View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    103 69.59%
  • I support Russia fully.

    15 10.14%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.70%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.43%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.73%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.41%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #4501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    The rather childish and infantile attempts to paint Russia and Vladimir Putin as inherently evil are counter-productive.
    European members of NATO needs that badly to wake up, reverse Kremlin's influences, start taking responsibilities of their own security and stop relying on US alone, who, merely 4 years ago got complained for complaining other members not contributing, as a matter of statistical fact.

    If more countries join NATO and be responsible, the role of US as the world police would be diminished, no longer in conflict with their domestic politics or have the need or power to deal with endless enemies on this planet alone. A real alliance would be far less likely to make hasty decisions like in Iraq or Af or be ruined by a mad president.

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    We are closer to Rome in culture and genetics than we are to Ancient China. There's an obvious History Lesson from Third Punic War, but if you are ready to risk at least two civil wars at home, please go ahead.
    How about the fact that Russia is nothing like Carthage?

    Carthage was a republic, and their economy was built on trade - which needed peace. Peace with them was entirely possible because of the nature of their society.


    On the other hand, the kingdom of Qin was backwater on the edge of known world, led by a line of militaristic psychopaths.

    Their people were denied commerce and education, forbidden to leave and knew nothing but farm and war. Their government spent every coins on weapons and bribing foreign officials. Their ambassadors made and unmade fake treaties and lied whenever there was a gain to be made. Their officers cared nothing about lives but only how many they kill - behead one enemy, get one rank up and two slaves. And they didn't think twice about flooding entire cities and drowning everyone when siege proved difficult - sound familiar isn't it?

    Over a century this backward kingdom ended up conquering all its neighbors, each of them was far more populous, civilized, technologically advanced and richer, because they didn't realize the threat was existential before it's too late to resist.
    Last edited by z3n; June 19, 2022 at 03:07 PM. Reason: merged double post

  2. #4502
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I see there's a woman who was admonishing the Ukranian soldiers for fighting in civilian houses and areas today. Her son was actually fighting for the Ukranians on the front lines which makes it doubly interesting. It seems like there's now some underlying distaste for Ukraine command / soldiers fighting in civillian areas instead of in the fields. If Ukraine loses the popular support by fighting in the cities constantly, instead of trenches and bunkers, it will end up letting Russia occupy these places without as many insurgency concerns.


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  3. #4503
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    The Monroe Doctrine has been continuously reinforced by USA and its various presidents throughout the years. We even had Trump offer to invade Mexico to "clean it up".




    So we have Kennedy, Reagan, Bush and Trump all using a form of the Monroe Doctrine.

    Given that this all happened within recent memory its pretty interesting that USA won't afford the same doctrine to Russia with Ukraine. But hypocrisy and double standards are par for the course within our society in the west according to some. I'd think that the Ukraine scenario warrants a Monroe Doctrine of their own, if only because that's the only country Russian intervention is guaranteed within along with the threat of nukes.
    Look immoral great Power politics are wrong. I support the US because they are my country's ally but the attacks on Cuba and Venezuela and the support for evil coups in Chile etc are deplorable. Its deplorable when Russia does it too.

    Pragmatically the US does it because it can. It has the power projection. Morally while its terrible its (IMV) better than the European powers it displaced from the western Hemisphere. It earned its hegemonic position by determining the outcome of WWI, and confirming its preeminent strength in WWII.

    The Russian attack fails morally because its at least as bad as Monroe doctrine Power politics, and pragmatically because as a Power it lacks the strength to fulfil its threats.

    Neither morally nor pragmatically does Russia get a free pass here. The US is not obligated to assist Russian crimes because of its own past crimes.

    Russia as a Great Power is declining, this is obvious. Putin can't turn back the clock. Gorbachev and Bush let the USSR down gently, Putin is driving the Russian rump into a wall. The US built the wall, do they have to pull it down so Putin can keep crashing into things?
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  4. #4504
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Look immoral great Power politics are wrong. I support the US because they are my country's ally but the attacks on Cuba and Venezuela and the support for evil coups in Chile etc are deplorable. Its deplorable when Russia does it too.

    Pragmatically the US does it because it can. It has the power projection. Morally while its terrible its (IMV) better than the European powers it displaced from the western Hemisphere. It earned its hegemonic position by determining the outcome of WWI, and confirming its preeminent strength in WWII.

