View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    104 69.33%
  • I support Russia fully.

    16 10.67%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.67%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.33%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.67%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.33%
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Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #241
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Russia will not invade Ukraine.Russia’s invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 became what Gorbachev dubbed "a bleeding wound" (for Russia and America).Putin wants to force the US to sit down for negotiations on issues of European security (*)as simple as that. The American machine of war has recently left Afghanistan, and now they are urging European countries to go to war with Russia, which is conveniently far away from American borders. It is amusing and annoying at the same time.

    (*) Edit.Its an old story,
    Russia's EU ambassador made clear that Russia still saw NATO's eastern expansion as a key point in any negotiation.
    We are not going to forget it. And we cannot afford to forget it. Five waves of NATO expansion, that was not the evolution that we expected
    It's an old story.1993,Yeltsin Opposes Expansion Of NATO in Eastern Europe -New York Times
    Here is the letter, Retranslation of Yeltsin letter on NATO expansion

    Date
    Sep 15, 1993
    Description
    This letter is written soon after Yeltsin returns from Poland, where he agreed with President Lech Walesa that Poland had a right to join NATO, which was reflected in a communiqué and press conference on August 25.[13] There is some ambiguity as to the conditions under which Yeltsin made such a statement, but Walesa told U.S. officials later that he had written documents signed by Yeltsin that confirmed his words. According to Yeltsin, however, he only expressed “understanding” as part of reaffirming his commitment to the provisions of the Helsinki Final Act, which stipulated that every country was free to make choices regarding politico-military alliances.
    This Yeltsin letter to Clinton lays out Yeltsin’s strong stance against rapid expansion and his concern about NATO’s apparent path of geographical and numerical expansion rather than transformation into a political organization. Russian leaders, based on their understanding about the post-Cold War settlement in Europe, were eager to be integrated into a pan-European security system. The letter defines the Russian position clearly: “Security must be indivisible and must be based on pan-European security structure.” The letter cites the security assurances that the Russians thought they received during the negotiations on German unification: “the spirit of the treaty on the final settlement … precludes the option of expanding the NATO zone into the East.” Acknowledging legitimate security concerns of East Europeans, Yeltsin suggests that there are other options to satisfy their concerns short of joining NATO such as “official security guarantees to the East European states with an accent on ensuring sovereignty, territorial integrity, inviolability of borders and maintenance of peace in the region.”
    Source
    U.S. Department of State. Case No. M-2006-01499
    Last edited by Ludicus; February 09, 2022 at 09:46 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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  2. #242

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Russia will not invade Ukraine.Russia’s invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 became what Gorbachev dubbed "a bleeding wound" (for Russia and America).Putin wants to force the US to sit down for negotiations on issues of European security (*)as simple as that. The American machine of war has recently left Afghanistan, and now they are urging European countries to go to war with Russia, which is conveniently far away from American borders. It is amusing and annoying at the same time.
    Russian demands are a non-starter. There is also no consensus within NATO about how to deal with Russia. This is why punitive actions are primarily US-led. Ukraine will be attacked, and Russia will turn to maximalist aims (regime change, Balkanization, etc), primarily because diplomacy has yielded no tangible results for Russia. These actions will obviously have significant costs, but the cost of letting the security situation get continually worse are perceived to be greater.

  3. #243
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    Russian demands are a non-starter
    My dear Love Mountain, go wake up John Kennedy from his eternal sleep and tell him that.The US is the hegemonic power (for now), but Russia is clearly a great power,and all great powers need or demand a geographic area around them that does not belong to an opposing coalition. Call it a buffer zone.Even the Israeli military said it needs the "buffer zone". Russia says it may be forced to deploy mid-range nuclear in Europe

    Ryabkov said Russia would be forced to act if the West declined to join it in a moratorium on intermediate-range nuclear forces (INF) in Europe - part of a package of security guarantees it is seeking as the price for defusing the crisis over Ukraine.

    If NATO is right that Russia has already deployed this system in the European part of the country, west of the Ural Mountains, then Ryabkov's threat is an empty one, according to Gerhard Mangott, an expert on Russian foreign policy and arms control at the University of Innsbruck in Austria.

    But if Russia's denials are true, he said, then Moscow's warning is "the final signal to NATO that it should enter into talks with Russia about a freeze-freeze agreement."

