View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    103 69.59%
  • I support Russia fully.

    15 10.14%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.70%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.43%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.73%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.41%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #4761

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/07/22...uble-business/

    Five months into the Russian invasion of Ukraine, there remains a startling lack of understanding by many Western policymakers and commentators of the economic dimensions of President Vladimir Putin’s invasion and what it has meant for Russia’s economic positioning both domestically and globally.
    Far from being ineffective or disappointing, as many have argued, international sanctions and voluntary business retreats have exerted a devastating effect over Russia’s economy. The deteriorating economy has served as a powerful if underappreciated complement to the deteriorating political landscape facing Putin.

    That these misunderstandings persist is not entirely surprising given the lack of available economic data. In fact, many of the excessively sanguine Russian economic analyses, forecasts, and projections that have proliferated in recent months share a crucial methodological flaw: These analyses draw most, if not all, of their underlying evidence from periodic economic releases by the Russian government itself.
    A good read to counter the Russian propaganda the west is saturated with. Russia is not now nor has it ever been a great power. It is an economic backwater, cultural wasteland, and open sewer of corruption that anyone who has ambitions beyond feeding a heroin addiction can't get out of fast enough. Instead of throwing ourselves in the dirt and worshiping Putin as certain people seem to think, we should accelerate the switch to green energy, leading to total economic collapse for Russia.

  2. #4762
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    15:11 Lambrecht: Germany has delivered multiple rocket launchers to Ukraine

    Germany has also delivered the promised Mars II multiple rocket launchers to Ukraine. In addition, three more self-propelled howitzers were handed over, as Defense Minister Christine Lambrecht (SPD) explained. Yesterday, her Ukrainian counterpart reported that the first three Gepard anti-aircraft tanks had arrived from Germany. Several tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition were also handed over. Lambrecht spoke of five Gepard anti-aircraft gun tanks that had been delivered. Overall, the Ukraine will get 30 Gepard systems from the industry with around 60,000 rounds of ammunition, mainly from the Bundeswehr. The three multiple rocket launchers Mars II and then a total of ten self-propelled howitzers 2000 also came from Bundeswehr stocks.


    Krieg gegen die Ukraine: ++ Mehrfachraketenwerfer geliefert ++ | tagesschau.de

    in German
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  3. #4763

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Its funny, because NATO regimes kinda helped clear up political landscape for Putin by sabotaging liberal opposition there. And now we have NATO countries essentially pay reparations to Russia for funding Ukrainian separatism by paying higher rates for energy resources.
    All thanks to anti-nuclear green lunatics that made Western Europe reliant on Russia for generations to come.

  4. #4764
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    15:11 Lambrecht: Germany has delivered multiple rocket launchers to Ukraine

    Germany has also delivered the promised Mars II multiple rocket launchers to Ukraine. In addition, three more self-propelled howitzers were handed over, as Defense Minister Christine Lambrecht (SPD) explained. Yesterday, her Ukrainian counterpart reported that the first three Gepard anti-aircraft tanks had arrived from Germany. Several tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition were also handed over. Lambrecht spoke of five Gepard anti-aircraft gun tanks that had been delivered. Overall, the Ukraine will get 30 Gepard systems from the industry with around 60,000 rounds of ammunition, mainly from the Bundeswehr. The three multiple rocket launchers Mars II and then a total of ten self-propelled howitzers 2000 also came from Bundeswehr stocks.


    Krieg gegen die Ukraine: ++ Mehrfachraketenwerfer geliefert ++ | tagesschau.de

    in German
    Good to see getting their donations sorted out. 3 MARS are not inconsequential Germany only has what 20 or so.

    ------


    because NATO regimes kinda helped clear up political landscape for Putin by sabotaging liberal opposition there
    Surprise me NATO did this how?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  5. #4765

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    NATO regimes sanctioning pro-Western oligarchs was quite hilarious. I think Biden is the best American president Russians ever had, maybe after Obama. Though I suspect Biden's handlers real goal is to weaken EU.
    Speaking of which, it looks like EU political upper crust is bending the knee to Putin as well.

