View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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150. You may not vote on this poll
  • I support Ukraine fully.

    104 69.33%
  • I support Russia fully.

    16 10.67%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.67%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.33%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.67%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.33%
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Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #221

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    More lies. Russia never had any intention of joining NATO, in fact they even refused to allow transit flights across southern Russia when the war in Afghanistan was going on. Russia is the aggressor in Europe and has been the aggressor for 250 years. If Russia wanted peace in good faith it would not have fought a war against Romania and Moldova in 1992, it would not have invaded Georgia, it would not have invaded Crimea and it would not be funding terrorists in Ukraine, it would have constantly and consistently tried to provoke a war by breaching neighboring countries air-space.

    But hey, maybe this is Romanian propaganda, maybe you have sources to back up all that you've said.



    The fun part is that both are lying through their teeth.
    I don't think you want to play the "sources" game. Your claim about Russia not allowing NATO transit is objectively false:
    http://eurodialogue.org/Russia-allow...-via-Ulyanovsk
    Also this whole Eastern European Rusophobia thing doesn't even make sense. If anything, blame Lenin and Stalin (and their Western backers) for annexing parts of Russian clay to newly-minted "socialist republics" and thus causing today's post-Soviet border gore, be it South Osetia being annexed to Georgia by a Georgian commie or Crimea to Ukraine by a Ukrainian commie. Blaming Russians for trying to fix that is just as silly as blaming Middle Eastern nations for border conflicts caused by colonial powers carving up the region with 0 regard to ethnic or religious divides after WW1.

  2. #222
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    We're talking about airspace transit for military craft, not a cold war era airport located 3400 kilometers from Kabul. Also you link mentions nothing of Russia wanting to join NATO, in fact it mentions that Russians protested the move. Hmmm, so much for the russian victim narrative.

    So yeah, I do want to play the source game. Of course you can simply not reply if you don't have any about Russia offering to join NATO.

    If anything, blame Lenin and Stalin (and their Western backers) for annexing parts of Russian clay to newly-minted "socialist republics" and thus causing today's
    There was no point in time when that was legitimate "Russian clay".
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  3. #223

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    We're talking about airspace transit for military craft, not a cold war era airport located 3400 kilometers from Kabul. Also you link mentions nothing of Russia wanting to join NATO, in fact it mentions that Russians protested the move. Hmmm, so much for the russian victim narrative.

    So yeah, I do want to play the source game. Of course you can simply not reply if you don't have any about Russia offering to join NATO.
    Dude I literally posted a source about NATO transition base on Russian territory, the exact opposite of what you claimed. I'm not going to do all the work for you while you spout outrageous claim and show zero willingness to back them up.
    There was no point in time when that was legitimate "Russian clay".
    Yes there was, before 1917 lol. Donbass, Malorussia and Crimea were annexed to Ukrainian "socialist republic" by force, it is a fact that's not even contested by Ukraine itself, which primarily focuses on "we were Kievan Rus" mythology, kinda similar to how there are sects of people in Romania that unironically think they are descendants of actual Romans.

  4. #224
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Show me your sources hammer. Do you even have any?

    Dude I literally posted a source about NATO transition base on Russian territory
    This is also not true.
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  5. #225

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Show me your sources hammer. Do you even have any?



    This is also not true.
    1-800-Come-On-Now:
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    I don't think you want to play the "sources" game. Your claim about Russia not allowing NATO transit is objectively false:
    http://eurodialogue.org/Russia-allow...-via-Ulyanovsk

  6. #226
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    So you don't have any source that Russia wanted to be in NATO and that Russia allowed military flights (talking jet fighters, attack helos, etc) across its territory. Ok then. Then why did you claim they did and that you had sources?

