View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

Voters
99. You may not vote on this poll
  • I support Ukraine fully.

    64 64.65%
  • I support Russia fully.

    12 12.12%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 4.04%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    6 6.06%
  • Not sure.

    6 6.06%
  • I don't care.

    7 7.07%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #4221
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    Go and try to explain that to them.
    What exactly are you getting at? I'll try to respond to what you may be saying though, it seems clear both western and eastern populations are conditioned to think certain ways about each other.
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  2. #4222
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    What exactly are you getting at? I'll try to respond to what you may be saying though, it seems clear both western and eastern populations are conditioned to think certain ways about each other.
    Eastern Europe is more terrified of Russia than you and i could ever be for obvious reasons. What a ridiculous notion.

  3. #4223
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    Eastern Europe is more terrified of Russia than you and i could ever be for obvious reasons. What a ridiculous notion.
    I've got to disagree with that broad statement, if you read this for example, you'll see that there's not an insignificant divide in conditioning between eastern and western populations.


    As a group, the miners appeared reluctant to pass judgement on the war or President Putin directly. Many of them are Russian-speaking and appeared keen to avoid territory that could cause frictions within a tight-knit community. But several men acknowledged a strong nostalgia for the Soviet era and the times when Ukrainians and Russians worked side by side in the mines.

    "Whether you want Putin or not, we still need to live and work. There are a lot of 'Soviets' here," said Vitaly. "I consider myself simply a local. Some of us speak Russian as our first language. But we all share the same sky."
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  4. #4224
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Ludicus stated this back in Feb on the day of the invasion. Don't mistake a desire for peace and a dislike for American-led military responses for an acceptance of the Russian position
    Thank you, anteus.
    In fact, even before the invasion, on 27 december 2012 (at the time I thought there would be no invasion) I wrote,
    If Ukraine joins NATO, the conflict is inevitable. In an essay published last July, entitled "On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians- (use google to search*) published on the Kremlin's website, Putin expresses his conviction that Russians and Ukrainians are "one people."

    In one particularly ominous passage, Putin openly questions the legitimacy of neighboring country borders and argues that much of modern-day Ukraine occupies land that is historically Russian, before declaring, "Russia has been stolen". In his essay, Putin even suggests a new annexation of Ukrainian territory after Crimea, stating, "I am increasingly convinced of this - Kiev simply does not need Donbass." Putin goes further, as he leaves underlying the idea that Ukrainian independence ultimately depends on Moscow's consent. "I am confident that Ukraine's true sovereignty is possible only in partnership with Russia".

    Then he adds, "It wasn't us who reached the US or UK borders. No. It was they who reached our borders”.

    Sadly, what can we conclude? even if the ultimate aim is not, in fact, invasion - the Russian people do not, in the midst of a pandemic and ensuing economic crisis, want a war - the imperial ambitions of Putin are not a bluff. Putin once described the fall of the Soviet Union as "the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century". "What was the collapse of the USSR? It was the collapse of historic Russia. We lost 40 per cent of our territory”.
    (*)Article by Vladimir Putin ”On the Historical Unity of Russians

    I would like to add that the problem is much more complex, because as I've mentioned previously, we are also facing a double war of secession and a double nationalism in the south of Ukraine. Wars of secession, throughout history, have been the most brutal. And of course, in fact, Ukraine has been a NATO member since 2014, all that was left was to sign a formal agreement. This and the absence of an EU/Russia security agreement acted as a catalyst for the Russian invasion.
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  5. #4225
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    in fact, Ukraine has been a NATO member since 2014, all that was left was to sign a formal agreement
    Were that case it would a no fly zone... nonsense.

    This and the absence of an EU/Russia security agreement acted as a catalyst for the Russian invasion.
    Ahh once again Russia has no agency it for to act for reasons that exist only n Putin's head.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

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  6. #4226
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Once again, for the last time:

    Only 36%,Mithradates.
    Your claim:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    And I have also mentioned the relevant fact that most Europeans do not want to send weapons to Ukraine, as well as the fact that without Russia, there will never be a stability pact for Europe.
    Your source:

    Netherlands 65%
    Great Britain 63%
    Sweden 61%

    Canada 58%
    Poland 58%
    Germany 55%
    France 53%

    Australia 50%
    Spain 46%
    Belgium 44%
    You are lying.