  6. #4766
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    NATO regimes sanctioning pro-Western oligarchs was quite hilarious
    That statement is beyond vague.

    EU political upper crust is bending the knee to Putin as well.
    Dude been in big with Rosneft and Gazprom for a while now. You know sample size of 1 with n-1 = 0. His actions are hardly the basis for making a statement about the EU elite. He not exactly fair haired boy in Berlin right now having been striped of all his ex office holder privileges.
    Last edited by conon394; July 26, 2022 at 02:42 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  7. #4767
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    The EU plan to limit natural gas usage as it is drawn up is an ill-conceived plan.
    All's well that ends well. EU agrees plan to ration gas use
    Energy ministers from the 27 member states, except Hungary, backed a voluntary 15% reduction in gas usage over the winter...the EU was forced to water down proposal…possible exclusions for countries little connected to the European gas network.
    A fact that was recognized by the European Commission.
    -----
    Orban and the best of two worlds,
    ...Hungary, which has already secured an opt-out from the EU’s embargo on Russian oil, was alone in voicing its opposition.

    Longstanding adviser to Viktor Orbán resigns over 'pure Nazi speech.

    A longstanding adviser to Viktor Orbán has resigned in protest at “a pure Nazi speech” the Hungarian prime minister gave that was “worthy of Goebbels”.
    In the speech, Orbán said mixing between Europeans was acceptable, but Europeans mixing with non-Europeans created “mixed race” people.
    Next week Orbán is due to travel to Dallas, where he will open CPAC Texas, a gathering of US conservatives. Orbán counts the former US president Donald Trump among his many admirers on the American right.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  8. #4768

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    His actions are hardly the basis for making a statement about the EU elite.
    How about current German FM?
    It seems that German globalist establishment prostrating itself before Putin is a tell-tale sign that "resistance to aggression" is just about empty posturing and some shady military contracts.

  9. #4769
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    How about current German FM?
    It seems that German globalist establishment prostrating itself before Putin is a tell-tale sign that "resistance to aggression" is just about empty posturing and some shady military contracts.
    Or she is simply making a pragmatic statement that Germany kinda dug itself into a hole and needs to figure out what to do. Does quite sound like kowtowing but hey if floats your boat. Makes the point Merkle was silly in stopping nuclear but letting coal run on another what almost 2 decades.


    You still never answered do Poland or Lithuania or both jointly have the right to liberate the Grodno region from its illegal (by your logic) occupier Belarus
    Last edited by conon394; July 26, 2022 at 04:14 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #4770
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    While HH is fantasizing about kowtows:

    Baerbock in the Czech Republic: Panzer ring exchange with Prague nearing completion

    7/26/2022 1:16 p.m

    A tank ring exchange with the Czech Republic is within reach. A corresponding agreement is in the finalization phase, said Foreign Minister Baerbock in Prague.

    According to Federal Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock (B90/Greens), negotiations between Germany and the Czech Republic on a tank ring exchange to support Ukraine are nearing completion.

    Baerbock: role model for contracts with other countries

    One is "in the finalization phase of the joint contract," said Baerbock after a meeting with her Czech counterpart Jan Lipavsky in Prague. From the point of view of the Foreign Minister, the agreement could serve as a model for agreements with other countries.

    We have to take a close look at how we can transfer this to other countries so that deliveries can also take place quickly.

    Annalena Baerbock, Federal Foreign Minister

    Germany had already reached an agreement in principle with the government in Prague in May to provide the Czech armed forces with 15 German Leopard 2 tanks for the delivery of 20 Soviet-designed T-72 tanks to Ukraine.

