Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

[z3n]

I think youre missing the propaganda opportunities, Azov Nazis will probably be put to the stand for war crimes, especially given Ukraines recent emphasis and efforts to do the same.

[Mithradates]

And that would be the only "WIN" for Russia.
Feel the embarrassment?

[z3n]

Azov Nazis are an embarrassment, but not to me. I don't really care since I'm not Ukranian. I'm sure lots of Ukranians are against the Azov Nazis and dislike them greatly with embarrassment.

[saamohod]

Azov Nazis

Someone has been feeding from Russian propaganda lately, completely oblivious to the fact that Russia turned into a crystal clear fascist state.

[antaeus]

z3n is correct tho.

If there are members amongst the Azov Regiment who can be proven to have committed atrocities then some sort of trial would be appropriate. Although membership in the Azov Regiment alone shouldn't constitute this proof. Even the Nazis amongst them are entitled to their beliefs so long as they don't commit atrocities.

And I am particularly dubious as to the ability of either the Russian civilian or military court systems to be able to offer a fair trial on this matter.

But with those caveats, z3n is correct.

[saamohod]

If there are members amongst the Azov Regiment who can be proven to have committed atrocities then some sort

Unless you mean the atrocities of murdering Russian invaders... Otherwise I can't think of any other type of atrocities they may have perpetrated. They are a regular regiment of Ukrainian army. Their past is in the past.

[Mithradates]

Azov Nazis are an embarrassment, but not to me. I don't really care since I'm not Ukranian. I'm sure lots of Ukranians are against the Azov Nazis and dislike them greatly with embarrassment.

Yeah, Im sure Ukrainians feel embarrassed how their heroes are protecting them form the Orc invaders, makes sense, totally.

[antaeus]

Unless you mean the atrocities of murdering Russian invaders... Otherwise I can't think of any other type of atrocities they may have perpetrated. They are a regular regiment of Ukrainian army. Their past is in the past.

The same is true of regular army units. If any people in them can be shown to have committed atrocities then they too should see some sort of trial. Ukraine can't hold Russia's troops accountable with any sort of legitimacy without expecting it's own troops to be held accountable if they do bad. Ukraine should also hold it's own troops accountable for their behaviour if they do bad. That would be the behaviour of a country that adheres to rule of law - and that's a genuine point of difference Ukraine has been highlighting (at least in desire, if not yet in practice)

You don't really need to take z3n's bait on this.

[fkizz]

I think youre missing the propaganda opportunities, Azov Nazis will probably be put to the stand for war crimes, especially given Ukraines recent emphasis and efforts to do the same.

Well if propaganda is more useful than getting back a few experienced/skilled PoWs or not, is something to decide.

[antaeus]

Well if propaganda is more useful than getting back a few experienced/skilled PoWs or not, is something to decide.

From Putin's narrative perspective, the entire war was based on the idea that Ukraine is fill of Nazis, and the Azov Regiment is specifically referenced because of it's grey nationalist origins and it's habit of taking on all sorts early on (including neo-Nazis). The war is one of "denazification".

So yeah. The propaganda value of grabbing a significant % of the regiment's strength is immense. I would hazard so much so as to actually give Putin domestic leverage that he didn't have previously. It is tangible evidence of actual "denazification" occurring. "Look mom, we're ridding Ukraine of Azov Nazis"

It gives Putin a little room to change the narrative, and allow for a scaling back of the fighting. It can become part of his victory narrative. Of course we're way past that point, and Ukraine likely won't let him wiggle out of the fight like that. But it does provide him a little room to change the narrative.

[z3n]

Unless you mean the atrocities of murdering Russian invaders... Otherwise I can't think of any other type of atrocities they may have perpetrated. They are a regular regiment of Ukrainian army. Their past is in the past.

Azov Nazi's "past" on full display in many reports:

Other documented cases appear to be linked to the military presence in densely
populated civilian areas, such as towns near the contact line, and general impunity.
A man with a mental disability was subject to cruel treatment, rape and other forms
of sexual violence by eight to 10 members of the ‘Azov’ and ‘Donbas’ battalions in
August-September 2014. The victim’s health subsequently deteriorated and he was
hospitalized in a psychiatric hospital34.

A resident of Mariupolwas detained by three servicemen of the‘Azov’
battalion on 28 January 2015 for supporting the ‘Donetsk people’s republic’. He
was taken to the basement of Athletic School No. 61 in Mariupol, where he was
held until 6 February 2015. He was continuously interrogated and tortured. He
complained about being handcuffed to a metal rod and left hanging on it, he was
reportedly tortured with electricity, gas mask and subjected to waterboarding and he
was also beaten in his genitals. As a result he confessed about sharing information
with the armed groups about the locations of the Government checkpoints. Only on
7 February, he was taken to the Mariupol SBU, where he was officially detained.