    He added: "If NATO sticks with the position not to negotiate about a deal, then we will certainly see Russia deploy the Screwdriver missile at its very western border."
    I hope common sense will prevail.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; February 09, 2022 at 11:31 PM. Reason: Off-topic part removed
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  4. #244

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    My dear Love Mountain, go wake up John Kennedy from his eternal sleep and tell him that.The US is the hegemonic power (for now), but Russia is clearly a great power,and all great powers need or demand a geographic area around them that does not belong to an opposing coalition. Call it a buffer zone.Even the Israeli military said it needs the "buffer zone". [URL="https://www.reuters.com/world/russia-says-lack-nato-security-guarantees-would-lead-confrontation-ria-2021-12-13/"]Russia says it may be forced to deploy mid-range nuclear in Europe
    I'm aware of what Russia wants. I'm just simply telling you, those demands are a non-starter. There is nothing for NATO and Russia to realistically discuss because what Russia wants is not something NATO is willing to give. They've already lost enough face over this, they're not going to back down more. Since diplomatic efforts have and will not yield any more efforts, Russia will attack Ukraine to achieve their immediate aims.

    I hope common sense will prevail.
    Ryabkov isn't being genuine. Washington is unlikely to agree to a new INF treaty because an INF treaty is inherently disadvantageous to U.S. And NATO will never entertain changing its Open Door policy again. It's a diplomatic tool and a useful cudgel against Russia. This status quo was pretty much cemented during the 2002 NATO Summit in Prague. Entertaining changes to a 20 year old policy that has effectively surrounded Russia is unlikely.

  5. #245
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    It's a diplomatic tool and a useful cudgel against Russia. This status quo was pretty much cemented during the 2002 NATO Summit in Prague. Entertaining changes to a 20 year old policy that has effectively surrounded Russia is unlikely.
    There is one thing that might bring Russia to its knees: Exclude them from the SWIFT-System. This was applied for a time on Iran before. I think think this would hurt them critically.

  6. #246

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Obama already tried to exclude Russia from SWIFT and it was SWIFT that refused to do so, kinda humiliating America's position as "global leader" or whatever.
    Having said that, Russians created their own backup already, SPFS.

  7. #247
    bitterhowl's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Russia wants to continue trading it's gas and oil. But seems that US wants to remove Russia from EU markets and it's the only reason of current crisis. As well as Middle Eastern case in 1990-s/2000-s was tend to oil deals.

    Project "Ukraine" is a very vise measure made by US. At the time of Cold War it was useful against USSR and after that it was dedicated to terrify Russian Gas Transporting System (GTS), you easily can find sources about Russian-Ukrainian Gas Wars started at 1992.

    At Yeltsin's time Russia was directly ruled from aboard. After that Russian elites was western oriented and wanted to became a respective part of Western world, but they got rejected as Banana Republic. Idk what happened in their mind but then was Munich's Speach at 2007. All things that happen now are just consequences.

    Seems that all things go worsening and the analytical skills in US specialists too. They definitely underestimated Russia when decided to reject it in 2000-s. Russia has weak economy and social development, but it never had it during history. And it's not a colony yet.

    Another thing is vision of social situation from abroad. I was in UAE when Nemtsov was murdered, I saw Al Jazeera and Euronews there and it was really funny seeing three angry women saying it's a big harm and all the same things. I don't think I'm revealing a great secret - most of people are not interested in politics and they remember who was all those newcomers opposition leaders in 1990-s. Same thing about Putin - most of people have no deal to politics, they have to work and survive and pay their credits, they have no time to love/hate him. Everybody are tired of neverending talking about Ukraine. No "small war" could influence on people's moods. Nobody wants no war now here.
    But after years of sanctions if it will be war - it will be war. Most of people are also tired of countless lies about Russia and hypocrisy of Western commonwealth.

    My sister, do you still recall the blue Hasan and Khalkhin-Gol?
    Russian warship is winning. Proofs needed? Go find yourself!

  8. #248

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=sBIjVIgAcfc

    Some interesting takeaways:

    It’s possible or even probable Putin himself doesn’t have a specific plan for how this is going to play out. What we do know based on past experience is he will continue to sow as much confusion as possible to prevent a unified, planned response from NATO, allowing him space and time to maneuver in the grey areas.

    Even if Putin is bluffing, the necessity to ratchet up tensions to maintain the bluff means the threat becomes increasingly serious by default, regardless of what he might have intended initially. Whatever happens, he can’t afford to be seen as weak.

    Western focus is virtually monopolized by China, Covid and climate change. In order for Russia to have its own global relevance and bargaining capacity as a great power, Moscow must assert itself if its interests are to avoid becoming an afterthought internationally. For my part, I think it’s a profound strategic failure that US policy toward Russia post-Cold War has remained focused on categorically negating that assertiveness, rather than using it as a bargaining chip. As a Eurasian power, Russia will remain a fundamentally paranoid and insecure state unless it controls the geographic access points to the Russian interior, as the Soviets once did.