    Negotiations about the details are still ongoing. Baerbock said the tanks should be supplied from industrial stocks.


    https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/polit...sland-100.html
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; July 26, 2022 at 04:39 PM.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  11. #4771

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    15:11 Lambrecht: Germany has delivered multiple rocket launchers to Ukraine

    Germany has also delivered the promised Mars II multiple rocket launchers to Ukraine. In addition, three more self-propelled howitzers were handed over, as Defense Minister Christine Lambrecht (SPD) explained. Yesterday, her Ukrainian counterpart reported that the first three Gepard anti-aircraft tanks had arrived from Germany. Several tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition were also handed over. Lambrecht spoke of five Gepard anti-aircraft gun tanks that had been delivered. Overall, the Ukraine will get 30 Gepard systems from the industry with around 60,000 rounds of ammunition, mainly from the Bundeswehr. The three multiple rocket launchers Mars II and then a total of ten self-propelled howitzers 2000 also came from Bundeswehr stocks.


    Krieg gegen die Ukraine: ++ Mehrfachraketenwerfer geliefert ++ | tagesschau.de

    in German
    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    While HH is fantasizing about kowtows:

    Baerbock in the Czech Republic: Panzer ring exchange with Prague nearing completion

    7/26/2022 1:16 p.m

    A tank ring exchange with the Czech Republic is within reach. A corresponding agreement is in the finalization phase, said Foreign Minister Baerbock in Prague.

    According to Federal Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock (B90/Greens), negotiations between Germany and the Czech Republic on a tank ring exchange to support Ukraine are nearing completion.

    Baerbock: role model for contracts with other countries

    One is "in the finalization phase of the joint contract," said Baerbock after a meeting with her Czech counterpart Jan Lipavsky in Prague. From the point of view of the Foreign Minister, the agreement could serve as a model for agreements with other countries.

    We have to take a close look at how we can transfer this to other countries so that deliveries can also take place quickly.

    Annalena Baerbock, Federal Foreign Minister

    Germany had already reached an agreement in principle with the government in Prague in May to provide the Czech armed forces with 15 German Leopard 2 tanks for the delivery of 20 Soviet-designed T-72 tanks to Ukraine.

    Negotiations about the details are still ongoing. Baerbock said the tanks should be supplied from industrial stocks.


    https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/polit...sland-100.html
    After the reunification there was demilitarization of former (West) Germany. The numbers that are accounted are not existing nor will Germany will give their last remnants in Stock to Poland or Czech to make their Army more obsolete then it already became.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; July 27, 2022 at 01:00 AM. Reason: Offensive part removed

  12. #4772

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Leos or not, those tanks should go to Ukraine ASAP. Realistically, since Russia will be exhausted for a long time after this, we won't need tanks for over a decade. Let Ukraine get some worth out of that old scrap.

  13. #4773

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Or she is simply making a pragmatic statement that Germany kinda dug itself into a hole and needs to figure out what to do. Does quite sound like kowtowing but hey if floats your boat. Makes the point Merkle was silly in stopping nuclear but letting coal run on another what almost 2 decades.
    "If we continue as we do our people will kill us" is pragmatic alright. Just like eventually they will make another "pragmatic" statement where they abandon Ukraine entirely, probably rationalizing it it being about "saving climate" or "preventing spread of covid" or something similarly nonsensical, but hey, money talks and walks.
    You still never answered do Poland or Lithuania or both jointly have the right to liberate the Grodno region from its illegal (by your logic) occupier Belarus
    They sure can try. *shrugs*

  14. #4774
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Leos or not, those tanks should go to Ukraine ASAP. Realistically, since Russia will be exhausted for a long time after this, we won't need tanks for over a decade. Let Ukraine get some worth out of that old scrap.
    At some point attrition will break down both sides. Even now the intensity of the fighting is getting less and less as Russia only advances in small spaces while the Ukrainians are trying to gather up enough weapons and equipment to assault Kherson and re-take it. Both sides at this point are definitely running out of munitions to use against each other. I see this war possibly being over at the end of the year. Winter could help bring things to a halt.

