View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    85 69.11%
  • I support Russia fully.

    12 9.76%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 3.25%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    7 5.69%
  • Not sure.

    7 5.69%
  • I don't care.

    8 6.50%
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Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #7261

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I am extremely glad that the West is finally starting to send tanks to Ukraine. I do not believe that they will change a lot the strategic situation. Some 60 tanks or so is not going to make a great strategic difference. But maybe, just maybe it is the start of a greater support. The more the West is supporting Ukraine the faster the war ends. And the stronger the support given, the faster Russia gets it that it is having no chance and it's efforts are doomed.

    If next the West will agree to give F-16s it will send the right signal. I mean that the Ukrainians will need a very long time, months to train pilots to use these airplanes. Maybe barely after a year they will reach the front line. But if the Western countries are starting training pilots and show more than in empty words that they will support the Ukrainians as long as it is going to take. Some people at Kremlin will start having second thoughts.
    The Russian economy will collapse in few years and that will be the end of it, a North Korea v.2 that gets the honor to sell natural resources to Chinese at a very special bargain price. That if the Chinese are going to accept after a certain threshold to buy them. It is always going to be a very cold math from the Chinese: how much do we loose in our commerce with the West by pissing off the Western countries if we pump money in Russia.

    The Chinese would need to be absolute fools not to demand from Russia an oil/gas price with something like -50% or even -75% less than the one sold on the international market.

  2. #7262
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    Mobilizing is a perfectly normal and legitimate thing to do when a smaller country is invaded by a larger one. That is what we do in the event of an invasion, and it would be immoral not to.

    Russia mobilizing to fight a completely unnecessary war of conquest and Ukraine doing so to defend themselves are not morally equal in any way.
    Did Ukraine have mandatory army service before? If not, a mobilization will create massive problems with people who (in a system of mandatory service) would have already gone through long procedures to be allowed not to participate in the army. Such are established to avoid personal harm, including suicide. Furthermore, drafting random people at times of war will inevitably lead to many being physically (the prior comment was about their psychology) incapable of providing much.

    If there is mandatory service, at least it makes some sense to mobilize those who are still of young age and have already gone through military training. Obviously many will try to avoid it, since war is no fun, nor is death (as far as we know) ^^
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  3. #7263
    Peresvet's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Judging by the videos that come from Ukraine, the mobilization there has in many ways become similar to the Russian one, random and unprepared people are simply pulled out of the streets, put on handcuffs and dragged into the trenches. I am against such a chaotic and violent mobilization, it will not bring success anyway, since such people will surrender or desert anyway, they are not suitable for war. In general, I support the libertarian state system, when there is no conscription even during the war and the state fights only with the efforts of a professional army and private military companies.
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

  4. #7264
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I am not against mobilization, but only if procedures are in place so as to exactly avoid people being sent to their death (little to no training, no physical or psychological capacity to be of use as soldiers).
    As for trying to avoid mobilization, that must be as old as mobilization itself. I recall reading about cases in the Franco-Prussian war where people would deliberately use acid on their teeth, so as to be deemed incapacitated to serve (because you had to be able to open the bullet pack with your teeth, while keeping your other hand on the rifle).
    Last edited by Kyriakos; January 27, 2023 at 12:02 AM.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  5. #7265
    Peresvet's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    the minimum wage ($234) in Russia is lower than in Gabon ($270), South Africa ($242.35), Libya ($325), Morocco (from $265 to $310). https://finance.rambler.ru/other/449...ource=copylink

    Almost half of Russians earn less than 15 thousand rubles a month, it is less 230 dollars.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kom...ru/amp/4406754

    That is why poor Russians agree to go to kill Ukrainians for any money, they live in such severe poverty that they don’t even have enough for food.
    Last edited by Peresvet; January 27, 2023 at 03:22 AM.
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