    Interdependence is leverage. There’s an argument based on Hill’s direct experience that the Kremlin actually resented Trump’s attempts to downplay and dismiss Russian threats, cyberattacks, etc, precisely because his attitude blunted the intended effect of forcing western powers to the negotiating table. This may have played into Putin’s belief that only maximalist, high stakes demands will accomplish that.

    The nature of American politics makes us vulnerable to Putins of our own, because virtually anyone with sufficient resources can run for president regardless of political party. Hill meant this as a parliamentarian critique of the US system but I took it as a complement. Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction, but that’s what makes it special.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; February 11, 2022 at 11:21 AM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  9. #249
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    It’s interesting to note that it is easier to belong to NATO than to the EU.Ask Turkey. Ukraine, better than anyone, understands it isn’t joining European Union anytime soon. The EU is also internally divided in its attitude toward Russia.And let’s face it, the state satellites of the US (there is no Nato without the US) are "supposed" to be democratic, but history teaches that any non democratic regime can belong to NATO. How to Deal with Authoritarianism Inside NATO

    NATO allies are ostensibly bound by a shared belief in “democracy, individual liberty, and the rule of law.” But what happens when an ally shuns those principles and takes up the mantle of illiberalism or even authoritarianism?
    What happens? It’s a rhetorical question.
    More,
    Amid a debate within the Johnson administration over how to handle the Greek junta, then-National Security Advisor Walt Rostow argued:“The time has come to separate our NATO relationship from our disapproval of domestic Greek politics”
    Domestic policies” he said.The Greek Junta is a case study of southern European dictatorships.The colonels at the head of this brutal regime ended up putting the country in shackles for seven years.
    More,
    The June 1971 meeting of NATO foreign ministers in Lisbon ... allies in the values-first camp geared up to openly confront their Portuguese and Greek counterparts. Despite appeals to reconsider by Washington and others, Norway’s foreign minister offered a strong rebuke of the Portuguese and Greek regimes. In the end, Norway’s position...served only to isolate Norway.
    The episode elicited a firm chiding from NATO Secretary General Brosio:
    “the discussion which took place tonight..useless,futile and dangerous for the alliance
    Off course, futile. God bless authoritarian allies.The writer ends with a surreal lament,
    “NATO lacks a robust toolset for managing allied dictatorships”
    ---
    I'm a conflict mediator. This is a way out of the Ukraine crisis
    Gabrielle Rifkind is a specialist in conflict resolution and the director of Oxford Process

    The current western narrative on the Ukraine crisis is that Russia is a machiavellian power with an expansionist agenda.
    When the USSR deployed ballistic missiles to Cuba in the 1960s, their proximity to the US nearly unleashed a third world war. Sitting in Moscow today, does Putin see being encircled by Nato as an equivalent threat?
    After all, one of his core demands is that Nato curbs its expansion close to the Russian border, and that Ukraine must not join. Russia claims that the US repeatedly told Soviet leaders it would incorporate Russia into a cooperative European security framework.
    In practice, Nato emerged as a US-dominated security frame with about 75,000 US troops still on European soil. Great powers always treat with suspicion and hostility the presence of rival great powers on their borders.
    According to Anatol Lieven, an academic and Ukraine specialist, this is “the most dangerous crisis in the world today; it is also in principle the most easily solved”.
    A solution exists, drawn up by France, Germany, Russia and Ukraine in 2015, which involves the implementation of the Minsk II agreement.
    Anatol Lieven. Read the full article.Ukraine
    Brief excerpt,
    Since the Ukrainian revolution and the Donbas rebellion of 2014, successive Ukrainian governments have vowed to recover the Donbas—by force if necessary. Successive US administrations have expressed strong support for the Ukrainian side and for future NATO membership (so far blocked by Germany and France), though they have stopped short of promising to defend Ukraine militarily.
    The Minsk II Protocol was endorsed unanimously by the UN Security Council, including the United States. Samantha Power, then US ambassador to the United Nations, told the Security Council in June 2015, “The consensus here, and in the international community, remains that Minsk’s implementation is the only way out of this deadly conflict.” Both subsequent US administrations have officially supported the Minsk II Protocol. Yet the settlement envisioned by Minsk II has not come to pass. No political agreement on autonomy for the Donbas has been reached, Ukrainian sovereignty has not been restored, separatist forces have not disarmed, and Russian “volunteers” have not withdrawn...Finally, and most important, repeated opinion polls in the Donbas and (before 2014) free elections there indicated that many of its inhabitants favored autonomy for the region within Ukraine and that equally large majorities in eastern and southern Ukraine favored a multi-ethnic state with official status for the Russian language and culture, not the ethnic-nationalist state promoted since 2014 by a succession of Ukrainian governments backed by the West.