  7. #4227
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    I've got to disagree with that broad statement, if you read this for example, you'll see that there's not an insignificant divide in conditioning between eastern and western populations.
    I personally don't care about who is conditioned to accept dangers they cannot otherwise ignore. The actual threat of living next to Russia is obviously and objectively considerable. If i would tell a Polish guy what you said, i would expect him to jump in my face for that ignorant nonsense. Of course we can be "conditioned" to live with the dangers around us. But this is not merely people who settle around a volcano and expect it to be silent for the next 2000 years. This is people who live next to other people. People should not expect others to be a source of utter devastation and death anymore. Conditioning to absorb that threat and fear is not acceptable. So I'm asking you again: who has to be worried about the Russians under the present circumstances? Those who live next to them or those who live far away from them? Come on, it's really not rocket science to figure that one out.

  8. #4228
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    I personally don't care about who is conditioned to accept dangers they cannot otherwise ignore. The actual threat of living next to Russia is obviously and objectively considerable. If i would tell a Polish guy what you said, i would expect him to jump in my face for that ignorant nonsense. Of course we can be "conditioned" to live with the dangers around us. But this is not merely people who settle around a volcano and expect it to be silent for the next 2000 years. This is people who live next to other people. People should not expect others to be a source of utter devastation and death anymore. Conditioning to absorb that threat and fear is not acceptable. So I'm asking you again: who has to be worried about the Russians under the present circumstances? Those who live next to them or those who live far away from them? Come on, it's really not rocket science to figure that one out.
    What're you even talking about? Those miners are doing work under Russian (and maybe Ukranian) artillery fire and saying "there's a lot of Soviets here".


    edit:

    Maybe you want to discuss eastern european countries views of Russia but that was a bit away from what I was getting at; for info though here's the research about that

    A quarter century after the end of the Soviet era, support for an assertive Russia is widespread across Central and Eastern Europe. Majorities or pluralities in 12 of the 18 countries surveyed express agreement with the statement, “A strong Russia is necessary to balance the influence of the West.” These feelings are especially widespread where Orthodoxy is the majority religion; roughly half or more of adults “completely” or “mostly” agree that a strong Russia is necessary in each Orthodox-majority country surveyed, with the exception of Ukraine.

    Support for Russia is lowest in some of the places where relationships with Moscow have been particularly contentious, including Poland, Ukraine and the Baltic States. Even in these countries, however, religious disparities persist. In Ukraine, where just 22% of those surveyed say a strong Russia is necessary to balance the West, the share of Orthodox Christians who express this sentiment is double that of Catholics (23% vs. 11%). And Orthodox minorities in Bosnia, Estonia and Latvia are much more likely than their countries’ general populations to say a strong Russia is necessary. (In Latvia and Estonia, most Orthodox Christians identify as ethnic Russians.)

    Generally speaking this is part of the effects from the "Great Schism" between the east and west. With respect to Ukraine specifically though, the East West divide exists again to some extent but I'm not really sure to what extent. Voting data for elections (using euromaidenpress terms; strips of color being majorities, red being pro-russian (Yanukovych, or CPU communist party), yellow "populist" (Bloc – BYuT / Servant of People), blue "national democratic actors" (Our Ukraine, Poroshenko Bloc) in election 1, election 2, election 3, election 4, election 5) shows that pro Russian parties and leaders in the east and south (Crimea) practically always, even despite the war, receive votes and even majorities in Eastern Ukraine but it's probably more an ethnic and political divide. I'm not sure why they call Zelensky a populist because that's usually a negative term.

    Interestingly Eastern Ukraine generally earns more money than Western Ukraine, so maybe it's also partly the financial aspect that draws them into voting pro Russia.
    Last edited by z3n; May 27, 2022 at 08:53 PM. Reason: added some links which may be interesting
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  9. #4229

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    They wont need to negotiate because we can just buy them on bidding market. Surely corrupted officers and warlords would be happy to exchange nukes with gold and weapons they can actually use in a civil war. And we have plenty of both.

    Meanwhile we can resume missile defense system.
    Russia's nuclear systems are extremely centralized and always have been*. Regional governors don't have any control whatsoever (any more than US state governors control America's).

    Even if Russia experiences difficulties with control of its territories (which I should stress is not likely), the nuclear arsenal will be firmly controlled by whomever controls the central government in Moscow.