  6. #7266
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I am extremely glad that the West is finally starting to send tanks to Ukraine. I do not believe that they will change a lot the strategic situation. Some 60 tanks or so is not going to make a great strategic difference. But maybe, just maybe it is the start of a greater support. The more the West is supporting Ukraine the faster the war ends. And the stronger the support given, the faster Russia gets it that it is having no chance and it's efforts are doomed.
    Well they do when you tally up the top tier APCs and MIFVs and latest round of SP artillery also being sent. Collectively If support intensive Ukraine gets likely 3 new mechanized/armored brigades. And overall equipped better than what Russia is pulling out storage for it mobilized troops. That has the operational scale level of a either a significant counter attack or offensive come the spring. Also more than 60 tanks would seem to be seriously promised in the short term and less noted is more pact era gear has also been mentioned but not noticed so much T-72s, SP artillery, BMPs
    Last edited by conon394; January 27, 2023 at 04:17 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  7. #7267
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    For those who don't follow the events, Soledar was not taken by the Russian Army, it was a Wagner operation,
    Russia took Soledar. The Wagner Group is a Russian private military company. Btw, only citizens of third countries fighting as part of the Wagner Group within Ukraine can be considered mercenaries. All others are combatants. It must be said that there are thousands of foreign fighters in an incredible complex battlefield -with a range of violent non-state actors-private military contractors, foreign fighters, volunteers, mercenaries, extremists, and terrorist groups.On a side note, Suicide missions, abuse, physical threats: International Legion

    ---

    Tanks to Palestine? Since Palestine is the victim of extreme violence, are we sending tanks there? Likewise, to the Polisario front? Are we going to impose sanctions against Israel and Morocco? Of course not, since these victims do not possess the raw materials that capital covets and they are strategically irrelevant. 2022 Among Deadliest Years for Palestinians in West Bank
    Meanwhile In Israel 'Dictatorship of Criminals:' Over 130,000 Israelis Protest Netanyahu Government’s Anti-democratic Reforms - Haaretz.

    Israelis can protest all they want, Israel can turn into a racist, violent, extremist religious dictatorship, but that doesn't stop the US from conducting large-scale military maneuvers with Israel. Israel, U.S. Begin Large-scale Military Drills In Show Of Strength

    When we provoked Russia, when we ignored the promises made regarding NATO's non-advance (not an inch!), when we interfered in internal Ukrainian politics *, did we foresee that Russia would not react? Why do we violently attack some dictators and unconditionally protect others? Why are we surprised that Russia is doing what we Westerners did in Vietnam, Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan? If we -the so-called Western side- keeps stubbornly seeking for a "total defeat” of Russia, victory, rejecting a diplomatic solution that forces a compromise, the escalation we are witnessing could lead us to a global catastrophe. **

    Western allies to deliver 321 tanks to Ukraine

    But the list of equipment that the Ukrainians want seems to expand continuously: now Ukraine calls for fighter jets, long range missiles, the American Apache helicopter, the German Helicopter TRIGAT LR third-generation, high-precision, fire-and-forget anti-tank guided missile with multi-role capability for long-range applications.

    *
    Sandwiches, not cookies, she said.” That's misinformation! “I did not distribute cookies, I distributed sandwiches.” Victoria Nuland

