View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    103 69.59%
  • I support Russia fully.

    15 10.14%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.70%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.43%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.73%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.41%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #4901
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Well, however you picture it, it's part of natural right to expect self preservation instinct, be it of a simple specimen or of a collective organization. If it doesn't simply crumble, means it feels threatened.
    Complaining about Ukraine self preservation instinct is either propaganda (ok), or bad planning (former USSR should know better than anyone that willingness to fight back rivals high tech and high numbers)
    The question is, will the majority of Donbas civilians accept the Ukranian military fighting within civillian areas instead of the fields? Or will this contribute to a decrease in support within the Donbas (in Ukraines most populated region or oblast). If Russia reacts to every Ukranian artillery barrage from within civillian areas, the Ukranian military should evacuate the civillians out or simply establish military zones, if they wish to insist on fighting within the cities. Donbas civilians are already somewhat pro-Russia to begin with so I can't see how exposing Donbas civillians to collateral damage helps the sentiment toward the Ukranian military. As one Donbas woman (whos son serves in the Ukranian military paraphrased put it) "The Ukrainian military should fight in the fields, not our homes.".
    Last edited by z3n; August 08, 2022 at 11:37 AM.
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  2. #4902
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    " "The Ukrainian military should fight in the fields, not our homes."."

    Glad she is no in charge of organize a defense of the Ukraine this is not 1812.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #4903
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Given lack of real evidence or sources, this does sounds like something Western journos simply made up to patch up the narrative, after Amnesty International reports. It seems that Russia seems to care about civilians far more then "democratic" Ukraine does.
    Care more to make sure it kills them maybe. Russian forces operate out of civilian areas just as much, but it's Russia that is mercilessly butchering and torturing civilians.
    The argument about Western/Ukrainian moral highroad is kinda stillborn when you factor in the fact that Western-funded bolshevism created foundations for this war via annexation of Empire's ethnic Russian regions to Ukraine's "socialist republic". In the same way, Stalin annexing Osetia and Abkhazia to Georgia also caused corresponding wars in 90s and 2000s.
    Overall proxy regime in Ukraine is kinda similar to Vietnamization-era South Vietnam in that regard. Its an incredibly autocratic regime that relies solely on foreign support and despite being labeled as "democratic" its essentially a dictatorship.
    Blah blah blah. Of all the groups oppressed and genocided by the Soviet Union, Russians are not one. Ukranians were genocided by the Soviets, yet you paint them, somehow, as those who gained from the Russians. It truly boggles the mind how one could come to such conclusions. It's like you live in some fantasy world where the Holodomor hit the Russians, where it was the Russians who were forcefully deported from Crimea and subjected to genocide, where rather than Germans being subject to ethnic cleansing in Kaliningrad it was instead Russians, where Russians were deported from formerly Polish territories rather than the Poles, and where it was Russia who broke free first from the Soviet Union after decades of persecution.
    Read a book.

  4. #4904

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Russian forces operate out of civilian areas just as much, but it's Russia that is mercilessly butchering and torturing civilians.
    They say that about every country that opposes US and NATO.
    Meanwhile, in reality Ukraine continues to shell residential areas in Donbass, including use of banned cassette munitions.

    It's like you live in some fantasy world where the Holodomor hit the Russians
    It didn't hit just the Ukrainian SSR, but a lot of other parts of USSR.
    Kinda goes to show that your knowledge of history is strictly limited by ironically Soviet-style misinformation which Kiev regime is using in its rather poor-quality propaganda.
    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Well, however you picture it, it's part of natural right to expect self preservation instinct, be it of a simple specimen or of a collective organization. If it doesn't simply crumble, means it feels threatened.
    Complaining about Ukraine self preservation instinct is either propaganda (ok), or bad planning (former USSR should know better than anyone that willingness to fight back rivals high tech and high numbers)
    My point is that Zelensky's oligarchy's totalitarian behavior is to be expected, but the point is more about the myth of Ukraine having some kind of moral high-ground over Russia, which it evidently does not (unless one is going through severe CNN overdose).
    Last edited by Heathen Hammer; August 08, 2022 at 05:11 PM.

  5. #4905
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    " "The Ukrainian military should fight in the fields, not our homes."."

    Glad she is no in charge of organize a defense of the Ukraine this is not 1812.
    Err, yeah she's not in charge. Instead a Ukrainian speaking, Kyivan, ethnic Ukrainian, general makes that decision; not a Donbas Russian speaking ethnically Russian person. So yeah, people in the Donbas aren't making the decisions right now, and they're the ones dying based on those decisions. Support obviously won't be super high in the Donbas right now among civilians, and it may decrease due to that decision.
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  6. #4906

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    My point is that Zelensky's oligarchy's totalitarian behavior is to be expected, but the point is more about the myth of Ukraine having some kind of moral high-ground over Russia, which it evidently does not (unless one is going through severe CNN overdose).
    Speaking of moral high ground, according to latest news (I've got only Czech article at hand right now), the commander of Russian troops in Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant had the reactors mined. They're holding a nuclear power plant hostage.

    Even ISIS has the moral high ground over Russia now.

