Fkizz - because only the US is Bad and has any agency. I mean clearly the egalitarian pacifist greater Mexican socialist cooperative would have survived all but for the US.
hoi polloi
Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future
Fkizz - because only the US is Bad and has any agency. I mean clearly the egalitarian pacifist greater Mexican socialist cooperative would have survived all but for the US.
IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites
'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'
But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.
Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.
Comes Limitis
Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future
Not at all, and you don't know what you are talking about.The United States (Gerald Ford) gave its agreement to Indonesia for the invasion.Even the wiki knows it well.Use google search.Originally Posted by fkizz
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More, East Timor Revisited - The National Security Archive
Buy and read the book "The Jakarta method: Washington’s anticommunist crusade and the mass murder program that shaped our world" The Jakarta Method - Vincent Bevins - FnacWASHINGTON, D.C. – The National Security Archive at George Washington University today published on the World Wide Web previously secret archival documents confirming for the first time that the Indonesian government launched its bloody invasion of Portuguese East Timor in December 1975 with the concurrence of President Gerald Ford and Secretary of State Henry Kissinger.
Since then, the Suharto regime that sponsored the invasion has disintegrated, and East Timor has achieved independence, but as many as 200,000 Timorese died during the twenty-five year occupation.Twenty-six years ago today, President Gerald Ford and Secretary of State Henry Kissinger met with Indonesian President Suharto during a brief stopover in Jakarta while they were flying back from Beijing. Aware that Suharto had plans to invade East Timor, and that the invasion was legally problematic—in part because of Indonesia's use of U.S. military equipment that Congress had approved only for self-defense—Ford and Kissinger wanted to ensure that Suharto acted only after they had returned to U.S. territory.
The invasion took place on December 7, 1975, the day after their departure, resulting in the quarter-century long violent and bloody Indonesian occupation of East Timor. Henry Kissinger has consistently denied that any substantive discussion of East Timor took place during the meeting with Suharto, but a newly declassified State Department telegram from December 1975 confirms that such a discussion took place and that Ford and Kissinger advised Suharto that “it is important that whatever you do succeeds quickly.”
Two key documents released today were declassified by the Gerald R. Ford Library at the request of the National Security Archive; Archive staffers located other documents at the National Archives. Today’s revelations include:When Suharto told Ford and Kissinger that he was about to order an invasion, the response was only to caution that "it would be better it it were done after we returned" (the invasion began the next day).
Kissinger told Suharto that the use of U.S.-supplied arms in the invasion—equipment that under U.S. law could not be used for offensive military operations—“could create problems,” but indicated that they might be able to “construe” the invasion as self-defense.
On 12 August 1975, a few days after a coup attempt in East Timor, Kissinger observed that an Indonesian takeover would take place “sooner or later”.
Six months into the occupation of East Timor, Kissinger acknowledged to senior State Department officials that U.S. military aid had been used “illegally” and hinted at his own doubts about the invasion: Washington had “not very willingly” resumed normal relations with Jakarta.
“This important set of documents reveals the overriding importance that the Ford administration attached to maintaining friendly relations with Indonesia in the immediate aftermath of the U.S. defeat in Vietnam. Ford and Kissinger plainly viewed the maintenance of warm ties with the Suharto regime as a foreign policy priority that far outweighed any secondary concerns about the possible Indonesian use of force in East Timor--even though the use of such force would … constitute a clear violation of American laws. The callous disregard for the human rights and political aspirations of the East Timorese are rather breathtakingly exposed in these newly released documents.” --- Robert J. McMahon, Professor of History, University of Florida, and author of The Limits of Empire: The United States and Southeast Asia Since 1945 (1999)
I think I have already mentioned this book, written by a journalist from the Washington Post's journalist, Vincent Bevins,and regarded as one of the best political books published in 2020 ( Financial Times)
And, once again, it was a brave socialist woman, Ana Gomes, one of the diplomats responsible for the Timor independence process.(...) It was also in 1975 that the withdrawal of another colonial power sent ripples throughout the Third World. The dictatorship in Portugal, which had ruled since 1933, had fallen apart. United States developed a “contingency plan” toi nvade parts of Portuguese territory if a government it considered communist took over.6 Lucky for the Portuguese, Washington allowed the elected left-wing(not communist) government to exist. The new Portuguese administration decided on a rapid withdrawal from what was left of its empire.Suharto looked east, and he pulled out his old bag of tricks. Among Portugal’s newly freed colonies was the small nation of East Timor, which shared an island with Indonesian territory. When East Timor gained its independence, Suharto claimed he was threatened by communism on his borders (...)