    *Which is why the argument about 'Ukraine's' nuclear arsenal in 1991 often misses a crucial point: the weapons might have been stationed in Ukraine, but the Ukrainian SSR did not control them. They had neither the means to launch the missiles nor detonate the warheads, since both required codes they didn't have.

  10. #4230
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    @Laser101.

    Its true Ukraine would not have become a Nuclear power over night had it kept its weapons. And the deal it stuck was probably/certainly the best choice at the time. But I suspect eventually it would have been able to parley the USSR stockpile it had into a working nuclear arsenal. I mean would require deconstructing everything and reconstructing but its still starting with the pieces vs having to provide them from scratch. And the cost of that would still not be trivial. The carrots the US was dangling debt forgiveness and funding to improve civilian nuclear infrastructure were just really too good.
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    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  11. #4231
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Edit,
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    You are lying.
    You are right. I owe you an apology. Sorry. I wrongly said "relevant fact that most Europeans do not want to send weapons to Ukraine"; I should have said – as I said in my first and last post- "the relevant fact that on average across 27 countries: most do not want to send weapons to Ukraine"
    In my first post, I wrote,
    Originally Posted by Ludicus
    The article quoted below addresses the imperative need, the importance of the stability to Europe in the long run, and it also mentions (and this is not an irrelevant fact, which cannot be ignored) that a recent survey of public opinion - Link (April 2022) - across 27 Western countries found (see summary of the findings, first page) that on average only 36% support their country providing weapons to the Ukrainian military in the conflict.
    26 May 2022
    Polls show US support for Ukraine waning as Biden ...
    (…) the poll came hard on the heels of Congress approving a US$13.6 billion aid package. But that trend could be expected to continue as Congress pushes through even more aid for Ukraine, signing off on another US$40 billion just last week.
    At the same time, Americans are becoming less inclined to feel the US has an obligation to defend Ukraine. According to polling firm Morning Consult, for the second week in a row in May the share of voters who believe the US has such an obligation is down, falling to 44% from a high of 50%. Republicans (32%) are the least likely to believe the US has an obligation to defend Ukraine, compared with 57% of Democrats and 40% of independents. Only one in four Americans now say the US is doing too little to support Ukraine, a record low since Morning Consult began tracking the numbers… While solidarity with Ukraine remains strong within Congress and the Biden administration, it clearly has limits with the American electorate.
    Economy bigger priority than punishing Russia: AP-NORC poll
    Americans are becoming less supportive of punishing Russia for launching its invasion of Ukraine if it comes at the expense of the U.S. economy
    Sweden's ambitions to join NATO will likely have to wait until September
    As Sweden woos Turkey, fears mount over what it will cede
    Sweden hopes to strike a compromise with Turkey to seal its NATO membership bid, but fears are mounting in the Scandinavian country that the government may sacrifice too much to get what it wants.
    "If you want to sell everything for NATO membership, then go ahead but I think it's awful", blasted Amineh Kakabaveh, a Swedish lawmaker of Iranian Kurdish origin.
    "It's awful that everything depends on NATO membership, rushing it through and undermining democracy," she told AFP in an interview.
    Kakabaveh has already threatened to withdraw her support for the Swedish government in upcoming votes.
    Sweden goes to the polls on September.

    Russia tests new hypersonic missile Zircon,
    Russia has successfully test-fired a new hypersonic missile - Zircon - with a range of over 1,000 km (625 miles), news agency Reuters reported Saturday. Reuters cited a Russian defence ministry communication that said the missile had been fired from the Barents Sea and hit a target in the White Sea - a distance of around 1,016 km (631 miles). In earlier tests Russia also claimed to have fired the Zircon from a submerged submarine.
    Last month, Moscow claimed it had twice fired Kinzhal hypersonic missiles at targets in Ukraine. The Kinzhal - the most recent addition to Russia's arsenal - is an air-launched missile with a reported range of 1,500 to 2,000 km (932 to 1,242 miles), making it an even more devastating weapon.
    Also last month Moscow test-launched a new nuclear-capable intercontinental missile - Sarmat - capable of carrying 10+ warheads as far as the United States.
    And last week Moscow claimed to have used a powerful 'next generation' laser weapon - Zadira - to burn up drones launched by Ukrainian forces. Moscow also claimed to have a second system - Peresvet - in readiness. Western military experts said such weapons could take down Ukrainian drones or artillery and also to blind Ukrainian soldiers, which is banned under rules of war.
    During his debate with Prof. Farkas, Meirsheimeir said: "When Professor Farkas talks about the consequences of this for the world order, I'm more worried about the consequences if we ended up getting hit with nuclear weapons"
    Meirsheimeir admitted that that Putin would use nuclear weapons first in Europe. If Meirsheimer is worried, I am even more worried, because I live in Europe, not in the United States.
    ----
    An American leftist perspective. The Nation endorsed Bernie Sanders for President 2016-2020.
    Waging Proxy War in Ukraine Won't Save Us From Ourselves - The Nation