    **
    Concerning the arguments for 'total defeat' of Russia- Responsible Statecraft.

    They fall apart at the slightest examination, but are dominating the Ukraine discussion nonetheless. Let’s take them on, point for point.
    Zealous advocates of Western support for the total defeat of Russia in Ukraine — including, if necessary, direct Western intervention and NATO-Russia war — base their case is set on a disparate set of arguments, almost every one of which turns out on examination to be either exaggerated or wholly mistaken.
    The most extreme is that the defense of “civilization” demands the complete defeat of Russia, ideally leading in turn to Nuremberg-style trials of the top officials of the Russian government and (for some commentators) the break-up of the Russian Federation itself. This call is linked to the allegation that the Russian invasion has been not merely brutal, but has amounted to “genocide.”
    This charge forms — at least subliminally — a serious intellectual and moral barrier to any eventual peace settlement. For the implied association of the Russian regime with Nazism suggests not just that no compromise with this regime is morally possible, but that morality and peace demand that the regime — and the state system over which it presides — be totally destroyed.
    If one were to accept and follow through on this analogy, it would also lead to the conclusion that to defeat such evil, almost any means and any alliances are legitimate. For after all, the Nazis were not defeated by limited and humane war. They were defeated in total war by the Red Army, which (together with Polish and Czech militias) killed hundreds of thousands of eastern German civilians, and ethnically cleansed more than a million more — and with the help of a British and American bombing campaign that deliberately killed hundreds of thousands of German civilians and destroyed their cities.
    We should recall the words of C. Vann Woodward in opposition to the U.S. war in Vietnam:
    “The irony of the moralistic approach, when exploited by [American] nationalism, is that the high motive to end justice and immorality actually results in making war more amoral and horrible than ever and in shattering the foundations of the political and moral order upon which peace has to be built.”
    Above all, any reputable historian should be able to recognize that even an extremely brutal military campaign in which numerous civilians are killed is not the same as the Nazi Holocaust or the Rwandan genocide.
    If it were, then every Western state that has waged a major war over the past century would have been guilty of this — a judgment which would make the term “genocide” meaningless and incidentally insult the victims of the true genocides.
    The Putin regime has sought hegemony over Ukraine and has suggested that Russians and Ukrainians are to some extent “one people” (of course, with the Russians as “elder brothers”), but while quite illegitimate, that is almost the direct opposite of the exterminatory ideology of the Nazis or the Hutu genocidaires, who most certainly did not portray Germans and Jews, or Hutus and Tutsis, as “one people.”
    Advocates of the total defeat of Russia who think of themselves as “internationalists” should also ask themselves why attitudes to these questions are so very different elsewhere in the world — even among progressive intellectuals and journalists in democracies like India and South Africa.
    The answer of course is that while they condemn the Russian invasion, people in these countries see far less difference between Russian behavior, and Russian imperialism, and that of some Western countries, including in the recent past.
    A further argument is that the total defeat of Russia is necessary because, if not, Russia will either attack Ukraine again in the future, or be emboldened to invade NATO, or both. The first suggestion is illogical; the second — for the foreseeable future at least — verges on the fantastical. By far the most likely cause of a permanent Russian desire for a war of revenge would be the same disastrous obsession that centered French diplomatic and military strategy from 1871 to 1918 on the goal of recovering Alsace-Lorraine.
    In the case of Russia, for deeply-rooted and permanent historical, cultural, and ethnic reasons, this applies above all to Crimea, which the great majority of Russians (and, by all accounts, Crimeans) regard as part of Russia and which was in fact part of Russia until it was transferred to Ukraine by Soviet decree in 1954.
    To prevent Russia from ever trying to recover Crimea would mean the permanent crippling or outright destruction of the Russian state. The first — analogous to the treatment of Germany after 1918 — would, to have a chance of success, require the united economic, military and political resources of the West to be permanently directed to this end, with all other issues and threats in the world downgraded accordingly, and non-Western countries pressured to join in. This point flatly contradicts another argument of the pro-war camp, which is that the total defeat of Russia is necessary to deter China. Nothing could better serve Chinese interests and goals.
    As to the supposed threat to invade NATO: If the Russian army cannot take Kharkhiv, 20 miles from the Russian border, when only the Ukrainian army is defending it, can the Kremlin really realistically dream of capturing Warsaw or Riga, and fighting a full-scale war with NATO? Elsewhere in the world, we need to recognize that, while Russia’s presence is sometimes hostile to U.S. interests, in other cases we are still objectively speaking on the same side, such as when it comes to fighting against Islamist extremism, containing the Taliban’s influence in Central Asia, and defending Armenia against what would otherwise very likely be its destruction.
    A more cogent and legitimate argument is that the defeat of Russia is necessary to preserve the international legal order and punish the crime of aggression. However, the United States has always in practice adopted a flexible approach to international law when it comes to ending wars. Moreover, when it comes to the need to punish Russia, in terms not just of its initial objectives in this war but of Russian hegemony over Ukraine for more than 300 years, Russia has already suffered a crushing defeat and Ukraine, with Western help, has won a great victory. Tens of thousands of the best Russian soldiers are dead, Russia’s military reputation has been shredded, and its international prestige severely damaged.
    This conflict is no longer a “war to the death” for Ukraine. Whatever happens, by far the greater part of Ukraine will be independent and aligned with the West against Russia. It is about limited amounts of territory in the east and south of the country. And when it comes to territorial compromises, Washington has been willing to accept them in other places — de facto, if not de jure — without bringing the international legal order down in ruins. The Turkish occupation of northern Cyprus is one example; Kashmir is another. Neither situation corresponds to international law. On pragmatic grounds and to avoid the prolongation of disastrous conflict, both have in practice become generally accepted.
    Both of these cases, like others, including Northern Ireland, Sri Lanka, and numerous civil conflicts in Africa and the Middle East, resemble Ukraine in that they stem from the nature and collapse of colonial rule. In this too, the war in Ukraine is far less of an outlier than the supporters of total Russian defeat believe.
    Finally, there is the argument that the total defeat of Russia is necessary in order to bring democracy to Russia itself. This is pure speculation, which ignores among other things both the underlying power of Russian nationalism and the example of increased repression and intense ethnic nationalism in Ukraine as a result of the war. It is also very curious that the commentators who make this argument should also refer to Nazism. For is it not generally agreed that one key factor in the rise of Nazism was the Allied treatment of Germany after World War I?
    Or do advocates of total defeat of Russia somehow believe that they can imitate the Soviet and U.S. victory in 1945, invade and occupy Russia and install their own governments — all this without ending the world in the process?
    As a Russian saying has it, “Yes, when crabs learn to whistle.”
    Edit,
    In conclusion: Biden and the UK prevented any negotiated solution and should not have done it. Let us hope that this peace will not be achieved only after a catastrophe of biblical proportions.
    Trump urges Joe Biden to end 'crazy' Russia-Ukraine war