Calling this a wild exaggeration would be generous. Neither China, the Soviet Union, nor Vietnam was backing the tiny country. The party that oversaw the Timorese declaration of independence, FRETILIN, did have a left wing, and some of its members used Marxist language, which was hardly surprising for a Portuguese-speaking national liberation movement at the time. But this was enough for Washington, which was convinced that East Timor could become a“Cuba in Asia”—even though Nixon had already re-established relations with the Communist Party in Beijing. He gave Suharto a “big wink,” and the Indonesian generals quickly drew up Operasi Seroja—Operation Lotus. Indonesia invaded in December 1975. The people of East Timor did not want the Indonesian military there. FRETILIN radicalized, and launched a “people’s war” against the invaders. To put down the freedom fighters, the Indonesian Armed Forces killed up to three hundred thousand people. From 1975 to 1979,while both Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter sat in the White House, Washington’s closest ally in Southeast Asia annihilated up to a third of the population of EastTimor, a higher percentage than those who died under Pol Pot in Cambodia.
(...) the major losers of the twentieth century were those who believed too sincerely in the existence a liberal international order, those who trusted too much in democracy, or too much in what the United States said it supported, rather than what it really supported—what the rich countries said,rather than what they did.(...)
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Colonialism was disaster, fkizz. Colonialism did not benefit the colonized. Colonialism is exploitation, fkizz.
Last edited by Ludicus; May 06, 2022 at 01:45 PM.
Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
Charles Péguy
Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
Thomas Piketty
Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future
That sounds interesting to check out but, you could have more credibility if you didn't blame the US for everything. It's like US job is to be the Fall Guy, if it rains and you have no umbrella - it was the US who did it.
Well the casualties of the Civil Wars in Angola and Mozambique were the price of freedom and human rights for Continentals to glorify themselves as Humanitarian I guess.
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If Colonialism is exploitation, then you don't need Empires or Armies to do it. There's plenty in an ordinary daily life to do "colonialism". There's plenty of "colonialism" without any colonies in the world.
Literal Human Slave Markets still exist too, but the human rights crusaders do nothing. This is why I don't take their moral lessons as coherent.
I prefer to stick each method to each era. A colony is a rural settlement ouside of old Italian borders, during Classical times, and the term comes from Latin. Now if you can do exploitation in that farm settlement outside Italian boundaries, that is another question, it can either be done or not done.
Last edited by fkizz; May 06, 2022 at 03:26 PM.
It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.
-George Orwell
Senator
Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future
According to information released by the Ukrainian Ministry of Defence, the Russian frigate ‘Admiral Makarov’, which was believed to be at the Sevastopol naval base, was hit and sunk by Ukrainian Neptune missiles
You´re all wrong it´s the latest Variant of the Zubr-Class Landing Craft which can also fly over some altitude so it does not need to take a long distance from Black Sea to Murmansk Oblast. It was a Secret but now with the outbreak of the War it was imminent to be used on that purpose - lack of some delicacies on the front aswell the lost of the Smart Z Car left no other options:Fixed it for you.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future
It reads like neocon garbage.
"Russia was then an ally" "NATO expansion allied to Ukrainian nationalism and its eight year war" this seems pretty sloppy mate. "NATO" is not allied to Ukraine, nor was the UK allied to Russia. Ukraine's "war" in Donbas was not a war, it was a foreign sponsored separatist movement the internationally recognised state was unable to supress because of the armed thereat of an enemy. Russia's invasion is a war. Claiming "NATO allied Ukrainian Nationalism's war" "opens a space" is a weird way of saying Russia has a right to invade its neighbour because a concept made war on a non Russian territory.
The US being bad does not justify Russia being bad. This is wrong. They need to leave.
Jatte lambastes Calico Rat
igni ferroque
Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future
The PH 2000 is a really awesome weapon and of course instructors come with the delivery. Sending hundreds of tanks to Ukraine would be troublesome for Germany, given the dependency on Russian gas. It would also beg the question if such a decision to intervene is still neutral. So the Tanks can't come rolling off the production line straight to Ukraine. Direct war with Russia is way too much death included not only for Germany, but for everyone on the world. So far only 7 vehicles of this type have been delivered, but that is all that can be done for now. Walking the line of support and direct military confrontation is balancing a thread.
Last edited by swabian; May 07, 2022 at 02:06 PM.