    The argument that Ukraine constitutes a US asset in the event of Russian aggression against the West is illogical and dangerous. First, the only really serious threat of military conflict with Russia is precisely over the disputed territories in Ukraine. Second, it is NATO, of which Ukraine is not a member, that exists to deter and repel any Russian attempt to dominate Europe—something that in any case is extremely unlikely, given both the comparative size of the Russian and EU economies and the lack of any evidence of such a Russian ambition.


    As simple as that.
    Last edited by Ludicus; February 11, 2022 at 11:22 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  10. #250
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post


    As simple as that.
    Wait... what?

    You're going to accept an invasion created status quo?

    The Minsk agreements were only ever a stop-gap until something better could be worked out.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  11. #251

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    You're going to accept an invasion created status quo?
    As opposed to communist dictatorship-created status-quo that was before it?
    I'm still not sure why should post-soviet bordergore be viewed as sacred boundaries that can't be touched, especially since it changed so much in past decades.
    If you don't want to accept invasion-created status-quo, then you want a plebiscite-created status-quo.
    Last edited by Heathen Hammer; February 11, 2022 at 05:43 PM. Reason: typos, of course

  12. #252
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    As opposed to communist dictatorship-created status-quo that was before it?
    I'm still not sure why should post-soviet bordergore be viewed as sacred boundaries that can't be touched, especially since it changed so much in past decades.
    If you don't want to accept invasion-created status-quo, then you want a plebiscite-created status-quo.
    We shouldn't accept any status quo enforced by coercion through military intervention. The people inside any country should be able to choose their own government. They shouldn't have that choice made through foreign occupation. You and I should be able to agree on this point - whether that foreign invader be the figurehead of the Russian Oligarchy, or the figurehead of the US corporatocracy.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  13. #253

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    There is one thing that might bring Russia to its knees: Exclude them from the SWIFT-System. This was applied for a time on Iran before. I think think this would hurt them critically.

    Agreed, and we should go even further. We should freeze the money and seize the properties Putin and his cronies have stashed in the West.

    As for any ideas that the US has treated Russia badly or unfairly, such statements are laughably at odds with reality. Following the collapse of the USSR, Russia was treated exceptionally well by the West, even better than other former USSR countries. It was allowed to keep its nuclear weapons. It inherited the USSR’s seat in the UN Security Council - a position it has repeatedly abused in the recent years to, among other things, block establishment of an MH17 tribunal. It was provided with financial aid when its economy cratered, and military aid when it's first democratically elected President, Boris Yeltsin, faced an armed uprising. When Yeltsin objected to the US-led intervention in Serbia, the United States welcomed Russia to join international peacekeeping efforts in Kosovo. Russia was even invited to join the G8, despite being grossly under-qualified for this club.

    Now ask yourselves, would Russia have been as kind to the West (and to America in particular) if it won the cold war and we had been in their shoes?

    Unfortunately it has become clear that Russia saw all of this not as an invitation to re-join the civilized world, but as a sign of weakness from the West.

  14. #254

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    We shouldn't accept any status quo enforced by coercion through military intervention. The people inside any country should be able to choose their own government. They shouldn't have that choice made through foreign occupation. You and I should be able to agree on this point - whether that foreign invader be the figurehead of the Russian Oligarchy, or the figurehead of the US corporatocracy.
    Ukrainian borders pre-2014 were literally status quo enforced by Soviet totalitarian dictatorship.
    If we go by your logic, that people should have self-determination, then its a two-way street and Russian "separatists" have as much validity as Ukrainian ultranationalists.
    Peaceful divorce (like breakup of Czechoslovakia) was only possible with mutual agreement, while Kiev would never permit it.
    So while I like the idea of self-determination in theory, in reality Might is Right, so no matter how you look at it, if such plebiscite was to happen, it would have to happen against the wishes of the current regime in Kiev.
    For the record, I also think that Russia keeping Chechnya as its region was a mistake.

  15. #255
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I invite you all to attentively read,

    NATO Expansion. “ a policy error of historic importance” Micheal MaccGwire, Review of International Studies, 1998,24, 23-42

    In a open letter to President Bill Clinton at the end of June 1997, fifty former US senators, cabinet secretaries and ambassadors, as well as US arms control and foreign policy specialists, stated their belief that the “current US-led effort to expand NATO...is a policy error of historical importance”, for the following reasons:

    (i)In Russia, it would bring into question the entire post-Cold War settlement, undercut those who favoured reform and cooperation with the West, galvanize in the Duma to START II and III, and strengthen the non democratic opposition: NATO expansion continued to be opposed across the whole political spectrum in Russia

    (ii)In Europe, it will draw a line between the “ins” and the “outs”,foster instability, and ultimately diminish the sense of security of those not included
    The Strategic Blunder That Led to Today's Conflict in Ukraine

    ...a narrow perspective deflects attention from an American strategic blunder that dates to the 1990s and is still reverberating.
    During that decade, Russia was on its knees. Its economy had shrunk by nearly 40 percent, while unemployment was surging and inflation skyrocketing. (It reached a monumental 86 percent in 1999.)