    The Russian attack fails morally because its at least as bad as Monroe doctrine Power politics, and pragmatically because as a Power it lacks the strength to fulfil its threats.

    Neither morally nor pragmatically does Russia get a free pass here. The US is not obligated to assist Russian crimes because of its own past crimes.

    Russia as a Great Power is declining, this is obvious. Putin can't turn back the clock. Gorbachev and Bush let the USSR down gently, Putin is driving the Russian rump into a wall. The US built the wall, do they have to pull it down so Putin can keep crashing into things?
    USA did not confirm any preeminent strength in WWII. The Soviet Union won the war after (failing miserably at the start like Russia normally does) with the mass of tanks and men, and USA and other countries like Canada simply raced eastward fighting Germany's worst troops (although Germany's worst troops were still better than ours), while hoping we could prevent all of Europe from being taken over.

    Russia actually follows many of the same tactics. I strongly recommend giving this book a read if you're interested in their military doctrine, some of which you can see in action leading up to the Severodonetsk push and their constant attempts at encirclement, and a history about WWII. Russia and USA are the inverse, USA normally succeeds spectacularly at the start and then utterly fails at the end. Whereas Russia terribly fails at the start and overwhelmingly wins at the end.

    I expect it will follow a similar script with Ukraine, given that Russia is 100% intent on winning one way or another. The West simply cannot afford to keep fighting Russia right now, we have healthcare and economy concerns; along with the global famine that will likely occur next year. Unfortunately given Bidens inflammatory rhetoric Putin has lots of ammunition he can use to credibly claim to his people that NATO is a real threat. He has the money and we have reports from Ukraine command of him doubling the amount of Russian troops (from 150k to 300k).

    Russia will win at this rate, especially if he moves the troops from 300k to 600k, or 600k to 1.2m. Ukraine simply doesn't have the artillery, vehicles, manpower or airpower to compete. Ukraine is a war Russia will insist on winning, and really I don't see how they can be stopped.
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  5. #4505
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    USA did not confirm any preeminent strength in WWII. The Soviet Union won the war after (failing miserably at the start like Russia normally does) with the mass of tanks and men, and USA and other countries like Canada simply raced eastward fighting Germany's worst troops (although Germany's worst troops were still better than ours), while hoping we could prevent all of Europe from being taken.
    Not sure where this "Lend-Lease acknowledgement refusal syndrome" comes from. Perhaps it has something to do with being reactivated again against fascist state.

  6. #4506
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by reavertm View Post
    Not sure where this "Lend-Lease acknowledgement refusal syndrome" comes from. Perhaps it has something to do with being reactivated again against fascist state.
    Feel free to explain to us how lend lease confirms USAs preeminent strength in WW2.
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  7. #4507
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    I see there's a woman who was admonishing the Ukranian soldiers for fighting in civilian houses and areas today. Her son was actually fighting for the Ukranians on the front lines which makes it doubly interesting. It seems like there's now some underlying distaste for Ukraine command / soldiers fighting in civillian areas instead of in the fields. If Ukraine loses the popular support by fighting in the cities constantly, instead of trenches and bunkers, it will end up letting Russia occupy these places without as many insurgency concerns.
    One woman? Heck, Ukraine might as well surrender and just willingly march into the concentration, err I mean filtration, camps.

  8. #4508
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    One woman? Heck, Ukraine might as well surrender and just willingly march into the concentration, err I mean filtration, camps.
    If you read the article you'd see they say there are conflicting loyalties among others, not just her.
    The competing loyalties hang heavy in the air here, as Valentivna acknowledged amid the wreckage of the deadly blast.
    And

    Those who remain feel the same magnetic pushes and pulls.

    Some stand fiercely with Ukraine and are disgusted by Russia’s false propaganda that Moscow is “liberating” Ukraine from a tyrannical Nazi government.

    Others feel the pull of history and sympathize with Russia. Despite all the misery and death caused by Russian forces in nearly four months of war, including in their own apartment building, they still feel more connected to Russia than to the government in the faraway Ukrainian capital, Kyiv.

    Along with this.