  7. #4907
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Speaking of moral high ground, according to latest news (I've got only Czech article at hand right now), the commander of Russian troops in Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant had the reactors mined. They're holding a nuclear power plant hostage.

    Even ISIS has the moral high ground over Russia now.
    Moral high ground from the point of view of the West? Africa? Asia? South America? Who exactly is viewing the moral high ground and low ground?

    Funny enough this reminds me of the bloomberg article I saw today: US Revamps Africa Strategy as It Sounds Alarm on China, Russia
    https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/us-revam...ssia-1.1803009

    Apparently this question of framing moral high ground isn't working properly in Africa or other non Western parts of the world.
    Last edited by z3n; August 08, 2022 at 06:33 PM.
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  8. #4908

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    Moral high ground from the point of view of the West? Africa? Asia? South America? Who exactly is viewing the moral high ground and low ground?
    Since blowing up the plant would have impact across the globe, I'm saying everyone's point of view.

  9. #4909
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Since blowing up the plant would have impact across the globe, I'm saying everyone's point of view.
    This isn't exactly new, we already saw this behavior when the Ukrainians initiated combat by firing at Russian forces approaching the plant months ago.

    https://www.npr.org/2022/03/11/10854...t-zaporizhzhia
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  10. #4910

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Speaking of moral high ground, according to latest news (I've got only Czech article at hand right now), the commander of Russian troops in Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant had the reactors mined. They're holding a nuclear power plant hostage.

    Even ISIS has the moral high ground over Russia now.
    You can't drink blood of trans babies without a good radiation outbreak, its just not the same without it.
    But yeah, I'd rather see source on that that isn't just "just trust me bro".

  11. #4911

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    You can't drink blood of trans babies without a good radiation outbreak, its just not the same without it.
    But yeah, I'd rather see source on that that isn't just "just trust me bro".
    Between Ukraine and funny things happening to Donnie Trumpet, I've exhausted my allotment of free articles on more reputable English speaking sites, so it might take a little while....might link you the Czech article in the meantime. The Czech article here refers to Energoatom officials quoting one Valeri Vasiliev (no idea if I got the transcription right between Russian->Czech->English transcription conventions), supposedly commander of Russian forces in the plant.

  12. #4912
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    It didn't hit just the Ukrainian SSR, but a lot of other parts of USSR.
    Kinda goes to show that your knowledge of history is strictly limited by ironically Soviet-style misinformation which Kiev regime is using in its rather poor-quality propaganda.
    Yes, it wasn’t the only part hit. It also hit Ukrainian majority parts of the Russian SSR and the then Moldavian SSR, which also had a large Ukrainian population. 3.5 million deaths were in the Ukraine SSR, out of a total of 3.5-5 million. This was a genocide aimed at Ukrainians, plain and simple.

    To claim that Russia has the moral high ground is hilarious. An opinion that can only be formed if someone just transferred some rubles to your bank account.

  13. #4913

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Yes, it wasn’t the only part hit. It also hit Ukrainian majority parts of the Russian SSR and the then Moldavian SSR, which also had a large Ukrainian population. 3.5 million deaths were in the Ukraine SSR, out of a total of 3.5-5 million. This was a genocide aimed at Ukrainians, plain and simple.
    It also affected the Kazakh SSR though, and the assertion that the affected areas of the RSFSR were majority Ukrainian isn't accurate as far as I'm aware.

  14. #4914
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future


    People testified under pressure in the scandalous Amnesty International report Ministry of Information Policy of Ukraine

    The human rights organisation Amnesty International used the testimony of people in filtration camps and prisons in the temporarily occupied territories to prepare the infamous report about the war in Ukraine, meaning these people were interviewed under obvious pressure.
    ...
    In addition, materials gathered by journalists and hired volunteers were examined by camp and prison administrations and, in some cases, by officers of Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB).

  15. #4915

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    And there goes any credibility AI had. AI might as well have just cut out the middleman and asked the FSB to write the report for them.

  16. #4916
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    It also affected the Kazakh SSR though, and the assertion that the affected areas of the RSFSR were majority Ukrainian isn't accurate as far as I'm aware.
    With the exception of Ingushetia, all of the most affected areas were either in Ukraine, or had a Ukranian majority:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




  17. #4917

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-kno...-over-ukraine/

    Basic Russian propaganda we've all heard a thousand times, "Bad, bad Biden; good, good Putin; Russia strongest there is and also biggest victim; where are my rubles?"

  18. #4918

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/08/p...gon/index.html

    Makes me wonder what else is going under the radar, if you forgive the pun. HARM missiles give Ukraine capability to suppress Russian air defense. Properly used, they'll have tremendous impact on the battlefield.

  19. #4919

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    With the exception of Ingushetia, all of the most affected areas were either in Ukraine, or had a Ukranian majority:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Kind of annoying that the first map doesn't show effects over the entire USSR, which would be rather useful.

  20. #4920
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    That's an article from Ukrainska Pravda, the beacon of credibility and propaganda (??), which is disputing findings from Amnesty International. I dont believe Ukrainska Pravda, at least find a Western source, if not a more neutral one. The last one I read on the subject was from the well known Western CBC outlet, Human rights groups criticized some Ukrainian war actions. Experts say they should be taken seriously.
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