    As much as I dislike him, Trump is right.
    Last edited by Ludicus; January 28, 2023 at 09:49 AM.
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  8. #7268
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Russia took Soledar. The Wagner Group is a Russian private military company.
    The fact that it was the Wagner Group who took Soledar is important because how the town was taken. Wagner used expendable convicts to constantly probe Ukrainian defenses by sending in small groups to find weak spots so then Wagner mercs could exploit those, its an effective tactic but the convicts suffered insane casualties.

    Wagner Group’s Use of Convicts in Ukraine Echoes Stalinist Tactics

    “The casualty rates for the convicts are extraordinarily high," U.S. National Security Council spokesman John Kirby said in an interview Friday with VOA. “As a matter of fact, what we think is that 90% of their casualties are convicts.”
    ...
    the reality of life along the front lines — especially abuse by Wagner commanders — was so shocking the convicts' desire to serve diminished significantly by year's end.

    “Their inflow has really weakened,” Romanova said. “First of all, because of extrajudicial executions, unfulfilled promises and, of course, high — very high — casualties.”
    Wagner could do this because Russian public doesnt care about dead convicts, but Wagner has run out of convicts.
    Soledar was a one-time event.

    Look at Vuhledar to see how the actual Russian Army is failing.

  9. #7269
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    In conclusion: Biden and the UK prevented any negotiated solution and should not have done it. Let us hope that this peace will not be achieved only after a catastrophe of biblical proportions.
    Trump urges Joe Biden to end 'crazy' Russia-Ukraine war

    As much as I dislike him, Trump is right.
    You would of course apply this same logic if Spain or Morocco invaded Portugal correct. I mean it is clear it has been part the caliphate in the past and part of Spain and its existence is an eyesore to map makers who one one color on the Iberian peninsula.

    What negotiation has Biden Blocked? Perhaps Trump should urge Putin to end his war not somebody else.
    Last edited by conon394; January 28, 2023 at 04:06 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #7270
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    You would of course apply this same logic if Spain or Morocco invaded Portugal correct. I mean it is clear it has been part the caliphate in the past and part of Spain and its existence is an eyesore to map makers who one one color on the Iberian peninsula.

    What negotiation has Biden Blocked? Perhaps Trump should urge Putin to end his war not somebody else.
    Putin has repeatedly stated his terms for negotiated settlement. They don't include anything that anyone would be interested in discussing, in any way.