    Before 2014, when pro-Russian forces briefly seized Slovyansk, Voytenko held some pro-Russian views. But she said she changed her mind when she saw how they shelled her town.

    She said some of her few remaining neighbors still hold those views. One mother and daughter who live a few doors down try to talk politics while Voytenko sits outside on her bench. When they mention Russia, she just walks away.

    “They think the Ukrainian army shot this building,” she said. “They just speak nonsense.”
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  9. #4509
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    Feel free to explain to us how lend lease confirms USAs preeminent strength in WW2.
    No, you made it like Soviet Union single handedly defeated Nazi Germany while US was just spectating.
    US delivered to Soviet Union between 1941-1945:

    400,000 jeeps & trucks
    14,000 airplanes
    8,000 tractors
    13,000 tanks
    1.5 million blankets
    15 million pairs of army boots
    107,000 tons of cotton
    2.7 million tons of petrol products
    4.5 million tons of food

    Some articles report alleged change in Russian propaganda: there is no millitary operation in Ukraine, there is just civil war happening in Ukraine and Russia is just backing one of the sides.
    That would mean NATO can get involved on ground and set up no fly zone for instance or spam cruise missiles.
    It would not be war with Russia, after all, Russia has not invaded Ukraine, it's just "supporting one of the sides".
    Last edited by reavertm; June 20, 2022 at 10:45 AM.

  10. #4510
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by reavertm View Post
    No, you made it like Soviet Union single handedly defeated Nazi Germany while US was just spectating.
    US delivered to Soviet Union between 1941-1945:

    400,000 jeeps & trucks
    14,000 airplanes
    8,000 tractors
    13,000 tanks
    1.5 million blankets
    15 million pairs of army boots
    107,000 tons of cotton
    2.7 million tons of petrol products
    4.5 million tons of food

    Some articles report alleged change in Russian propaganda: there is no millitary operation in Ukraine, there is just civil war happening in Ukraine and Russia is just backing one of the sides.
    That would mean NATO can get involved on ground and set up no fly zone for instance or spam cruise missiles.
    It would not be war with Russia, after all, Russia has not invaded Ukraine, it's just "supporting one of the sides".
    No. I disagreed that USA confirmed preeminent power.

    Also when it mattered most Britain not USA supplied them.
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  11. #4511
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Around the same time of the Iraq’s invasion, Robert Kagan published the book "Of Paradise and Power", describing the "soft and feminine Europeans as being from Venus and the tough and masculine Americans from Mars", to make clear difference of attitudes toward national/ international security in the US and Europe.

    According to Kagan, Europeans attach much more importance to diplomatic processes in dealing with global problems, while the United States tends to think that resorting to force is the best way to go. I find this article very enlightening for obvious reasons connected to the present situation. It’s a book review, 2003. Americans Are From Mars, Europeans From Venus - The New York Times
    Iraq is a threat to Washington not only because Americans have a lower risk tolerance than Europeans, long accustomed to their own vulnerability, but also because America's overwhelming power gives it the means to do something about it.

    Europe, on the other hand, lacks the power to eradicate the threat of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, and it is therefore more inclined to rely on engagement and diplomacy rather than force
    .
    A man armed only with a knife may decide that a bear prowling the forest is a tolerable danger, inasmuch as the alternative -- hunting the bear armed only with a knife -- is actually riskier than lying low and hoping the bear never attacks,'' he writes.But give the man a rifle, and the calculation of risk changes.

    Europe believes conflicts are best resolved through peaceful diplomacy and multilateral engagement. Not war, but inspections is what will secure Iraq's disarmament.
    'America's power and its willingness to exercise that power -unilaterally if necessary - constitute a threat to Europe's new sense of mission.
    Go figure!
    Macron's pleas for a negotiated peace were the swan song of an increasingly weak and follow-my-leader Europe, now travestied as Mars (which, if it were back in 2003, would probably invade Iraq alongside the US, UK, Australia and Poland, ready to destroy non-existent weapons of mass destruction - and Kagan would not have written his booklet)

    Here in Europe ordinary citizens are now beginning to realize the price of a war that was not prevented when it could have been and that no one wants to stop. As prices rise, Europeans divided over how Ukraine war

    Every night, the televisions replay images of ruined buildings, schools, hospitals, minefields and deserted cities in Ukraine, and serve up endless interviews with inhabitants who ask only for an end to the war and a chance to resume their lives. However, invoked polls whose origin is mysterious assure us the opposite: that the vast majority of Ukrainians want the war to continue until the total defeat of the Russian invader.