    The Russian military was a mess. Instead of seizing the opportunity to create a new European order that included Russia, President Bill Clinton and his foreign-policy team squandered it by deciding to expand NATO threateningly toward that country’s borders. Such a misbegotten policy guaranteed that Europe would once again be divided, even as Washington created a new order that excluded and progressively alienated post-Soviet Russia. The Russians were perplexed—as well they should have been.
    At the time, Clinton and company were hailing Russian President Boris Yeltsin as a democrat.

    They praised him for launching a “transition” to a market economy, which, as Nobel Laureate Svetlana Alexievich so poignantly laid out in her book Second Hand Time, would plunge millions of Russians into penury by “decontrolling” prices and slashing state-provided social services.

    Why, Russians wondered, would Washington obsessively push a Cold War NATO alliance ever closer to their borders, knowing that a reeling Russia was in no position to endanger any European country?

    Unfortunately, those who ran or influenced American foreign policy found no time to ponder such an obvious question. After all, there was a world out there for the planet’s sole superpower to lead and, if the United States wasted time on introspection, “the jungle,” as the influential neoconservative thinker Robert Kagan put it, would grow back and the world would be “imperiled.”

    The expansion of NATO was an early manifestation of this millenarian mindset, something theologian Reinhold Niebuhr had warned about in his classic book, The Irony of American History. But who in Washington was paying attention, when the world’s fate and the future were being designed by us, and only us, in what Washington Post neoconservative columnist Charles Krauthammer celebrated in 1990 as the ultimate “unipolar moment”—one in which, for the first time ever, the United States would possess peerless power?

    Still, why use that opportunity to expand NATO, which had been created in 1949 to deter the Soviet-led Warsaw Pact from rolling into Western Europe, given that both the Soviet Union and its alliance were now gone? Wasn’t it akin to breathing life into a mummy?
    To that question, the architects of NATO expansion had stock answers, which their latter-day disciples still recite. The newly born post-Soviet democracies of Eastern and Central Europe, as well as other parts of the continent, could be “consolidated” by the stability that only NATO would provide once it inducted them into its ranks. Precisely how a military alliance was supposed to promote democracy was, of course, never explained, especially given a record of American global alliances that had included the likes of Philippine strongman Ferdinand Marcos, Greece under the colonels, and military-ruled Turkey.

    And, of course, if the denizens of the former Soviet Union now wanted to join the club, how could they rightly be denied? It hardly mattered that Clinton and his foreign policy team hadn’t devised the idea in response to a raging demand for it in that part of the world. Quite the opposite, consider it the strategic analog to Say’s Law in economics: They designed a product and the demand followed.

    Furthermore, given the support NATO had acquired over the course of a generation in Washington’s national security and defense industry ecosystem, the idea of mothballing it was unthinkable, since it was seen as essential for continued American global leadership. Serving as a protector par excellence provided the United States with enormous influence in the world’s premier centers of economic power of that moment. And officials, think-tankers, academics, and journalists—all of whom exercised far more influence over foreign policy and cared much more about it than the rest of the population—found it flattering to be received in such places as a representative of the world’s leading power.

    Under the circumstances, Yeltsin’s objections to NATO pushing east (despite verbal promises made to the last head of the Soviet Union, Mikhail Gorbachev, not to do so) could easily be ignored. After all, Russia was too weak to matter. And in those final Cold War moments, no one even imagined such NATO expansion. So, betrayal? Perish the thought! No matter that Gorbachev steadfastly denounced such moves and did so again this past December.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin is now pushing back, hard. Having transformed the Russian army into a formidable force, he has the muscle Yeltsin lacked. But the consensus inside the Washington Beltway remains that his complaints about NATO’s expansion are nothing but a ruse meant to hide his real concern: a democratic Ukraine. It’s an interpretation that conveniently absolves the United States. of any responsibility for ongoing events. Today, in Washington, it doesn’t matter that Moscow’s objections long preceded Putin’s election as president in 2000 or that, once upon a time, it wasn’t just Russian leaders who didn’t like the idea. In the 1990s, several prominent Americans opposed it and they were anything but leftists.

    Among them were members of the establishment with impeccable Cold War credentials: George Kennan, the father of the containment doctrine; Paul Nitze, a hawk who served in the Reagan administration; the Harvard historian of Russia Richard Pipes, another hardliner; Senator Sam Nunn, one of the most influential voices on national security in Congress; Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, a one-time US ambassador to the United Nations; and Robert McNamara, Lyndon Johnson’s Secretary of Defense. Their warnings were all remarkably similar: NATO’s expansion would poison relations with Russia, while helping to foster within it authoritarian and nationalist forces.