    PS: Your link about Russia allowing cargo and civilian transport planes to land in Ulyanovsk does not cover either claim you made. That's visible to anyone who can read English.
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  7. #227

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    LOL dude, you claimed that Russia didn't allow a transit base for US to use in Afghanistan:
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    in fact they even refused to allow transit flights across southern Russia when the war in Afghanistan was going on.
    I provided source that proves the exact opposite of what you claimed. I agree with a lot of your posts in Mudpit, but when it comes to Eastern European geopolitics, you posts are not being 100% rational and in good faith.
    This whole Eastern European Rusophobia thing is just silly, since you can't really hold Russians responsible for what Lenin or Stalin did and communistic regimes were vehemently anti-Russian. Its like holding German Jews responsible for Holocaust because their tax money were used to build camps. As for current Russian Irredentism, it is largely justified by actions of the Soviet government (and Western powers that funded it into being in the first place).

  8. #228
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Russian expansionism and colonialism far surpasses Lenin and the USSR. In fact, even starting from the Stalin era, USSR implemented heavily Russian nationalistic policies. They have settled Russians throughout many regions, demographically engineering them to assimilate more and more people into a Russian culture.

    From Kazakhstan to Armenia to Ukraine and Baltics, Moscow used a policy of creating Russian ethnic enclaves to create imperial dependencies to Moscow. Peoples all over the Eurasia had to serve Moscow. THe demographic engineering of Russian imperialism have caused civil wars throughout the whole Eurasian area that still hampers growth, development and peace today. Worse, Russia still uses these civil wars to assert it's archaic ideologies and obsessions preventing progress all over the place. All for the sake of Russian nationalism, the state elit of Moscow and loyal oligarch's natural resource export revenues that they steal from the people of Russia.
    Such a rich country and yet it is still pretty much a 3rd world space in most parts with a GDP per Capita of 10k USD. A progressive Russia free from Putinism would have easily tripled that.

    This is not Russophobia. This is the state-elite, the security apparatus and the oligarchs of the Russian empire. They are leeching all that Russia could have been. They are exploiting the people of Russia before all others.

    For a "freedom-loving" anti-Westerner you are too much into Russian imperialism, autocracy and statism HH...just goes to show your true colors.

    Blame communist Lenin for Russian aggresion? Trying to use the "common enemy" to lure people into your Slavic nationalist fantasies, revising history so we do not see the obvious? That Russia wants to use hard power to swallow chunks of land from Central Asia to Eastern Europe...

    Russian expansionism is one of the bloodiest the history has ever seen and Moscow regime still wants to push that into Europe's throat. When you say "Western "aggresion you are forgetting (well you are not forgetting, you are blurrying on purpose) that West is an ideology of an ensemble of peoples. It is not a particular nation's nationalism, it is a lifestyle that brings Europeans together in free, open societies where one can live free from torture, assasinations, beatings, jail for political views. A life where you can criticize the elite and survive.

    You are equating an ideological expansion to Russian state entity's expansion. Apples and oranges. Increasing Moscow's reach at the cost of people's free elections, free media, free market, transparent society and institutions above person rule...If Moscow has to use armies, secret police, no free elecions, police crackdowns, assasinations to protect it's regime, I am sorry but it sounds like Moscow has a pretty bad system.

    So the Ukranians have no right to rule themselves, organize around Kiev because they are ethnically tied to Russians? Thats your sense of "freedom" that you promote against Western imperialism and financial elite? People of Ukraine also have to bow down to Moscow regime? Be leeched by the authoritarian, corrupt mechanisms dominated by oligarchs who steal people's wealth and murder at will?

    Yeah...I'll pass.
    Last edited by dogukan; February 08, 2022 at 02:51 PM.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  9. #229

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    even starting from the Stalin era, USSR implemented heavily Russian nationalistic policies
    By mass murdering Russians in tens of millions?
    The only time Stalin vaguely pretended to be a "Russian patriot" was during first few years of Barbarossa, when Russians begun defecting en masse to German side, and that sentiment disappeared after WW2 as well.
    USSR has always been an anti-Russia state with Rusophobia being present in its ideology from day one. Its like calling Third Reich a zionist state because there were some Jewish people in the SS.
    ? That Russia wants to use hard power to swallow chunks of land from Central Asia to Eastern Europe...
    Sounds like one of Erdogan's rants.
    But seriously, your position seems to be based on really random revisionism.
    You ignored the fact that the current conflict was caused by Soviet dictators carving up borders and annexing Russian regions to non-Russian "socialist republics" which were drawn up with no regard to the actual populations. You claim that Russians ignore "free elections" or something, but can you cite the election where people of Donbass and Crimea voted to be part of Ukraine or people of Osetia and Abkhazia voted to be part of Georgia? Which election on who gets to be where was held in Karabah?
    To put it into perspective, we held multiple referendums on Quebec's status within Canada.
    Again, treating post-USSR bordergore as some holy relics of sovereignty and democracy is just silly.