    Certainly, if Trump were in Zelenskyy's place... he would not be capitulating. Which is essentially what Putin's terms are. Trump on the other hand, has plenty of reasons why he'd want Zelenskyy to capitulate. None of them have anything to do with Ukraine, but rather, have everything to do with the magical Hunter Biden GOP gotcha unicorn.
    Last edited by antaeus; January 28, 2023 at 05:13 PM.
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  11. #7271
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Mercenary groups do what Wagner does and/or worse. Some consist of drugged up fiends, so using "expendable convicts" shouldn't sound that bad when compared to the norm for such disgusting groups.
    Once again, though, it appears the problem is only when Russia uses them. Why not push for an international ban on them?
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  12. #7272

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Mercenary groups do what Wagner does and/or worse. Some consist of drugged up fiends, so using "expendable convicts" shouldn't sound that bad when compared to the norm for such disgusting groups.
    Once again, though, it appears the problem is only when Russia uses them. Why not push for an international ban on them?
    Why not we start with some countries which are openly supporting them like your beloved Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gyrosmeister View Post
    I have a good suggestion. Pressure Turkey to send the Leopard 2A4s they transferred to occupied Cyprus, violating the ELUA of the sale of the tanks, to Ukraine instead.
    What ELUA is being violated? What occupied Cyprus? South Cyprus is occupied but by greeks not Turkey. Overall we got even for that a Thread:

    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...priot-dispute)


    Quote Originally Posted by Gyrosmeister View Post
    Everyone who isn't a wannabe sultan or literally anyone who calls upon "International Law" for literally everything wins from this.
    Is that "International Law" which you are referring something that only came to into effect when a country starting with "g" and ending "reece" getting a favour? We already discussed that and it turned out that greece even breaking agreements which they have signed by their own:

    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...ce-Libya-Egypt


    Quote Originally Posted by Gyrosmeister View Post
    And speaking of Greece, not even a single bullet should leave Greece when we have a neighbouring country (and an "invaluable" NATO "ally") threaten us openly with war, if it is not immediately replaced, without any delays.
    The invaluable NATO ally is greece which has done from today nothing in supporting Ukraine meanwhile trying to blackmail Turkey which is supporting Ukraine since 2014.

    Imagine abuse Germany about former East German BMP-1A1s to transfer it to Ukraine which you got as military aid from Germany and demand even additional military vehicles as replacement. We are talking about a junk which even Egypt refused to buy because their condition was so bad:

    https://greekcitytimes.com/2020/08/18/greece-sells-101-soviet-made-bmp-1-armoured-infantry-combat-vehicles-to-egypt/

    https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...lz-2022-05-31/

    Meanwhile Turkey:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Last edited by Nebaki; January 28, 2023 at 06:05 PM.

  13. #7273
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Mercenary groups do what Wagner does and/or worse. Some consist of drugged up fiends, so using "expendable convicts" shouldn't sound that bad when compared to the norm for such disgusting groups.
    Once again, though, it appears the problem is only when Russia uses them. Why not push for an international ban on them?
    I believe it is called 'whataboutism'
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  14. #7274

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Mercenary groups do what Wagner does and/or worse. Some consist of drugged up fiends, so using "expendable convicts" shouldn't sound that bad when compared to the norm for such disgusting groups.
    Once again, though, it appears the problem is only when Russia uses them. Why not push for an international ban on them?
    The hilarious thing is that PMCs are banned in Russia. According to Russian law, Wagner is an illegal organization.

  15. #7275
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Mercenary groups do what Wagner does and/or worse. Some consist of drugged up fiends, so using "expendable convicts" shouldn't sound that bad when compared to the norm for such disgusting groups.
    Once again, though, it appears the problem is only when Russia uses them. Why not push for an international ban on them?
    Funny you brought this up because The Wagner Group does not just employ mercs with criminal background, they are using convicts recruited directly from Russian prisons. Whole different story.
    Normaly Prigozhin doesnt have the right to do that, no PMC have that right, only the Russian state can authorize that.
    Which they did.
    Also, only the Russian state can pardon prisoners who have fulfilled their six-months service specified in their Wagner contract.

    So that "disgusting group" is actually the Russian state.

    They authorized the recruitment of 50.000 violent convicts from the prisons, and they authorized their release into Russian society after six months of service.

    "Once again, though, it appears the problem is only when Russia uses them."
    Who else does this besides Russia?