    The policing of public opinion over Ukraine goes to extremes unimagined during the fight against Hitler.
    America has been involved in a crisis of conscience for some time. Most of our recent political controversies have ended in denunciations and upheavals that seem off the charts by the standard of all previous American experience outside war.

    Consider the right-wing birther movement, which questioned the authenticity of President Obama’s citizenship, and the left-liberal Russiagate scandal, which accused President Trump of being a Russian agent. The loudest voices leveling these charges came from people with no interest in evidence. Rather, the accusations served their purpose within the factions that constitute the “base” of the major parties.
    Barack Obama, a few years into his presidency, got into the habit of saying (in a tight spot when Americans seemed to support a bad cause): “It’s not who we are as a people.” But do we know who we are as a people? On March 3, the Metropolitan Opera severed its relations with the singer Anna Netrebko because, in speaking out against the Ukraine war, she failed to denounce Russian President Vladimir Putin and said a word in defense of artistic freedom:
    I am opposed to this war. I am Russian and I love my country but I have many friends in Ukraine and the pain and suffering right now breaks my heart. I want this war to end and for people to be able to live in peace…. I want to add, however: forcing artists, or any public figure, to voice their political opinions in public and to denounce their homeland is not right.
    Would any foreign artist in living memory have been so publicly dishonored for not reciting the prepared script?

    According to a July 2020 Cato Institute poll, almost two out of three Americans are afraid to voice their political opinions because they fear they might offend someone. They save those opinions for election time—and we should not be surprised that the results of elections surprise us. In 2016, the result turned into a permanent shock—a slow-rolling, everlasting panic—for Democrats. The same happened to Republicans in 2020. Constitutional democracy requires a peaceful transfer of power following free elections. This, in turn, depends on the custom that losers concede with grace and winners are allowed their innings. But a great many Democrats, led by Hillary Clinton, were persuaded that the 2016 election had been stolen by Putin. Four years later, a majority of Republicans, led by Donald Trump, came to believe that the 2020 election was stolen by some combination of illegal ballot-harvesting, deliberate miscounts, and tampering with computers.

    Both eruptions portended the loss of a national morale and discipline. If you were a foreign leader looking at the United States, you would say to yourself: “That is an unstable country; that is a troubled people. How can we enter into agreements with people who do not trust themselves?”

    On May 13, Steny Hoyer, the Democratic majority leader in the House of Representatives, said that the US is now “at war” with Russia. Congressional Republicans were overwhelming, and Democrats unanimous, in voting for a $40 billion war-assistance package to be sent to Ukraine. Apparently without any serious debate, we find ourselves on the brink of all-out war in defense of a favored nation, against a nuclear-armed power, Russia.
    Recall that Ukraine was the source of the information that launched the first impeachment of President Trump, and that Trump’s offense took the form of an extortionate demand for information about the salary paid by a Ukrainian energy firm, Burisma Holdings, in return for unexplained services by the son of our current president, Joe Biden. It is at points like this that Roman orators would break off a speech with a silence that signified: “Words fail me.”

    George Washington said in his Farewell Address: “The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism.”
    Concerning the division of other nations into friend and enemy, Washington added: “Nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded…. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations, has been the victim.”

    Washington’s warning applies with summary accuracy to American foreign policy since 2001.

    Today we are far gone in “passionate attachments” and “inveterate antipathies.” But while we instruct the world in democracy, our own politics has become a scene of uninhibited aggression that undermines our standing as instructors. One party refuses to dissociate itself from the riot that burst into the Capitol and sought to disrupt the certification of the 2020 election vote. The other party answers the sudden increase of shootings in American cities after June 2020 by blaming it on Covid.