    The Clinton administration was fully aware of Russia’s opposition. In October 1993, for example, James Collins, the chargé d’affaires at the US embassy in Russia, sent a cable to Secretary of State Warren Christopher, just as he was about to travel to Moscow to meet Yeltsin, warning him that NATO’s enlargement was “neuralgic to Russians” because, in their eyes, it would divide Europe and shut them out. He warned that the alliance’s extension into Central and Eastern Europe would be “universally interpreted in Moscow as directed at Russia and Russia alone” and so regarded as “neo-containment.”

    That same year, Yeltsin would send a letter to Clinton (and the leaders of the United Kingdom, France, and Germany) fiercely opposing NATO expansion if it meant admitting former Soviet states while excluding Russia. That would, he predicted, actually “undermine Europe’s security.” The following year, he clashed publicly with Clinton, warning that such expansion would “sow the seeds of mistrust” and “plunge post-Cold War Europe into a cold peace.” The American president dismissed his objections: The decision to offer former parts of the Soviet Union membership in the alliance’s first wave of expansion in 1999 had already been taken.

    The alliance’s defenders now claim that Russia accepted it by signing the 1997 NATO-Russia Founding Act. But Moscow really had no choice, being dependent then on billions of dollars in International Monetary Fund loans (possible only with the approval of the United States, that organization’s most influential member). So, it made a virtue of necessity. That document, it’s true, does highlight democracy and respect for the territorial integrity of European countries, principles Putin has done anything but uphold. Still, it also refers to “inclusive” security across “the Euro-Atlantic area” and “joint decision-making,” words that hardly describe NATO’s decision to expand from 16 countries at the height of the Cold War to 30 today.
    By the time NATO held a summit in Romania’s capital, Bucharest, in 2008, the Baltic states had become members and the revamped alliance had indeed reached Russia’s border. Yet the post-summit statement praised Ukraine’s and Georgia’s “aspirations for membership,” adding “we agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.” President George W. Bush’s administration couldn’t possibly have believed Moscow would take Ukraine’s entry into the alliance lying down. The American ambassador to Russia, William Burns—now the head of the CIA—had warned in a cable two months earlier that Russia’s leaders regarded that possibility as a grave threat to their security.

    That cable, now publicly available, all but foresaw a train wreck like the one we’re now witnessing.
    Burns, Cable.

    MOSCOW 182 Classified By: Ambassador William J. Burns. Reasons 1.4 (b) and (d).


    1. (C) Summary. Following a muted first reaction to Ukraine's intent to seek a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) at the Bucharest summit (ref A), Foreign Minister Lavrov and other senior officials have reiterated strong opposition, stressing that Russia would view further eastward expansion as a potential military threat. NATO enlargement, particularly to Ukraine, remains "an emotional and neuralgic" issue for Russia, but strategic policy considerations also underlie strong opposition to NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia. In Ukraine, these include fears that the issue could potentially split the country in two, leading to violence or even, some claim, civil war, which would force Russia to decide whether to intervene. Additionally, the GOR and experts continue to claim that Ukrainian NATO membership would have a major impact on Russia's defense industry, Russian-Ukrainian family connections, and bilateral relations generally. In Georgia, the GOR fears continued instability and "provocative acts" in the separatist regions. End summary.



    MFA: NATO Enlargement "Potential Military Threat to Russia"
    --------------------------------------------- --

    2. (U) During his annual review of Russia's foreign policy January 22-23 (ref B), Foreign Minister Lavrov stressed that Russia had to view continued eastward expansion of NATO, particularly to Ukraine and Georgia, as a potential military threat. While Russia might believe statements from the West that NATO was not directed against Russia, when one looked at recent military activities in NATO countries (establishment of U.S. forward operating locations, etc. they had to be evaluated not by stated intentions but by potential. Lavrov stressed that maintaining Russia's "sphere of influence" in the neighborhood was anachronistic, and acknowledged that the U.S. and Europe had "legitimate interests" in the region. But, he argued, while countries were free to make their own decisions about their security and which political-military structures to join, they needed to keep in mind the impact on their neighbors.

    3. (U) Lavrov emphasized that Russia was convinced that enlargement was not based on security reasons, but was a legacy of the Cold War. He disputed arguments that NATO was an appropriate mechanism for helping to strengthen democratic governments. He said that Russia understood that NATO was in search of a new mission, but there was a growing tendency for new members to do and say whatever they wanted simply because they were under the NATO umbrella (e.g. attempts of some new member countries to "rewrite history and glorify fascists").

