, but they don't want to, they' re more interested in turning Ukraine into a new Afghanistan. Just read Rand.org, previous post. Which is a strategic mistake for those fighting for world supremacy.

Ludi, buddy, Lavrov already announced that Russia intends to push for a regime change in Ukraine. What negotiations?

[conon394]

Ludi, buddy, Lavrov already announced that Russia intends to push for a regime change in Ukraine. What negotiations?

I still think their (the Russians) actions on the ground from Kherson to Mariupol make it clear they are intent on annexation. Words and declarations can be waved away facts on the ground not so much.

[saamohod]

@Ludicus

A humble reminder to you, Ukrainians have agency, too. In case you didn't notice.

[Coughdrop addict]

@Ludicus

A humble reminder to you, Ukrainians have agency, too. In case you didn't notice.

Your mistake is not believing without question what Russia says.

See, the only reason anyone would not want to be a part of the modern, democratic, peaceful, prosperous utopia that is Russia is that they are being controlled by the evil United States and the evil EU and evil NATO. Putin saw the plight of Ukrainians about to be invaded by the evil west and in his infinite compassion sent in his heroic peacekeeping freedom fighters to save them from such a horrible fate. But the Ukrainians have been tricked by the evil United States and it's evil puppet Zelensky to fight their Russian saviors, forcing these noble heroes, with tears in their eyes, to defend themselves against Ukrainian aggression.

See how easy and simple everything is if you just have blind faith in everything Putin says and treat his every word as divine wisdom?

What's particularly galling to me is that the same people lambasting the Ukrainians for not laying out the red carpet for the invaders are the same people who during the Iraq war proclaimed that every man, woman, and child in the country had a duty to fight to the death against the invaders.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

My favourite part of Russian(+Belarusian) propaganda is the insistence that Poland will, for sure, invade western Ukraine. Any minute now.

[saamohod]

My favourite part of Russian(+Belarusian) propaganda is the insistence that Poland will, for sure, invade western Ukraine. Any minute now.

Is does sound utterly nonsensical to you and me, but people in Belarus and Russia consider it legit.

[conon394]

My favourite part of Russian(+Belarusian) propaganda is the insistence that Poland will, for sure, invade western Ukraine. Any minute now.

While I don't doubt even with the donation of most of its T72s and some (or a lot? of its PT91s) Poland could roll over Ukraine the ideal is pretty far fetched seeing as just donating its old Migs seems like some kind of provocation NATO won't entertain.

[swabian]

Ukraine must not fall under any circumstances. If it falls, it would be added to the resources of a superbly corrupt state that would continue to threaten the rest of Europe and it would gradually swallow all other former sowjet satellites and grow as a consequence. This must be abundantly clear by now. Russia has to fail, and miserably so! Nobody can afford a Russian victory! Whatever it takes and however far - the sanctions have to be continued: Russia must not win. Period. There is nothing more important right now than the utter humiliation of Vladimir Putin and his loyals.

[EmperorBatman999]

After the Dark Ages began to lighten, Europeans rediscovered the pleasure of bath, but not in the same way that we do today. Every single day Isabel I of Spain's Inquisition supervised the concept of "cleanliness of blood", but as far as body hygiene is concerned, she bathed twice a month, or even less. In Colonial America bathing for personal hygiene was considered “impure” and the practice regulated. In Boston, it was illegal to take more than two baths a month. In Colorado you needed a doctor’s prescription, and in Philadelphia and Wyoming, anyone who took more than one bath per month could be jailed, according to my sources. So, once again, what’s the problem?
Anyway, you don't have to shower every day, dermatologists say. Three times a week is enough.

This idea literally stinks. You have to remember that various diseases proliferated prior to the development of modern hygiene standards in the early 1900s, which only faded thanks to regular bathing and reliably indoor plumbing.

Never did I think I’d see people and political movements seriously considering the idea of returning humanity back to base levels of depravity, going back to conditions which our even most recent ancestors desperately yearned to escape from. We’ve come too far to quit bathing regularly.

[Coughdrop addict]

This idea literally stinks. You have to remember that various diseases proliferated prior to the development of modern hygiene standards in the early 1900s, which only faded thanks to regular bathing and reliably indoor plumbing.

Never did I think I’d see people and political movements seriously considering the idea of returning humanity back to base levels of depravity, going back to conditions which our even most recent ancestors desperately yearned to escape from. We’ve come too far to quit bathing regularly.

I've heard similar arguments on both sides of the aisle. Since outside of the showpiece cities of Moscow and St. Petersberg most Russians live in 19th century conditions (or worse) with indoor plumbing far out of reach, it makes sense Russian apologists would want us to be more like Russia by living in filth as they do.

Say it with me now: Toilets are Nazism! Bathing is globalism! Russia stronk!

[swabian]

I've heard similar arguments on both sides of the aisle. Since outside of the showpiece cities of Moscow and St. Petersberg most Russians live in 19th century conditions (or worse) with indoor plumbing far out of reach, it makes sense Russian apologists would want us to be more like Russia by living in filth as they do.

Say it with me now: Toilets are Nazism! Bathing is globalism! Russia stronk!

Very funny. Oh the holly jolly Christmas ahead...