    At first Zelensky showed signs of being willing to negotiate, and there were several attempts at direct understanding between Russians and Ukrainians, but always mediated or brokered by "smaller" powers like Turkey or Israel, without the "big boys" getting involved - which was strange. And when the "big boys" finally got involved, it was to openly bet on the war - which made things clearer to me. The war in Ukraine suited and suits Britain, whose prime minister desperately needs external causes - Ukraine, the violation of the 'Brexit' agreements, the expulsion of black migrants to Rwanda - so that his pathetic performance of office will allow him to still float for a while longer on the surface of his political mediocrity.

    Biden needs Ukraine to make him forget the withdrawal from Afghanistan, to replace Moscow's gas and oil supplies with the Europeans, and to sell them arms, because, unfortunately, all American policy is captive to arms manufacturers: both domestic and foreign policy. Ukraine war: How weapons makers are profiting from the conflict
    Mr Wezeman says countries that traditionally buy a lot of military equipment from Russia may look elsewhere due to how poorly some of the same products have performed in Ukraine.
    And NATO has everything to gain: increased importance after being on the brink of death, new members and new areas of action, more military and political power, recovering the US as the indispensable leader in exchange for subscribing to and following all its strategic interests, even to the seas of China, if necessary, and as Stoltenberg has already warned. NATO finalises preparations to put China in its sights

    Meanwhile, Ursula von der Leyen made a blank slate of Poland's refusal to obey European legislation on judicial independence and individual rights, giving her €36 billion as a reward for being one of the biggest supporters of NATO and Ukraine. Brussels approves Poland's €35-billion recovery plan despite ingering rule of law concerns.

    It’s the same Von der Leyen that went to Kiev to declare that Ukraine, one of Europe's most corrupt states, "already before the war fulfilled the criteria for EU membership" and that the country, where Zelensky has just outlawed eight political parties, "is a solid parliamentary democracy”. Ursula von der Leyen on Twitter: "Ukraine, a solid parliamentary democracy
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  12. #4512

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    No. I disagreed that USA confirmed preeminent power.

    Also when it mattered most Britain not USA supplied them.
    The major allied powers (US, BE and USSR) won the war as a collective. The US ended the war as the dominant power by virtue of its naval hegemony, vastly superior GDP and access to nuclear weapons.



  13. #4513
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    Feel free to explain to us how lend lease confirms USAs preeminent strength in WW2.
    What does this term “preeminent strength” even mean in this context?

    Stalin begged Roosevelt and Churchill repeatedly to open a western theater, and was frustrated when Eisenhower chose Italy over France in 1943. If the Soviets had the war in such hand, then why would they request a new front to be created in France? Wouldn’t that rob the Soviets (as it did) of the chance to replace Fascism and Liberal Democracy as the predominant ideological system across all of Continental Europe?
    Last edited by EmperorBatman999; June 20, 2022 at 04:52 PM.

  14. #4514
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    The major allied powers (US, BE and USSR) won the war as a collective. The US ended the war as the dominant power by virtue of its naval hegemony, vastly superior GDP and access to nuclear weapons.
    USA was quickly challenged within 5 years by China and the USSR during the Korean War. USA and its allies were forced into a stalemate. So I'm not sure how you think they were "the" dominant power.


    @EmperorBatman999

    What does this term “preeminent strength” even mean in this context?

    Stalin begged Roosevelt and Churchill repeatedly to open a western theater, and was frustrated when Eisenhower chose Italy over France in 1943. If the Soviets had the war in such hand, then why would they request a new front to be created in France?

    Maybe read back a few posts to the original one, if you wish to join the discussion? But the definition for preeminent is "surpassing all others".
    Last edited by z3n; June 20, 2022 at 04:53 PM.
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    USA was quickly challenged within 5 years by China and the USSR during the Korean War. USA and its allies were forced into a stalemate. So I'm not sure how you think they were "the" dominant power.
    I've just explained why. Of course, the dominance the US established toward the end WW2 in terms of diplomacy, technology, economics and military power is what enabled it to defeat the first major iteration of Marxist-Leninism. The war in Korea illustrates, not disproves, this view: America was able, without resorting to nuclear weapons, to project its strength onto the doorstep (thousands of miles from mainland USA) of its rivals, stymieing their geopolitical ambitions. To this day, South Korea remains as one of the West's most valuable and advanced partners due to this success.