    4. (U) During a press briefing January 22 in response to a question about Ukraine's request for a MAP, the MFA said "a radical new expansion of NATO may bring about a serious political-military shift that will inevitably affect the security interests of Russia." The spokesman went on to stress that Russia was bound with Ukraine by bilateral obligations set forth in the 1997 Treaty on Friendship, Cooperation and Partnership in which both parties undertook to "refrain from participation in or support of any actions capable of prejudicing the security of the other Side." The spokesman noted that Ukraine's "likely integration into NATO would seriously complicate the many-sided Russian-Ukrainian relations," and that Russia would "have to take appropriate measures." The spokesman added that "one has the impression that the present Ukrainian leadership regards rapprochement with NATO largely as an alternative to good-neighborly ties with the Russian Federation."

    Russian Opposition Neuralgic and Concrete
    -----------------------------------------

    5. (C) Ukraine and Georgia's NATO aspirations not only touch a raw nerve in Russia, they engender serious concerns about the consequences for stability in the region. Not only does Russia perceive encirclement, and efforts to undermine Russia's influence in the region, but it also fears unpredictable and uncontrolled consequences which would seriously affect Russian security interests. Experts tell us that Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene; a decision Russia does not want to have to face.

    6. (C) Dmitriy Trenin, Deputy Director of the Carnegie Moscow Center, expressed concern that Ukraine was, in the long-term, the most potentially destabilizing factor in U.S.-Russian relations, given the level of emotion and neuralgia triggered by its quest for NATO membership. The letter requesting MAP consideration had come as a "bad surprise" to Russian officials, who calculated that Ukraine's NATO aspirations were safely on the backburner. With its public letter, the issue had been "sharpened." Because membership remained divisive in Ukrainian domestic politics, it created an opening for Russian intervention. Trenin expressed concern that elements within the Russian establishment would be encouraged to meddle, stimulating U.S. overt encouragement of opposing political forces, and leaving the U.S. and Russia in a classic confrontational posture. The irony, Trenin professed, was that Ukraine's membership would defang NATO, but neither the Russian public nor elite opinion was ready for that argument. Ukraine's gradual shift towards the West was one thing, its preemptive status as a de jure U.S. military ally another. Trenin cautioned strongly against letting an internal Ukrainian fight for power, where MAP was merely a lever in domestic politics, further complicate U.S.-Russian relations now.

    7. (C) Another issue driving Russian opposition to Ukrainian membership is the significant defense industry cooperation the two countries share, including a number of plants where Russian weapons are made. While efforts are underway to shut down or move most of these plants to Russia, and to move the Black Sea fleet from Sevastopol to Novorossiysk earlier than the 2017 deadline, the GOR has made clear that Ukraine's joining NATO would require Russia to make major (costly) changes to its defense industrial cooperation.

    8. (C) Similarly, the GOR and experts note that there would also be a significant impact on Russian-Ukrainian economic and labor relations, including the effect on thousands of Ukrainians living and working in Russia and vice versa, due to the necessity of imposing a new visa regime. This, Aleksandr Konovalov, Director of the Institute for Strategic Assessment, argued, would become a boiling cauldron of anger and resentment among the local population.


    9. (C) With respect to Georgia, most experts said that while not as neuralgic to Russia as Ukraine, the GOR viewed the situation there as too unstable to withstand the divisiveness NATO membership could cause. Aleksey Arbatov, Deputy Director of the Carnegie Moscow Center, argued that Georgia's NATO aspirations were simply a way to solve its problems in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and warned that Russia would be put in a difficult situation were that to ensue.

    Russia's Response
    -----------------

    10. (C) The GOR has made it clear that it would have to "seriously review" its entire relationship with Ukraine and Georgia in the event of NATO inviting them to join. This could include major impacts on energy, economic, and political-military engagement, with possible repercussions throughout the region and into Central and Western Europe. Russia would also likely revisit its own relationship with the Alliance and activities in the NATO-Russia Council, and consider further actions in the arms control arena, including the possibility of complete withdrawal from the CFE and INF Treaties, and more direct threats against U.S. missile defense plans.

    11. (C) Isabelle Francois, Director of the NATO Information Office in Moscow (protect), said she believed that Russia had accepted that Ukraine and Georgia would eventually join NATO and was engaged in long-term planning to reconfigure its relations with both countries, and with the Alliance. However, Russia was not yet ready to deal with the consequences of further NATO enlargement to its south. She added that while Russia liked the cooperation with NATO in the NATO-Russia Council, Russia would feel it necessary to insist on recasting the NATO-Russia relationship, if not withdraw completely from the NRC, in the event of Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO.