[Ludicus]

You must realize non of those are tenable... rewarding unprovoked aggression

I beg to disagree.
It’s well worth a reading.
A lucid analysis of the problems confronting the EU Some hard thoughts about post Ukraine - Graham E. Fuller
Graham E. Fuller is an American author and political analyst who specializes in Islamic extremism. Formerly vice-chair of the National Intelligence Council, he also served as station chief in Kabul for the CIA. After a career in the United States State Department and CIA lasting 27 years, he joined Rand Corporation as senior political scientist specializing in the Middle East. As of 2006, he was affiliated with the Simon Fraser University in Vancouver, Canada as an adjunct professor of history. Fuller is the author of a number of books, including The Future of Political Islam.

The war in Ukraine has dragged on long enough now to reveal certain clear trajectories. First, two fundamental realities:

1. Putin is to be condemned for launching this war– as is virtually any leader who launches any war. Putin can be termed a war criminal–in good company with George W. Bush who has killed vastly greater numbers than Putin.

2) secondary condemnation belongs to the US (NATO) in deliberately provoking a war with Russia by implacably pushing its hostile military organization, despite Moscow’s repeated notifications about crossing red lines, right up to the gates of Russia. This war did not have to be if Ukranian neutrality, á la Finland and Austria, had been accepted. Instead, Washington has called for clear Russian defeat.

As the war grinds to a close, where will things go?

Read the full article.

--
Edit,

You have to remember that various diseases proliferated prior to the development of modern hygiene standards in the early 1900s, which only faded thanks to regular bathing and reliably indoor plumbing.

-That is not what I was talking about and everything I said is absolutely correct.
even more important: You didn't realize it was an ironic tirade, from the beginning until the end.

Reread again, did you miss the irony? in particular referring to to the fact that in Hannover, hot water will no longer be available in the shower in swimming pools, sports halls, and gyms.

“In my opinion, this measure, to be truly democratic, should be extended to professional athletes in all disciplines.
It’s not a problem. Let’s go back in time: Greeks original form of bathing consisted of nothing more than a quick plunge into icy water.
Another option: stop showering after exercising. "To those that are well, and especially to the young", Saint Benedict in the sixth century commanded, “bathing shall seldom be permitted.” The Goths attacked the bathhouses, but Christians attacked the idea of bathing…"
Historically correct.
Also, I could not resist drawing attention, ironically, to the renewed Polish Catholic fundamentalism,

"in the fourth century, the Mother Superior of a convent warned that a clean body and clean dress signified an unclean soul”. “No, it’s not a joke, my dear Catholic Poland. (two-year prison sentence for those who “make jokes” about the Catholic Church The Polish Minister of Justice calls for prison)”

And I also wrote, "After the Dark Ages began to lighten, Europeans rediscovered the pleasure of bath, but not in the same way that we do today., etc, etc.."
As any medievalist knows.
And I ended up concluding “So, once again, what’s the problem?Anyway, you don't have to shower every day, dermatologists say. Three times a week is enough”
Which is completely true.

[Lord Thesaurian]

The last time Fuller was associated with the CIA he said the US should sell weapons to the Ayatollah to counter Soviet influence. Where do you even find these people.

[Ludicus]

Fuller is right in everything he says. In my opinion.

[Sar1n]

Fuller is right in everything he says. In my opinion.

Fuller is full of sh...

Just look at that crap about NATO. The eastern expansion was driven not by US, but by those countries desiring protection against Russian attempts to bring them into its sphere of influence by any means possible-exactly what is happening to Ukraine. Seeking membership in NATO is a choice of the candidate country, not something dictated by US or other NATO members, unlike the old Warsaw pact for example. Therefore, Russia has no business dictating any country whether it can seek NATO membership, and doing so constitutes an inexcusable violation of such country's national sovereignty.

[conon394]

Fuller is right in everything he says. In my opinion.

Err I would e pretty much misses on all swings but...

Let that this:

"2) secondary condemnation belongs to the US (NATO) in deliberately provoking a war with Russia by implacably pushing its hostile military organization, despite Moscow’s repeated notifications about crossing red lines, right up to the gates of Russia. This war did not have to be if Ukranian neutrality, á la Finland and Austria, had been accepted. Instead Washington has called for clear Russian defeat."

I find this statement pretty much divorced fro reality. But I would ask that you paraphrase that so I understand how you see and find it correct. If you don't have the time I wait a bit.

[Heathen Hammer]

Ukraine must not fall under any circumstances. If it falls, it would be added to the resources of a superbly corrupt state that would continue to threaten the rest of Europe and it would gradually swallow all other former sowjet satellites and grow as a consequence. This must be abundantly clear by now. Russia has to fail, and miserably so! Nobody can afford a Russian victory! Whatever it takes and however far - the sanctions have to be continued: Russia must not win. Period. There is nothing more important right now than the utter humiliation of Vladimir Putin and his loyals.

Its funny, because despite symbolic aid, it is pretty clear that both vegetable-in-chief in US and the EU oligarchy are already bending the knee to Kremlin, at least judging by where energy deals are going. I wonder what Russians have on our boy blunder here in Canada, that got him to waggle his tail at Putin with such vigor, but I assume its probably some kind of money laundering scheme that Western "leaders" got so involved in Ukraine to begin with.