The data that has been accumulated since the first report by the
Foundation for Democracy Studies provides ground to conclude that
torture and inhumane treatment inflicted by the Security Forces of
Ukraine (SBU), by the Ukrainian armed forces, the National Guard and
other formations within the Interior Ministry of Ukraine, as well as by
illegal armed groups, such as Right Sector, have not only continued but
are gaining in scale and are becoming systematic.

The prisoners were electrocuted, beaten cruelly and for multiple
days in a row with different objects (iron bars, baseball bats, sticks, rifle
butts, bayonet knives, rubber batons).
Techniques widely used by the Ukrainian armed forces and security
forces include waterboarding, strangling with a ‘Banderist garrotte’ and
other types of strangling.
In some cases prisoners, for the purposes of intimidation, were sent
to minefields and run over with military vehicles, which led to their
death.
Other torture methods used by the Ukrainian armed forces and
security forces include bone-crashing, stabbing and cutting with a knife,
branding with red-hot objects, shooting different body parts with small
arms.
The prisoners taken captive by the Ukrainian armed forces and
security forces are kept for days at freezing temperatures, with no access
to food or medical assistance, and are often forced to take psychotropic
substances that cause agony.
An absolute majority of prisoners are put through mock firing
squads and suffer death and rape threats to their families.
Many of those tortured are not members of the self-defense forces of
the Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics (DPR and LPR)1
.

The extent to which torture is being used and the fact that this is
done systematically prove that torture is an intentional strategy of the
said institutions, authorized by their leadership.

[Cyclops]

I have to admit I really enjoy reading about how Azov Nazis continue to be safely "evacuated" into enemy territory.

Not much to enjoy about this war. Even when the absurd and botched Russian attacks are thrown back to the border it still means Ukrainians have suffered horribly at the hands of unjust aggressors, and the Russian servicemen have families who suffer because their leader threw their lives and health away.

It were better the war never happened.

Just to be clear, are you enjoying the prospect of soldiers being treated unjustly?

[Vanoi]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/exclusive...163046651.html

The US is looking to supply Ukraine with anti-ship missiles to break the Russian blockade. Harpoon missiles or the Naval Strike Missile are weapons being considered to be sent to the Ukrainians.

[z3n]

Not much to enjoy about this war. Even when the absurd and botched Russian attacks are thrown back to the border it still means Ukrainians have suffered horribly at the hands of unjust aggressors, and the Russian servicemen have families who suffer because their leader threw their lives and health away.

It were better the war never happened.

Just to be clear, are you enjoying the prospect of soldiers being treated unjustly?

Just to be clear, are you referring to the Azov Nazis?

[antaeus]

Just to be clear, are you referring to the Azov Nazis?

All soldiers are afforded the same protections. Irrespective of whether they have swastika tattoos or not.

[z3n]

All soldiers are afforded the same protections. Irrespective of whether they have swastika tattoos or not.

Protection from being safely evacuated into enemy territory?

[antaeus]

Protection from being safely evacuated into enemy territory?

Protection from abuse. Safely evacuating troops to enemy territory would be exactly how you'd describe the most desirable outcome for some of your troops surrendering.

What's the alternative? Not safely evacuating them from the battlefield?

You're stretching this one waaaaay out.

[z3n]

Protection from abuse. Safely evacuating troops to enemy territory would be exactly how you'd describe the most desirable outcome for some of your troops surrendering. What's the alternative? Not safely evacuating them from the battlefield? You're stretching this one waaaaay out.

Sorry but I think you're stretching what I said out. "I have to admit I really enjoy reading about how Azov Nazis continue to be safely "evacuated" into enemy territory.". Nowhere do I mention "abuse".

[antaeus]

Sorry but I think you're stretching what I said out. "I have to admit I really enjoy reading about how Azov Nazis continue to be safely "evacuated" into enemy territory.". Nowhere do I mention "abuse".

You asked what they needed protection from.

I'm just backfilling your story without the inflammatory style. To ensure the masses don't get all knee-jerk about it.

Yes, any soldiers who've done wrong will likely stand trial for war crimes, yes the Azov Regiment's surrender makes for good propaganda for Putin.

Anything else?

[Cyclops]

Just to be clear, are you referring to the Azov Nazis?

I guess yes if it'll get a straight answer, the soldiers who surrendered, however you want to call them. What are you enjoying about it?