    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    The hilarious thing is that PMCs are banned in Russia. According to Russian law, Wagner is an illegal organization.
    True

  16. #7276

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    The hilarious thing is that PMCs are banned in Russia. According to Russian law, Wagner is an illegal organization.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    So that "disgusting group" is actually the Russian state.
    What is legal and what is not matters little to the powerful in Russia. In World Justice Project's Rule of Law Index (thanks POVG for the link), the worst countries in the world according to criterion "constraint on government powers", look like this:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    I advise taking these kinds of indices with a grain of salt*, but whatever the research method is, I don't think one ends up on the tail end of that list by accident. I should also note that some countries that do not even pretend to give their people a say, such as Cuba, North Korea, and Saudi-Arabia, are not included. More here:

    https://worldjusticeproject.org/rule-of-law-index/

    * For instance, the indices in which Finland typically ranks the top of the world in lack of corruption use metrics that fail to acknowledge the kinds of corruption there is.

  17. #7277
    Peresvet's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    News of russian nazism. In my country state occupied by putin`s nazi.

    Spouses were detained in Krasnodar because of anti-war statements in a personal conversation

    Olesya and Aleksey Ovchinnikov were detained in the Krasnodar restaurant Na Drovakh because of anti-war statements in a personal conversation. It is reported by OVD-Info.

    The police put them on the floor in handcuffs and kept them in that position for about an hour. The police explicitly stated that the detention was related to anti-war statements.

    Later, Olesya Ovchinnikova was released from the police department, a protocol was drawn up against her under the article on petty hooliganism (part 1 of article 20.1 of the Code of Administrative Offenses) and a trial was scheduled for 8:00 in the morning on the same day.
    I am Russian and I hate putin and war. Stop war in Ukraine.

  18. #7278

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Mercenary groups do what Wagner does and/or worse.
    Once again, though, it appears the problem is only when Russia uses them. Why not push for an international ban on them?
    It's more the fact Putin goes to such lengths to create impression of compliance to rule of law, but then PMCs are banned per Russian Law, but given an ok even in the russian media.

    As for PMCs in themselves they can be legal in western side (despite different rules to follow per country), so there's not as many glass ceilings to break.
    Last edited by fkizz; Today at 02:27 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  19. #7279
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    ...* For instance, the indices in which Finland typically ranks the top of the world in lack of corruption use metrics that fail to acknowledge the kinds of corruption there is.
    Its a point well made, and I see this point all the time in discussions of Chinese corruption. In Australia we have typical British style corruption, members of the wealthy elite enjoy an easier ride, there's less "mistakes" for them and they are fixed more quickly. Soft, cozy corruption.

    We Australians are shocked when Chinese government officials figure in 10% to their project budgets for small payments to various levels of government. At the same time we have "Entertainement budgets" in business negotiations, political party donations (I mean come on that's a straight up bribe amounting to a rental agreement), tax exempt status for religious groups, trust funds and arcane tax law loosely applied: we are pretty corrupt in terms of both the morality of the systems and how they are applied but we are comfortable with the familiar corruption, and shocked by the unfamiliar.

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    It's more the fact Putin goes to such lengths to create impression of compliance to rule of law, but then PMCs are banned per Russian Law, but given an ok even in the russian media.

    As for PMCs in themselves they can be legal in western side (despite different rules to follow per country), so there's not as many glass ceilings to break.
    Putin gets clout from posing as a "Christian Power". Preface a Facebook post with a prayer, talk about how Jews are promoting satanism and degeneracy, you can get some poor algorithm herded idiot to fume and vote for the [current thing]. Works with drag queens and tans kids as well. Russia just loves Facebook.

    It is a valid criticism to poke holes in Putin's alleged sanctity. Doesn't make our side sacred, although some propagandists want to make Zelenskyy a saint.

    Naturally the US sees Ukraine through its domestic lens, and there's a bunch of takes, some more detached from reality than others. Hunter Biden looks like a freeloading nepotistic scumbag, but he didn't start the war for personal profit. This war is not an existential crisis for the US, NATO or the EU. It's not the prelude to Armageddon (that was Syria, right?). Its a proxy war for the US vs Russia and increasingly China, as Putin beats his skull bloody on a wall kept just strong enough to resist him.

    Its nasty stuff. It is worthwhile putting a brake on Russian aggression. It'd be nice if less Ukrainians got raped. Be great if Ukraine could win and not cleanse ethnic Russians from its territory, we've played that game repeatedly in the last 80 years.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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