  15. #4775
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    "If we continue as we do our people will kill us" is pragmatic alright. Just like eventually they will make another "pragmatic" statement where they abandon Ukraine entirely, probably rationalizing it it being about "saving climate" or "preventing spread of covid" or something similarly nonsensical, but hey, money talks and walks.
    You do seem be able to make an amazing amount of conclusions out of a sample size of one
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  16. #4776

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    At some point attrition will break down both sides. Even now the intensity of the fighting is getting less and less as Russia only advances in small spaces while the Ukrainians are trying to gather up enough weapons and equipment to assault Kherson and re-take it. Both sides at this point are definitely running out of munitions to use against each other. I see this war possibly being over at the end of the year. Winter could help bring things to a halt.
    I see three scenarios as reasonably possible:

    1. Something big breaks on Russian side, political or military, like third Chechen war, and Ukraine will capitalize on that to retake its land this year.
    2. During winter, the "peace in our time" factions in Europe will gain dominant hand and withdraw too much support from Ukraine, forcing it to end the war at status quo.
    3. Ukraine stockpiles enough weapons and ammo during winter to launch an offensive after the end of rasputitsa, which will most likely result in decisive victory.

  17. #4777

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    You do seem be able to make an amazing amount of conclusions out of a sample size of one
    Sounds like cope with the fact that sizable portion of Western establishment would rather ditch the costly support of proxy regime in Kiev, then end up overthrown themselves due to inflation and resource shortage.

  18. #4778
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    WEAPONS FOR KIEV

    Germany to supply 100 more howitzers to Ukraine

    The Federal Ministry of Economics has approved the sale of 100 howitzers to Ukraine in 2000. The order volume of 1.7 billion euros exceeds the previous arms deliveries many times over.

    According to the news magazine "Spiegel", the federal government has approved the sale of 100 self-propelled howitzers 2000 to the Ukraine. According to the information, the Federal Ministry of Economics of Robert Habeck (Greens) is said to have given the manufacturer Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW) a manufacturing license for the most modern type of self-propelled howitzers on June 13th, which can shoot 30 to 40 kilometers depending on the ammunition.

    The manufacturer confirmed the "Spiegel" and also the F.A.Z. the arms deal. KMW submitted an application to the economics department on July 11 and received a production permit two days later. The KMW spokesman put the budget for the 100 self-propelled howitzers at around 1.7 billion euros. This exceeds the volume of previous arms deliveries worth around 600 million euros many times over.

    It is still unclear when the first of the ordered howitzers will be delivered to Ukraine. Some Panzerhaubitzen 2000 have already been delivered to Ukraine. The production of all ordered howitzers should last for several years. It is about the medium to long-term strengthening of the Ukrainian army.

    Deutschland liefert 100 weitere Panzer-Haubitzen 2000 an Ukraine (faz.net)

    Naturally this is a mid- longterm project to bolster up the ukrainian army.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  19. #4779
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Sounds like cope with the fact that sizable portion of Western establishment would rather ditch the costly support of proxy regime in Kiev, then end up overthrown themselves due to inflation and resource shortage.
    Sounds like over blowing the you dissenting views get air time unlike Russia. I don't necessarily disagree that the winter will be/could be a decisive point but so far you have not made much of a case.

    -------------------

    At some point attrition will break down both sides. Even now the intensity of the fighting is getting less and less as Russia only advances in small spaces while the Ukrainians are trying to gather up enough weapons and equipment to assault Kherson and re-take it. Both sides at this point are definitely running out of munitions to use against each other. I see this war possibly being over at the end of the year. Winter could help bring things to a halt.
    I wonder since Poland seems to be aggressively dumping its legacy Pact era stuff if they have more Soviet type ammo they can fork over or how much capacity is there left in Eastern Europe to still produce say 122mm 152mm, or 125 mm shells.
    Last edited by conon394; July 27, 2022 at 02:42 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  20. #4780

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Sounds like over blowing the you dissenting views get air time unlike Russia. I don't necessarily disagree that the winter will be/could be a decisive point but so far you have not made much of a case.
    Sounds like you downplaying Germany, one of the biggest players in EU, prostrating itself to Putin while maintaining only symbolic help to Kiev proxy. Then we have several collapsed governments, including UK and Italy. You so far have failed to provide any counter-evidence, other then very vague gainsaying.

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