    What we have seen in the last 10 years, intensified in the last five, and raised to a fever pitch in the last two, is the ascent of mob psychology and hysteria on an exorbitant scale. It shows in our lazy, frightened acceptance of censorship—lately elevated to the point where Facebook and Twitter could jointly announce a ban on all messages, news, and communications that “undermine trust in the Ukrainian government.” This kind of blackout was considered beneath our dignity in the fight against Hitler and the Cold War.

    The US proxy war in Ukraine, and the bipartisan self-satisfaction with which many Americans regard it, is an exercise of displacement. We are risking a world war in the belief that only a world war can repair our broken democracy. But are we so helpless? And are we so important? If we could decide “who we are as a people,” we might go some way to reduce the terrible destruction of another war. We might even earn thanks from the billions who are not Americans but who are compelled to share the planet with us.
    --
    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    blue "national democratic actors" (Our Ukraine, Poroshenko Bloc)
    According to the Guardian, a few minutes ago,
    Former Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko was prevented from leaving Ukraine to take part in a meeting of a Nato body in Lithuania, his party’s parliamentary faction has said.
    Reuters reports Poroshenko was stopped twice at a border crossing with Poland while he was on his way to the meeting of Nato’s Parliamentary Assembly, a consultative interparliamentary organisation, a statement said.
    Ukrainian media reported Poroshenko could not cross the border due to “technical problems” with a permit allowing him to leave the country.
    His European Solidarity parliamentary faction said: “Poroshenko had received all the formal permissions to leave the country and had been included ... in the official delegation of the Parliament of Ukraine for this event.”
    Poroshenko was to have several high-level meetings in Vilnius, including with the president of Lithuania Gitanas Nauseda. He was also scheduled to participate in a meeting of the European People’s Party in Rotterdam, it said.
    In January, Poroshenko won a court ruling allowing him to remain at liberty while being investigated for treason in a probe he says was a politically motivated attack linked to allies of his successor, president Volodymyr Zelenskiy.
    Last edited by Ludicus; May 28, 2022 at 09:38 AM.
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  12. #4232
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    @Laser101.

    Its true Ukraine would not have become a Nuclear power over night had it kept its weapons. And the deal it stuck was probably/certainly the best choice at the time. But I suspect eventually it would have been able to parley the USSR stockpile it had into a working nuclear arsenal. I mean would require deconstructing everything and reconstructing but its still starting with the pieces vs having to provide them from scratch. And the cost of that would still not be trivial. The carrots the US was dangling debt forgiveness and funding to improve civilian nuclear infrastructure were just really too good.
    In reality what you're suggesting is extremely difficult and the *exact* assembly process must be known by those doing the disassembly. We don't even know whether the Russians designed their nukes to blow up during an incorrect disassembly process.

    To unpick a nuclear device, engineers need to know the exact sequence in which the pieces were originally put together.
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  13. #4233
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Were that case it would a no fly zone... nonsense.
    For that, in fact, all that was left was to sign a formal agreement. Since 2014, the United States has provided more than $6.6 billion in security assistance for training and equipment to help Ukraine preserve its territorial integrity, secure its borders, and improve interoperability with NATO, says the US Department of State.
    More,Documents to download Military Assistance to Ukraine 2014-2021 (154 KB , PDF) UK and US
    Download the full report. https://researchbriefings.files.parl...35/SN07135.pdf

    A few excerpts,

    ...Primarily through NATO, specifically the NATO-Ukraine Commission, and through initiatives such as the US/Canada/UK/Ukraine Joint Commission for Defence Reform and Security Cooperation which was established in July 2014. In contrast to the United States (see below), the UK Government ruled out providing lethal arms to Ukraine at the time. Other European leaders, including then German Chancellor Angela Merkel and then French President Francois Hollande, also openly opposed arming Ukraine.

    …Since 2014 US military assistance has focused on: the training and mentoring of the Ukrainian armed forces, often in concert with allies through the Joint Commission on Defense Reform and Security Cooperation.

    In 2014 the Obama administration provided significant non-lethal military equipment to Ukraine. That was supplemented over the course of 2015 with a package of military assistance worth $75 million, including Humvees, surveillance drones, night vision devices and military ambulances. At the time, the Obama administration, with the support of Congress, indicated that it was considering providing Ukraine with lethal weapons if “diplomacy fails to end the crisis in the east”.