  10. #230
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    LOL dude, you claimed that Russia didn't allow a transit base for US to use in Afghanistan:
    Yes, military transit. That's what were talking about. Now hurry up with those sources.
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  11. #231

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Yes, military transit. That's what were talking about. Now hurry up with those sources.
    It's amazing that someone is arguing with HH, of all people, in bad faith. Your original post did not specify "military transit". It simply said transit. This entire historical revisionism is retarded. Putin was one of the first leaders to call Bush to offer his condolences in the aftermath of 9/11. Russia shared intelligence and expertise on Afghanistan to aid United States (Bush At War pg.103), and Putin (in his first couple years of office) had to phone Central Asian leaders and contradict his Defense Minister to allowed air basing rights in those countries. Russian airspace and Russian CSAR would also be at U.S. disposal (Bush at War p.118).

    Russia's attempt to capitalize on the opportunity presented by 9/11 and Operation Enduring Freedom to re-align global dialogue was unparalleled at the time and was rightly seen as a positive moment by both the press, the political elite, and by United States itself. Nobody shares your point of view. Arguably, this trajectory was ruined by the 2007 NATO Summit in Bucharest. Not Russian aggression or some other nonsense. In fact, this is corroborated by NATO itself, which documents almost zero of the frozen conflicts pre-2008. Meaning that the only hiccup NATO practically sees, is the 2008 Russo-Georgian War and related disputes, and the 2014 Annexation of Crimea which (rightfully) ended virtually all NATO-Russia co-operation.

    So this fiction and portrait of an eternally-aggressive Russia is not even something that NATO sees. Pragmatically, speaking, Eastern Europe should be concerned by NATO's language, which is why it doesn't surprise me that countries like Poland prefer to hedge their bets with U.S. rather than placing their hopes with the slow-moving NATO.

  12. #232
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    We are discussing about NATO and the military specifically. Please read the entire discussion from the start. The initial claim is that Putin wanted to join NATO but NATO refused and that Putin allowed NATO military to cross Russia and that NATO has done nothing but victimize the Russian people in return, which are both lies.
    When I asked for sources on either claim all was posted is a link that showed Russia set up a supply depo for CIVILIAN planes in Ulyanovsk of all places. Not a NATO base, as was claimed, not a supply depo for military vehicles. Civilian aircraft. In Ulyanovsk.

    If you consider that arguing in bad faith be my guest, but I'm going to call out lies and Kremlin propaganda when I see them.
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  13. #233

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    We are discussing about NATO and the military specifically.
    So am I. Military intelligence, and allowing military hardware to fly over Russian airspace is part of the military. Russians even provided military aid to the Afghan opposition in 2001, to help U.S.

    Please read the entire discussion from the start. The initial claim is that Putin wanted to join NATO but NATO refused and that Putin allowed NATO military to cross Russia and that NATO has done nothing but victimize the Russian people in return, which are both lies. When I asked for sources on either claim all was posted is a link that showed Russia set up a supply depo for CIVILIAN planes in Ulyanovsk of all places. Not a NATO base, as was claimed, not a supply depo for military vehicles. Civilian aircraft. In Ulyanovsk.
    I did read the entire thing. This weird "specificity" is weird because it's at odds with perfectly reasonable behavior. Russia co-operated with U.S. and NATO during this war in every way short of allowing explicitly military aircraft over its airspace. Not that NATO needed to. This co-operation was furthered by allowing the use of Russian rail and airspace for supplies, including military supplies and military personnel. This weird fixation on CIVILIAN aircraft is at odds with the reality of the situation. Which is, that Russia offered and delivered a huge amount of logistics support for the NATO war effort. Arguably, with much less fuss than the good ol' ally Pakistan.