Comes Limitis
Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future
If you say so, Cyclops. But you see, that's "genetically" impossible.Salvage is a bi-annual journal of revolutionary arts and letters.It's a little radical, even for my leftist taste, but they do publish wonderful articles.
Here is a key to end the war in Ukraine-Crimea: Key to Ending War in Ukraine - Opinio Juris
John Quigley was appointed in 1994 by the US Department of State and the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe (predecessor to the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe) as an independent legal expert to recommend solutions for the status of Crimea and to promote reconciliation between the authorities in Kiev and Simferopol.
But neither the Ukrainian nationalists nor Washington will let this happen.
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To close a previous discussion- whether or not nostalgia is a diagnosable medical condition,I’m aware that post colonial nostalgia has gone global.But let's keep in mind that the central purpose of European colonialism was to benefit and enrich Europeans.
---
A few days ago, I wrote, “Russia cannot lose; the US doesn’t want to lose”, or something like that. Realistic analysts like Mearsheimer are deeply hated, only God knows why. J.M. recently committed the ultimate heresy: an interview to a Chinese TV channel.
But I think it's s not difficult to agree with the diagnosis,"Both sides can’t win".
Neither can I. If everything continues in the same way, with the US sending war material to Ukraine day by day while the Russians are busy destroying it, soon or later the complete devastation of Ukraine is more than certain. The winners are: the war industry, lawmakers, etc.The Russia-Ukraine war is super profitable“There are a good number of people in the West who say...NATO presence in Ukraine does not threaten Russia’s survival.My response to them is: I don’t care what they think.The only thing that matters is what Vladimir Putin thinks.And if Putin and his lieutenants think it’s an existential threat,we ough to be very careful in dealing with him.Because he has thousands of nuclear weapons.I can only say that I don’t see how this comes to an end, and this is the reason. Russia cannot afford to lose. The United States,on the other hand, has decided that it is going to- number one- defeat Russia inside Ukraine. Furthermore, we’re gonna strangle Russia’s economy.
So we have a situation where Russia has to win, and the United States has to win.Both sides can’t win.What’s the solution? I don’t know.Peace is not in sight at all.And I would note to you that there are a number of people in the Unites States across the political spectrum,who believe that this war is going to go on for years. I cannot tell you a happy story about how this ends”
Neither Meirsheimer nor the Catholic Pope are Putinists, and both agree that US/ NATO "may have caused Russia's invasion of Ukraine, barking at Russia’s door” (Pope’s words). In an interview with the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera, the Pope said,According to Business Insider, At least 19 members of Congress personally invest in the defense contractors behind them.
federal lawmakers or their spouses hold stock in Raytheon Technologies and Lockheed Martin, which manufacture the weapons Western allies are sending Ukraine to fight Russian invaders
Now here’s the hypocrisy angle. U.S. lawmakers, who are earning big money out of the suffering and pounding of Ukraine are also the ones who will sermonise everyone around about how war is bad. They will be the loudest proponents of peace; while profiteering out of misery. They will pretend to hate Vladimir Putin, while filling their pockets because of his war in Ukraine.
“l’abbaiare della Nato alla porta della Russia” means “NATO's barking at Russia's door”.(...)Forse «l’abbaiare della Nato alla porta della Russia» ha indotto il capo del Cremlino a reagire male e a scatenare il conflitto.
According to the American Jesuit Review What critics of Pope Francis' NATO comments don't understand
It is said that in Oval Office meetings, Biden sometimes pulls from his pocket a string of rosary.A framed photo of Biden shaking hands with Pope Francis rests on the table over Biden’s left shoulder as he sits at the Resolute Desk in the Oval Office. In his speeches, he quotes from the Bible and invokes Catholic saints and philosophers.Joe Biden's Presidency Highlights Rifts in Catholic ChurchFrancis’ biggest offense, though, according to The Wall Street Journal’s editorial board, was speculating that NATO might share some responsibility for provoking aggression by, as the pope said, “barking at Russia’s gate.”
(This is not such an unusual view: The former U.S. ambassador to the Soviet Union Jack Matlock—among other diplomats, academic experts and independent journalists—has pointed out the West’s role in triggering Russian aggression, including the lethal strategy of inching NATO right up to the Russian border. The late U.S. diplomat George Kennan warned in 1997 that NATO expansion would be a “fateful error.”)