    However, it wasn’t until the Trump administration that the decision was taken to provide Ukraine with major defensive lethal weaponry.
    In 2018, and again in 2019, the US provided Ukraine with Javelin anti-tank missiles. Among other things, the US has also provided sniper rifles, rocket propelled grenade launchers and two retired US coastguard patrol boats to the Ukrainian Navy. The Trump Administration also continued to provide nonlethal aid to Ukraine, including night vision, medical, communication, command and control and military mobility equipment.

    In June 2020 Congress approved a $250 million package to Ukraine intended to address shortfalls in Ukraine’s capacity, specifically in air and maritime surveillance, command and control, secure communications, cyber defence and strategic communications. In addition to that package, the US State Department also authorised the sale of (...)
    Go to page 8 and read.

    In August 2021 the US and Ukraine also signed a Strategic Defense Framework to provide a foundation for strengthening defence cooperation
    Link: https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news...haye-nov-70461
    Ukraine joined NATO’s North Atlantic Cooperation Council as a partner country in 1991 and the Partnership for Peace programme in 1994. The NATO Ukraine Commission was also established in 1997 and is the forum through which consultation between NATO allies and Ukraine takes place on security issues of common concern.
    Since 2016 NATO’s practical support for Ukraine has been set out in its Comprehensive Assistance Package. Specifically, that support is focused on 16 capacity building programmes and several trust funds, a number of which were established after 2014. Those latter trust funds include:
    • command, control, communications and computers (C4)
    • logistics and transformation
    • Cyber defence
    • Medical rehabilitation
    • Explosive ordnance disposal and countering-IEDs.
    NATO has increased its presence in the Black Sea and stepped up maritime cooperation with both Ukraine and Georgia. NATO allies also participate in a wide range of military exercises with Ukrainian armed forces personnel through the Military Committee with Ukraine Work Plan. Exercise Rapid Trident, for example, has been held annually since 2011. That particular exercise has been used more recently as a validation exercise for Ukrainian armed forces undergoing training with NATO allies. In June 2020 Ukraine was offered Enhanced Opportunity Partner status with NATO. This status provides Ukraine with preferential access to NATO’s exercises, training and exchange of information and situational awareness, in order to increase interoperability. In September 2020 Ukraine hosted Exercise Joint Endeavour, with British, US and Canadian troops. This was the first exercise conducted under Ukraine’s new enhanced status.
    Etc.
    Last edited by Ludicus; May 28, 2022 at 10:10 AM.
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    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...er-2022-05-28/

    Harpoon missiles have arrived in Ukraine along with more howitzers including the M109 self-propelled artillery. There's also now talks of Biden possibly approving the transfer of HIMARs or MLRS to Ukraine.
    Last edited by Vanoi; May 28, 2022 at 10:12 AM.

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    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    There's also now talks of Biden possibly approving the transfer of HIMARs or MLRS to Ukraine.
    Read a previous post. #4208
    --
    The cost of rebuilding Ukraine right now is equivalent to the cost of 3 x the country's GDP, I hear. It is imperative that peace be established quickly, and that a stabilization agreement be made with Russia, for a lasting peace. After that, and respecting the EU rules, in the long run, I think there will be no problem for Ukraine to become part of the EU. But the country needs a fast reconstruction project appealing to international solidarity.
    --
    Edit,
    Schultz and Macron were on the phone for over an hour talking to Putin about how to achieve peace. I don't see Biden having the slightest interest in this. Zelensky on Friday said the country has to face the reality that talks with Russia will likely be necessary to end the war. Ukrainians "Eager To Talk To Putin But...": President Zelensky

    …but Biden isn’t interested. The New York Times asks, "Is the United States, for example, trying to help bring an end to this conflict, through a settlement that would allow for a sovereign Ukraine and some kind of relationship between the United States and Russia?. Without clarity on these questions, the White House not only risks losing Americans’ interest in supporting Ukrainians — who continue to suffer the loss of lives and livelihoods — but also jeopardizes long-term peace and security on the European continent.”
    As I have been saying all along.
    Last edited by Ludicus; May 28, 2022 at 11:15 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  16. #4236
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Read a previous post. #4208
    --
    The cost of rebuilding Ukraine right now is equivalent to the cost of 3 x the country's GDP, I hear. It is imperative that peace be established quickly, and that a stabilization agreement be made with Russia, for a lasting peace. After that, and respecting the EU rules, in the long run, I think there will be no problem for Ukraine to become part of the EU. But the country needs a fast reconstruction project appealing to international solidarity.
    --
    Edit,
    Schultz and Macron were on the phone for over an hour talking to Putin about how to achieve peace. I don't see Biden having the slightest interest in this. Zelensky on Friday said the country has to face the reality that talks with Russia will likely be necessary to end the war. Ukrainians "Eager To Talk To Putin But...": President Zelensky