    If you consider that arguing in bad faith be my guest, but I'm going to call out lies and Kremlin propaganda when I see them.
    Denying objective history is pretty bad faith. Putin has repeatedly floated the idea of joining NATO in early 2000s. These ideas were quickly shut down because debate of NATO's enlargement dominated much of 2002-2005 discussion. Russia's perceptions of NATO relations worsened after the European Shield discussions in 2006-2007, the Bucharest Summit in 2008, and subsequent dangling of further NATO enlargement to Georgia and Ukraine. After the Russo-Georgia War the course was set, and in 2014 all practical co-operation ceased.

    But in 2000-2001 Russia's NATO membership was entertained not just by Putin, but even by Atlantic Council and NATO.

  14. #234
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    When the Europeans stumbled across Taiwan in the 17th century, Chinese fishermen and traders living there numbered in the hundreds. Taiwanese aboriginal people are not Han Chinese,
    In the 16th century.In fact,it was Portuguese sailors who, in 1542, first passed by Taiwan on their way to Japan, dubbing it "Ilha Formosa" ("Beautiful Island" in Portuguese).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Taiwanese aboriginal people are not Han Chinese
    We can not have a rational discussion based on nonsense arguments. The Indigenous peoples of Americas are not White European colonizers. It’s also a well known fact that the American Declaration of Independence brings mixed feelings for Native Americans.
    Anyway, although relatively irrelevant, it’s interesting,
    Detecting Genetic Ancestry and Adaptation in the Taiwanese

    Abstract
    The Taiwanese people are composed of diverse indigenous populations and the Taiwanese Han. About 95% of the Taiwanese identify themselves as Taiwanese Han, but this may not be a homogeneous population because they migrated to the island from various regions of continental East Asia over a period of 400 years. Little is known about the underlying patterns of genetic ancestry, population admixture, and evolutionary adaptation in the Taiwanese Han people. Here, we analyzed the whole-genome single-nucleotide polymorphism genotyping data from 14,401 individuals of Taiwanese Han collected by the Taiwan Biobank and the whole-genome sequencing data for a subset of 772 people. We detected four major genetic ancestries with distinct geographic distributions (i.e., Northern, Southeastern, Japonic, and Island Southeast Asian ancestries) and signatures of population mixture contributing to the genomes of Taiwanese Han. We further scanned for signatures of positive natural selection that caused unusually long-range haplotypes and elevations of hitchhiked variants. As a result, we identified 16 candidate loci in which selection signals can be unambiguously localized at five single genes: CTNNA2, LRP1B, CSNK1G3, ASTN2, and NEO1. Statistical associations were examined in 16 metabolic-related traits to further elucidate the functional effects of each candidate gene. All five genes appear to have pleiotropic connections to various types of disease susceptibility and significant associations with at least one metabolic-related trait. Together, our results provide critical insights for understanding the evolutionary history and adaption of the Taiwanese Han population.
    Introduction