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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I’m not sure any serious historian of WW2 claims American military power in 1945 was “preeminent.” I think it’s generally recognized that there was parity between the US and Soviet Union, which only got closer once the US lost their nuclear advantage in 1949. The Cold War narrative tends to recognize the Soviets as an equal to the US in aggregate power, but acknowledges that the two sides had different strengths. That was why, even with the nukes and all the troops, tanks, and planes in the European theater, Operation Unthinkable was scotched almost as soon as it was conceptualized by Churchill. The concept of American unipolarity only emerges around 1990.
    Last edited by EmperorBatman999; June 20, 2022 at 05:30 PM.

  17. #4517

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    European members of NATO needs that badly to wake up, reverse Kremlin's influences, start taking responsibilities of their own security and stop relying on US alone, who, merely 4 years ago got complained for complaining other members not contributing, as a matter of statistical fact.

    If more countries join NATO and be responsible, the role of US as the world police would be diminished, no longer in conflict with their domestic politics or have the need or power to deal with endless enemies on this planet alone. A real alliance would be far less likely to make hasty decisions like in Iraq or Af or be ruined by a mad president.



    How about the fact that Russia is nothing like Carthage?

    Carthage was a republic, and their economy was built on trade - which needed peace. Peace with them was entirely possible because of the nature of their society.


    On the other hand, the kingdom of Qin was backwater on the edge of known world, led by a line of militaristic psychopaths.

    Their people were denied commerce and education, forbidden to leave and knew nothing but farm and war. Their government spent every coins on weapons and bribing foreign officials. Their ambassadors made and unmade fake treaties and lied whenever there was a gain to be made. Their officers cared nothing about lives but only how many they kill - behead one enemy, get one rank up and two slaves. And they didn't think twice about flooding entire cities and drowning everyone when siege proved difficult - sound familiar isn't it?

    Over a century this backward kingdom ended up conquering all its neighbors, each of them was far more populous, civilized, technologically advanced and richer, because they didn't realize the threat was existential before it's too late to resist.
    Which is why we must give up on any fantasies of peaceful coexistence with Russia. It will always be an existential threat to the west. We must categorically reject Russia.

  18. #4518
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    Which is why we must give up on any fantasies of peaceful coexistence with Russia. It will always be an existential threat to the west. We must categorically reject Russia.
    Yes. And Japan continues to threaten the Pacific with their expansionist empire, and Spain continues to be a problem with their South American ambitions, and don't even start me about that eternal German threat to France or the ongoing risk of Scottish invasion of England.

    Silly silly logic. Russia is currently a problem for it's neighbours. That can easily be changed. But both leaders and cultures change in their outlook. And it happens faster than you think.

    The moment we give up on positive change, is the moment we become part of the problem.
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  19. #4519

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    We made every attempt to peacefully coexist with Russia. And they rejected it and threw it in our faces not once, not twice, not even three times. No one should expect an 11th chance.

    Sure, Russia could change. In the same way I could win the lottery, become President, and be voted sexiest man alive. But it makes far more sense to plan for these things never happening instead of wishing it would be so.

    The best outcome is complete separation and isolation of Russia from the west. Don't let them poison our societies with their congenital fascism any more than they already have.

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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    We made every attempt to peacefully coexist with Russia. And they rejected it and threw it in our faces not once, not twice, not even three times. No one should expect an 11th chance.

    Sure, Russia could change. In the same way I could win the lottery, become President, and be voted sexiest man alive. But it makes far more sense to plan for these things never happening instead of wishing it would be so.

    The best outcome is complete separation and isolation of Russia from the west. Don't let them poison our societies with their congenital fascism any more than they already have.
    Cultural change is guaranteed to occur, as are leadership changes, policy changes and other influencers of cultural views. You winning lottery is a dice roll. Your analogy is very flawed, and your eternal damnation is the literal pre-judging of millions of future Russians, as yet unborn.
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