    Comment
    -------

    12. (C) Russia's opposition to NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia is both emotional and based on perceived strategic concerns about the impact on Russia's interests in the region. It is also politically popular to paint the U.S. and NATO as Russia's adversaries and to use NATO's outreach to Ukraine and Georgia as a means of generating support from Russian nationalists. While Russian opposition to the first round of NATO enlargement in the mid-1990's was strong, Russia now feels itself able to respond more forcefully to what it perceives as actions contrary to its national interests.

    BURNS
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  16. #256

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Wait... what?

    You're going to accept an invasion created status quo?
    This position is not unique. Normandy Format talks in Berlin a couple days ago were trying to use the Minsk framework as a starting point. Ukraine of course, refused to even quote the text. Understandable. Goes to show quickly Europe is willing to sell out Ukraine's sovereignty. Of course, sovereignty is always for sale, anybody who wants to virtue signal about it is just as daft as the typical Brexit supporter.

    The Minsk agreements were only ever a stop-gap until something better could be worked out.
    Sure. Just like the Six Assurances are a "stop-gap" to something better. If it can exist in perpetuity it will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    I invite you all to attentively read,

    NATO Expansion. “ a policy error of historic importance” Micheal MaccGwire, Review of International Studies, 1998,24, 23-42



    The Strategic Blunder That Led to Today's Conflict in Ukraine



    Burns, Cable.


    The Nation article has some issues with it, but it is largely correct, in my opinion. The biggest mistake is of course the premise. NATO Expansion has been a strategic success, and the only thing that the Ukrainian situation demonstrates, is that Russia is still on the defensive. If you are feeling completely cynical, the portioning of Ukraine would actually be a net positive for NATO. Western Ukraine can become a NATO member quickly, and now there is an ally South of the Suwalki Gap. Russia's options are becoming increasingly constricted, as Western influence offers only two options. Either a NATO member or a Western ally like Finland on your border, which is an obvious Lose for Russian security. Or, Russia nips the issue in the bud (like with Georgia), and the country becomes your enemy anyway, which is also a Lose.

    Faced with a prospect of a Lose-Lose situation, Russia is obviously taking the pragmatic approach. Cut your losses, and take the hit now, rather than taking a bigger hit later. Letting Ukraine become military and economically more powerful, means that a conflict over Donbass and Crimea will be bloodier, it might invoke Article V or simply greater Western aid, and/or it might present a serious threat to Russia's core. Ukraine has no standoff weapons today. That will probably be change if they're allowed to sit and build-up for the next 10+ years. Russia's actions are rational, and if you think NATO doesn't realize this, well, I don't know what to tell you. Congratulations on being born yesterday?

  17. #257
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Citizen

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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Sky News's interview without manipulative editing,


    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  18. #258

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Am I the only one who thinks world leaders should not have the ability to meet behind closed doors like that?
    For the sake of transparency, world leaders should be forced to make footage of their meetings public right away.
    Like how do we know Putin and Biden were talking about Ukraine and not just some pipeline or arms trade deal?

  19. #259
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Am I the only one who thinks world leaders should not have the ability to meet behind closed doors like that?
    For the sake of transparency, world leaders should be forced to make footage of their meetings public right away.
    Like how do we know Putin and Biden were talking about Ukraine and not just some pipeline or arms trade deal?
    I think you're not the only one who thinks that, but you'd find yourself in a less friendly world. Putin and Biden should be allowed to talk about pipelines and arms trade.

    If leaders aren't able to discuss things in confidence, it opens them up to diplomacy by the mob, or worse, by vocal minority interest groups. Nothing would get done because everyone at the table would be too scared to compromise for fear of losing face amongst some key demographic. The most important part of international relations is the ability to negotiate and compromise to reach an agreement - ideally one that leaves both parties accepting the outcome. Often this compromise happens in the smaller less important items on the agenda, but if every domestic interest group has to be appeased, this couldn't happen. You'd see more war and less diplomacy. If that's what you want, then what ever. Its not what I want, so I would prefer political dialogue to be done in confidence to allow for constructive negotiation to actually happen.

    But transparency is important, as is out ability to hold politicians and diplomats to account. I would prefer negotiations to be made public in their entirety, after the fact. Much like in parliaments where policy isn't made in public, it is drafted by subject matter experts, then consulted and debated afterwards. So we can then judge the compromises or discussions that have been made in our names, and hold our representatives to account.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  20. #260
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post


    Anatol Lieven. Read the full article.Ukraine
    Brief excerpt,




    As simple as that.
    Your entire strategy can pretty much be boiled down to some good old-fashioned appeasement. Have Europeans really forgotten why appeasing appeasing authoritarian leaders or dictators doesn't work?

    Interesting though the EU is willing to sell out Ukraine. Will they do the same to Poland? Or the Baltics? Or other fellow Eastern European EU members? Must be easy to give up territory when it's not yours.

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