    Disease susceptibility differs greatly between populations and appears to be correlated with human population history (Chen et al. 2012; Corona et al. 2013). However, owing to the complex history of human migration, most contemporary populations are genetically admixed, which could complicate the efforts of genetic profiling for susceptibility to diseases (Gravel 2012; Kidd et al. 2012; Marnetto et al. 2020). Therefore, understanding the genetic ancestry, population substructure, and migration history of people who live in the same geographic region may allow us to better characterize the admixed ancestry for each individual genome, providing critical information to facilitate genome-wide association studies for mapping disease-causing variants. Disease susceptibility may also arise as side effects of evolutionary adaptation. Under a certain selection pressure (e.g., malaria), genetic adaptation could increase an individuals’ fitness in terms of survival or reproductive success, but this could sometimes be accompanied with the cost of the carriers’ health (Haldane 1932). Sickle-cell anemia, thalassemia, and APOL1-mediated kidney diseases are among the most noticeable examples in which carriers of the respective disease-causing variants confer protective effects against parasitic infection (Kwiatkowski 2005; Weatherall 2008; Genovese et al. 2010; Ko et al. 2012, 2013). Therefore, detection of genomic signatures of evolutionary adaptation provides an alternative approach to shed light on the biological mechanisms underlying disease susceptibility (Lachance and Tishkoff 2013; Vasseur and Quintana-Murci 2013).
    Taiwan is home to a diversity of human ethnic groups that can be roughly grouped into three major populations. Taiwanese Han people are the descendants of early immigrants (mainly Minnan and Hakka) who migrated from Southern China in the last 400 years and were recently joined by many immigrants from various geographic areas of China at the end of World War II in 1945 (Dittmer 2004). The second major group contains 16 officially recognized indigenous populations, representing 2.3% of the total population in Taiwan. These indigenous tribes harbor rich genetic diversity and have been considered as the ancestral lineages of Austronesian-speaking people (Trejaut et al. 2005; Soares et al. 2011; Ko et al. 2014; Lipson et al. 2014; Trejaut et al. 2014; Chang, Liu, et al. 2015; Soares et al. 2016). Finally, the third group, Taiwan plain aborigines (Pingpu), includes many tribes that previously inhabited plains across the island of Taiwan. Although they are thought to be descendants of Austronesian-speaking people, most of these tribes may have admixed with the Taiwanese Han people (Trejaut et al. 2005, 2014). However, the extent of contribution of genetic diversity from the Pingpu aborigines to the Taiwanese Han, as well as the degree of population mixture between the current Taiwanese Han and indigenous populations, is unclear.
    ----
    What is 'Finlandization,' a Status Proposed for Ukraine? N.Y Times
    the idea is once again being discussed in diplomatic circles.
    Ukraine is not Finland. It is a highly corrupt country.Anyway, "finlandization" would be an obvious solution for Ukraine, in order to respect the principle of spheres of influence.


    Remarks by Vice President Joe Biden at the World Economic ...
    The right of all nations “to make their own decisions and choose their own alliances.”
    Really? hmm, isn’t the Monroe doctrine "as relevant today, as it was the day it was written"?

    B. Sanders just confirmed what I’ve been saying all along. The name of the imperial game is Theodore Roosevelt’s corollary (1904). (Source, "U.S. Engagement in the Western Hemisphere", U.S. Department of State, accessed February 10, 2019).

    We must do everything possible to avoid an enormously an enormously destructive war in Ukraine

    I am extremely concerned when I hear the familiar drumbeats in Washington, the bellicose rhetoric that gets amplified before every war, demanding that we must “show strength”, “get tough” and not engage in “appeasement”.
    it is hypocritical for the United States to insist that we do not accept the principle of “spheres of influence”. For the last 200 years our country has operated under the Monroe Doctrine, embracing the premise that as the dominant power in the western hemisphere, the United States has the right to intervene against any country that might threaten our alleged interests. Under this doctrine we have undermined and overthrown at least a dozen governments. In 1962 we came to the brink of nuclear war with the Soviet Union in response to the placement of Soviet missiles in Cuba, 90 miles from our shore, which the Kennedy administration saw as an unacceptable threat to our national security.

    And the Monroe Doctrine is not ancient history. As recently as 2018, Donald Trump’s secretary of state, Rex Tillerson, called the Monroe Doctrine “as relevant today as it was the day it was written”. In 2019, Trump’s former national security adviser, John Bolton, declared “the Monroe Doctrine is alive and well”.
    To put it simply, even if Russia was not ruled by a corrupt authoritarian leader like Vladimir Putin, Russia, like the United States, would still have an interest in the security policies of its neighbors. Does anyone really believe that the United States would not have something to say if, for example, Mexico was to form a military alliance with a US adversary?
    Last edited by Ludicus; February 09, 2022 at 04:25 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  15. #235
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I think "Finlandization" is currently impossible for Ukraine, without constitutional amendments, and it is not at all popular with the public so would be unlikely to be agreed. In fact, even in Finland, opposition to joining NATO is at historic lows - there isn't a lot of appetite for Finland to go back to the 1980s with the balancing act that entailed + There is absolutely no chance that NATO would agree to anything that looks like a Russian demand. And any sort of guarantee of neutrality would be a massive loss of face and legitimacy. It is a non-starter.