In Francis’ view, at the root of political conflict is always a clash of interests related to power. The godly position is remaining equidistant from all sides, which opens the door for constructive and self-giving diplomacy.Pope Francis has also been consistent. From the start of his pontificate, he has warned of arms proliferation and has said that nations are engaging in a third world war “piecemeal.” He directs this criticism at every nation on the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute’s list of big weapons sellers, in which the United States remains in the lead.
Francis...in “Evangelii Gaudium.” When looking at conflict, the pope explains, some people ignore it while others get sucked into it. But imagine a third way: Face the problem head-on and make it the start of a new process. As the pope reassures us, “Trust what God is doing through you.”
Now Pope Francis asks Catholics to pray a rosary for peace in Ukraine every day during the month of May. But what do I see? a few days ago, Biden credited the assembly line workers at a Javelin missile plant for doing lifesaving work (!!) in building Javelins.It seems that Biden’s rosary is now entirely composed of Javelins.Watch, San Francisco Museum of Modern Art.
I particularly “like” the Madonna of the Suicide Vest, the Madonna Kalashnikov, and The Madonna of the 40oz. In Ukraine,the new anti-Russian martial imagery is the picture of Mary Magdalene holding a Javelin as a divine tool of intervention.
Yesterday, on a television channel in my country, I heard a woman, a journalist commentator, very upset, asking for the immediate intervention of NATO forces on Ukrainian soil. She was asked if she was not afraid of a nuclear war, and the crazy woman said no.
To "win" the war, NATO has to be fully involved, which means a nuclear war. I ask you, is this what the European people really want? If is that so, please go ahead, and reserve a place for me in the western crusaders' paradise, with 40 Slavic virgins.
Thanks to Putin's colossal mistake in invading Ukraine, all this screaming that the Catholic Biden does now in the name of good versus evil, would not exist if he has been losing elections for a year and a half: with Trump reelected, Ukraine Ukraine would be left to its own devices. Framing the issue of the current war in terms of a fight of civilization against barbarism is nothing else but manipulation.
The US moral compass varies according to the majorities in Congress and on the Supreme Court and according to the occupant of the White House. But now, thanks to Putin, here in the West we are confronted with an offensive of the new crusaders for whom, lucky for them, everything has become crystal clear and anyone who does not see it is shot in the square with a roll call of new offenses: "anti-Americans," "illiberals," "Russophones," "dilettantes."
Putin's best friends, the Russian "oligarchs", were the best friends of the Tories and the English elite until two months ago, when Boris Johnson discovered in Putin a a new Stalin and in Zelensky a new Churchill.
I presume that so much Western fervor still has as its philosophical matrix the celebrated Judeo-Christian civilization.It's not mine. I’m a son of the Greco-Roman-Arab civilization, the one that was born and flourished in the Mediterranean,not the one of cathedrals, inquisition and terror.And now, suddenly, by the "new commandments", Russia is no longer synonymous with Europe and "world" in the strictu sensu of Western civilization - or even a mere civilization. And yet few cities today are as European, in every respect, as St. Petersburg. St Petersburg: Europe's Most Beautiful City
In my concept of civilization, St. Petersburg is hopelessly Western, genetically European, and even has something peculiarly Mediterranean about it. But it seems that now - paradoxically in line with Putin's ideas- Russia is no longer Europe and the West in our eyes.
Last edited by Ludicus; May 07, 2022 at 06:32 PM.
Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
Charles Péguy
Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
Thomas Piketty
Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future
Saying Saint petersburg represents Russia´s supposed western cultural belonging is like saying the chinese first tier cities (Shenzen, Shanghai, Guangzhou and Beijing) represent all of china, which is of course an illusion at best and a fallacy at worst. Saint Petersburg was born of the russian elites´s desire to be accepted into the european concert of nations at the height of the country´s infatuation with western and particulary french culture in the early 18th century, it was a city of the elite and intellectuals but it no more represented Russia than new york represents the US.
Russia´s true cultural roots lie elsewhere, in the brutality and opression of the duchy of moscow, itself the heir of the golden horde and by association the mongols. When the mongols had invaded and devastated the kievan rus, poland and Hungary the duchy of moscow was all too willing to surrender and act as the main vassal of the horde in the area, collecting tribute from lesser vassals and putting down every rebellion against their nomad masters. This authoritarian regime was the foundation of future russian states as in the mind of muscovite elites the vast territory they got at their independence from the horde in the late 15th century could only be ruled by fear, violence and the brutal opression of their subjects, through a brutal autocracy that would make the late medieval romans blush (pity the republic of novgorod fell, if that state had survived and attained hegemony, Russia´s society could have been really different). This brutal and thuggish state is what formed the basis of the russian empire and later the soviet union and we can see it in they way both entities treated their subjects or more accuretaly serfs. The Tsarists elites brutalized and enslaved the peasantry while the soviets were all to willing to starve them in the name of rapid industrialization.