    …but Biden isn’t interested. The New York Times asks, "Is the United States, for example, trying to help bring an end to this conflict, through a settlement that would allow for a sovereign Ukraine and some kind of relationship between the United States and Russia?. Without clarity on these questions, the White House not only risks losing Americans’ interest in supporting Ukrainians — who continue to suffer the loss of lives and livelihoods — but also jeopardizes long-term peace and security on the European continent.”
    As I have been saying all along.
    Harpoon missiles could allow Ukraine to re-gain control of part of the Black Sea allowing the export of wheat and other grains the world so desperately needs. HIMARs and MRLS will allow the Ukrainians to fight the Russian offensive back. Hard to seek peace when you're enemy is conducting offensives on your lands and seeking to annex parts of your country.

  17. #4237
    AqD's Avatar 。◕‿◕。
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    *Which is why the argument about 'Ukraine's' nuclear arsenal in 1991 often misses a crucial point: the weapons might have been stationed in Ukraine, but the Ukrainian SSR did not control them. They had neither the means to launch the missiles nor detonate the warheads, since both required codes they didn't have.
    not directly but why couldn't they hire foreign professionals to help replace the control system?

    also even though they might have no value themselves, buying them from the hands of Russia is already beneficial so they can't be used by enemies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    …but Biden isn’t interested. The New York Times asks, "Is the United States, for example, trying to help bring an end to this conflict, through a settlement that would allow for a sovereign Ukraine and some kind of relationship between the United States and Russia?. Without clarity on these questions, the White House not only risks losing Americans’ interest in supporting Ukrainians — who continue to suffer the loss of lives and livelihoods — but also jeopardizes long-term peace and security on the European continent.”
    As I have been saying all along.
    What relationship would you seek with someone who considers murdering and raping neighbors his natural right?

    The long-term peace and security on the European continent and the sovereign of Ukraine can only depend on the destruction of Russian military and military industry and the inability to rebuild them in foreseeable future.

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    Nukes should never be on the table at all. Period. When i say "China is not a nuclear threat" i mean the amount of destruction they can deliver compared to the amount of the destruction they know they would have to suffer. But this is reduced to the question who is more likely to survive. physically. Not about who has any future after such an exchange of aggression. The world as we know it would end. Billions would die and there would be no questions asked about economy and prosperity.
    Showing them we're willing to use nukes is the only way to prevent them from using it on Ukraine, and to show other countries we cannot be subjected by the threat of mutual destruction.
    Last edited by AqD; May 28, 2022 at 12:59 PM.

  18. #4238

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Read a previous post. #4208
    --
    The cost of rebuilding Ukraine right now is equivalent to the cost of 3 x the country's GDP, I hear. It is imperative that peace be established quickly, and that a stabilization agreement be made with Russia, for a lasting peace. After that, and respecting the EU rules, in the long run, I think there will be no problem for Ukraine to become part of the EU. But the country needs a fast reconstruction project appealing to international solidarity.
    And how do You imagine that "lasting peace"? One that will guarantee that Russians will not come back in few years or even in a decade?

  19. #4239
    Alastor's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Duc d'Enghien View Post
    And how do You imagine that "lasting peace"? One that will guarantee that Russians will not come back in few years or even in a decade?
    And how do you imagine you'll stop them from doing that? A full-on NATO invasion? A nuclear war? The destruction of the Russian state? As long as Russia exists, it will have interests in Ukraine. There is no guarantee they will "never come back". So barring a negotiated settlement that takes into account Russia's interests and incentivizes them to keep the peace, the only other path is the destruction of Russia. Thankfully the western leaders, whatever their faults, haven't yet lost their minds completely.
    Last edited by Alastor; May 28, 2022 at 02:53 PM.

  20. #4240

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    This only shows how extremely difficult is to find a realistic peaceful solution at the moment. From Ukrainian point of view its existential, so it might be a better option to fight now and bleed Russia as much as possible, while they make mistakes and take pretty heavy casualities. If you appease Russians now, they will be back but better prepared and stronger.

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