    Increasingly, I'm becoming convinced that we're seeing the Americans starting to drive this situation forward in a deliberate turning of screws - ratcheting up the pressure on Putin and giving him no room to back down. Every time I see a US report ramping up projections of war, it increases the pressure on NATO to come together - and I suspect that there's a wedge with Biden's name on it being hammered into German-Russian relations as we speak - we're seeing Sweden and Finland openly discussing NATO membership, and the Euros in general are starting to think about upping their military budgets for reals (Another case of Biden channelling Trump foreign policy with a velvet glove).

    And there's Putin... who thinks he's playing gangster international relations with his expensive army parked up there in the snow burning through cash like there's no tomorrow. He can back down with some sort of flimsy excuse we can all see through - losing face at home and abroad - likely to never be able to use the threat of force again without being called on it. Or he can go to war and suffer the economic turmoil, occupation and resistance, and domestic problems that would entail - not to mention guaranteeing a stronger and now very focussed anti-Russian NATO to deal with. His choice is bleak an the Americans know it - they have him over a barrel.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  16. #236

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    The Indigenous peoples of Americas are not White European colonizers.
    WhAt AbOuT AmErIcA. If the EU were claiming the US as its territory today and threatening to invade (lol), the perennial tankie refrain might be vaguely relevant. But they aren’t so it’s not.
    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus
    Increasingly, I'm becoming convinced that we're seeing the Americans starting to drive this situation forward in a deliberate turning of screws - ratcheting up the pressure on Putin and giving him no room to back down. Every time I see a US report ramping up projections of war, it increases the pressure on NATO to come together - and I suspect that there's a wedge with Biden's name on it being hammered into German-Russian relations as we speak - we're seeing Sweden and Finland openly discussing NATO membership, and the Euros in general are starting to think about upping their military budgets for reals (Another case of Biden channelling Trump foreign policy with a velvet glove).
    That has been a nice upside to this. If Putin is actually dumb enough to try and take over all of Ukraine instead of continuing to slice off little Sudetenlands under the usual ethnic pretexts, that would certainly save the US the trouble of trying to build NATO consensus and fend off Putin’s asymmetric warfare. It would also greatly reduce the utility of Russia as a Chinese ally, and may even make them more of a liability to Beijing. All the resources of the Russian state would be focused on assimilating vast new territory, at which point the US could keep the Russians focused away from attacking us simply by the occasional stirring of the pot. If the long term impact is to create a European army, that might be bad for US interests in Europe, but if the increase in local defense spending just means Europeans will meet their NATO commitments more consistently, then all’s well that ends well. Fingers crossed.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; February 09, 2022 at 06:21 AM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  17. #237
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    @Ludicus: Please ignore this anglosphere strongman talk. Its completely irrelevant for the european population what in their "Anglosphere strong, Anglosphere beats everyone" bubble are thinking.

    Relevant is for Europeans to deescalate before Anglosphere is igniting a total war in Europe with their more and more escalating rhetoric.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; February 09, 2022 at 01:17 PM. Reason: Off-topic.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  18. #238
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Hrm...

    Dismissing a perspective because of the ethnicity of those putting it forward. Interesting approach Morticia...

  19. #239
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    @Ludicus: Please ignore this anglosphere strongman talk. Its completely irrelevant for the european population what anglosphere warhawks in their "Anglosphere strong, Anglosphere beats everyone" bubble are thinking.

    Relevant is for Europeans to deescalate before Anglosphere is igniting a total war in Europe with their more and more escalating rhetoric.
    That's right
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  20. #240
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    And Macron seems to have worked in the right direction with initiating talks with Putin by taking him as negotiation partner seriously.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; February 09, 2022 at 09:09 AM.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


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