We can still see, the results of such brutal foundation in the current invasion of Ukraine, with russian soldiers coming mostly from impoverished villas far from the big cities behaving like barbarians raping, torturing and looting like their ancestors did in 1945. This is the consequence of the insitutional barbarity the russian state exercises upon their citizens, especially those living dispersed in the countryside where their brutalization first through poverty and then through the army can be set aside because of the imposibility of political protest in such circumstances. So no, most of Russia is nothing like modern Europe where the rule of law, human rights, democratic participation and economic opportunity are still heavily defended and exercised through an empowered body of citizens. When Ukraine was leaning towards that path, despite their many difficulties (particularly state corruption) it was too much of a threat to Russia´s autocratic regime. Thats why assisting Ukraine and making sure it wins this illegal war of agression is the same as protecting a democratic Europe, should such endeavor fall the next victims will be the moldovans and the baltic states and then eastern europe. So, yes this is the beginning of an existential war for a modern democratic europe.
Even Jurgen Habermas recognizes on what side young europeans are: https://elpais.com/ideas/2022-05-07/...de-europa.html despite his pacifist perspective.
"On the other hand, the Western side, as the Russian side knows very well, cannot allow itself to be blackmailed at will because of this asymmetry. If he were to simply abandon Ukraine to its fate, it would not only be a political and moral scandal, but it would be against his own interests, since there is no doubt that he would then have to go back to playing same Russian roulette in the case of Georgia or Moldova, and who knows who would be next...Thus, the argument that Putin should not be cornered because, in that case, he would be capable of anything, is countered by the argument that precisely this "politics of fear" gives the adversary free rein to continue extending the conflict step by step. , as Ralf Fücks pointed out in Süddeutsche Zeitung.
....The example of young people educated in sensitivity to normative issues who do not hide their emotions and who have been the ones who have raised their voices the most demanding a greater commitment. It seems that the totally new reality of war has shaken them out of their pacifist illusions. It also reminds the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Annalena Baerbock, now an icon, which, as soon as the war began, gave authentic expression to the shock with credible gestures and confessional rhetoric."
Last edited by juanplay; May 07, 2022 at 07:54 PM.
Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future
This argument has been made a lot recently, but frankly it's a load of rubbish. Muscovy wasn't any different in this regard from any contemporary European kingdom, and the Russian Empire simply followed the pre-eminent European standard, that of Louis XIV's France.
The Russians are hardly unique in this; none of the above is any different from how armies on campaign have behaved since humans discovered how to beat each other with rocks.
Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future
western european societies of the late 18th century were very different from tsarist russia despite the autocratic outlook of the absolute monarchies which were balanced by the interests the burgeoise in cities and a good number of free peasants, Russia was not like this since most peasants were serfs, and not your average medieval serf which had some liberties but something more akin to living property.
This is the perfect example of russian propaganda, that is, propaganda not meant to be believed but to sow doubt in everything and make us thing everyone and everything is the same and thus there should be no room for criticism and resistance. The russians have behaved like barbarians, no modern western military goes around raping and looting the local populace, like the russians have done, stealing toilets, washing machines, computers, clothes, etc.. signs of the brutalization, poverty and ignorance in which their populace has been subjected, particularly those of the countryside and central asia.
Last edited by juanplay; May 07, 2022 at 08:51 PM.
Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future
I don't think journals have genetics, but the key term here is "sounds like". The arguments are as weak as Bush II's Iraq invasion lies, and I will say it again it sounds like Neocon garbage.
Waffle about "NATO expanding in alliance with Ukrainian nationalism" is vague to the point of deceit.
NATO is not allied to "Ukrainian nationalism" which is not a military entity, its a strawman. Nor is NATO allied with Ukraine.
Its not war for Ukraine to assert it is the lawful state power in Donbas, and it is war for Russia to invade there.
Blair's UK was not allied to Putin's Russia, and a mild statement of approval of his cruel campaign there does not automatically require all western leaders to recognise Russian sovereignty in Ukraine, opr pretend a war of conquest is actually a police action.
You present one snippet and it was studded with lazy imprecise language, CNN/FOX tier garbage. Why would I bother with the rest?
If you are keen for a negotiated settlement good on you, but Putin does not seem to share your view. He disregards Ukrainian sovereignty to the extent he won't even admit the war is a war. Currently there's no basis for negotiation. Bear that in mind, by present norms and even by the post Westphalian international law, this is little more than terrorism and brigandage.
The West isn't even fighting but you're pressing them to "not be hypocrites and cut a deal". They don't need to make a deal, Russia and Ukraine do. To repeat what is a pretty obvious point, there has to be a war for there to be a surrender, and Russia says this isn't a war.
Zelensky is literally fighting for his life as are most of his regime, and there has been no basis for negotiation from Russia beyond hypocritical rhetoric like "denazification". From the Ukrainian PoV, if they treat Putin as something other than a brigand (remember its an undeclared war, under international law its unlawful, and the Ukraine has correctly termed it terrorism) it confirms that when it comes to Kyiv, Russia will get its way by killing civilians. The process begun in 2014 will likely continue: why wouldn't it? A Ukrainian surrender would prove the strategy works. Donbas, Crimea, no doubt some Russians can be found in Poland and the Baltic States too.
If Ukraine continues to fight as a Western proxy they can hurt Russia so badly it does not come back. It worked for Finland, in WWII they hurt the Russian dominated Soviet army so badly it never came back. It worked for Poland too, they burned Tukhachevsky's advance and the Soviets declined to invade until the Nazis did the work for them. Surrender seems to guarantee further salami tactics, stubborn resistance may cause more deaths now but may secure the Eastern border for decades.
You can't blame Ukraine for fighting. You can't blame the EU and US for backing a Russian opponents when the clear Russian agenda is territorial expansion at the expense of its neighbours. To blame NATO for civilian deaths in Ukraine (as some Putin apologists appear to be doing) is dishonest moral gymnastics, this is Russia's war, and they don't even admit its a war.
One last time, a war not authorised by the UN, and without a declaration, is beyond the norms of modern civilised society. Putin is little more than a brigand or terrorist. If the West can help Ukraine destroy his army it makes Ukraine (and the other Russian neighbours) safer.
If you want to bang on about the US in the 1950's or 20 years ago please do in the appropriate thread.
Jatte lambastes Calico Rat
Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future
That was true of peasants in most parts of Eastern Europe though. Serfdom was abolished in most areas, including Russia, during the 19th century.
That's probably because there haven't been any large-scale wars in Europe since 1945 more than anything else. All of the above has certainly occurred in conflicts like Korea and Vietnam or in the Middle East.
Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future
Mind sharing pictures or reports of americans stealing toilets in Iraq?
Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future
Not by Americans; why would they bother? I more meant in conflicts between local countries or civil wars.
Looting only happens if there's anything worth taking. Which, for Americans, there isn't in most places.
Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future
I don't want to break up a beautiful conversation, and I don't know if I favour either of your positions, but a great quantity of the antiquities of Iraq were (sometimes randomly and somtimes systematically) looted around the time of the invasion.
However the US has made some effort at restitution.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/...ddam%20Hussein.
Jatte lambastes Calico Rat
hoi polloi
Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future
They all had temples and terror as well...It's not mine. I’m a son of the Greco-Roman-Arab civilization, the one that was born and flourished in the Mediterranean,not the one of cathedrals, inquisition and terror.
IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites
'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'
But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.
Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.
hoi polloi
Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future
I am proud of the US for hunting the looted items one most just vanish to the wealthy. Rather not proud that the US did a fantastically bad of occupation that allowed the looting to happen. Would not not mind a lot US officials to be tried for gross negligence and ineptitude. Its one thing to play at great power another to do it so badly you damage your country. At least Russian generals have the decency to die at the Putin's front Paul Bremer should have as well.
Last edited by conon394; May 08, 2022 at 12:43 PM.
IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites
'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'
But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.
Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.
Tiro
Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future
Ukrainian here.
Escaped Kherson region after having spent one and a half month under Russian occupation.
Ask me anything.
"Orcs were mustering, and far to the east and the south the wild peoples were arming."
J.R.R.Tolkien.
Wyrd bið ful aræd!
Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future
How much control do the Russian have over the city?
The Armenian Issuehttp://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930
GTA 6 Thread
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?819300-GTA-6-Reveal-Trailer
"We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."
Tiro
Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future
Full control.
Basically, Russian flags everywhere. I doubt any Ukrainian flags left.
"Orcs were mustering, and far to the east and the south the wild peoples were arming."
J.R.R.Tolkien.
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