View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    103 69.59%
  • I support Russia fully.

    15 10.14%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.70%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.43%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.73%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.41%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #5181
    Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    ...
    @cyclops

    Well I suppose if you start paying their bills but in general I believe all those who fall under the rubric of 'mouthpiece' are suppose to at minimum spin if not lie for those who you know pay their bills. I would imagine you also need to guarantee a safety window and tea inspection daily as well.
    Yeah you're right as usual. And our countries have paid spinners too.

    I'd just like an honest chat about it all. Luxury of living in a partly free wealthy country I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    ...
    What if they become democratic but continue to be aggressive toward their neighbors? Democracy and imperialism are not mutually exclusive.

    I see no reason for us to trust their country ever again.
    Yes out friends in the US have brigand wars to their name too. I'd like the guilty leader Cheney punished (bit hard now) and probably Bush II as the figurehead.

    If Russia chooses war it should bear the consequences. However Russia is not to be equated with its scumbag brigand leader.

    I think you're unnecessarily harsh to laugh at the idea o a Russian nuke detonating in Russia.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  2. #5182
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Meanwhile the Ukrainian counteroffensive is proving successful, and appears to not be limited to Kherson. Ukraine has made some good advances in Kherson and appears to be pushing towards nova Kakhovka, with Russian forces north of the town at risk of encirclement. Ukraine has also made gains in Kharkiv and, surprisingly, even Donetsk.

    So much for Russia claiming to have defeated the counteroffensive on the first day. The cope on the pro-kremlin side is real. This is turning out like the Moskva, or the bombings in Crimea. “It didn’t happen” “okay, it happened, but it’s fine and damage was minimal” “okay, it sank”.

  3. #5183

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Meanwhile the Ukrainian counteroffensive is proving successful, and appears to not be limited to Kherson. Ukraine has made some good advances in Kherson and appears to be pushing towards nova Kakhovka, with Russian forces north of the town at risk of encirclement. Ukraine has also made gains in Kharkiv and, surprisingly, even Donetsk.

    So much for Russia claiming to have defeated the counteroffensive on the first day. The cope on the pro-kremlin side is real. This is turning out like the Moskva, or the bombings in Crimea. “It didn’t happen” “okay, it happened, but it’s fine and damage was minimal” “okay, it sank”.
    Considering the state of the Antonivsky bridge, Ukraine may be able to achieve local numerical superiority. I assume one of their next near term goals will be to capture the mouth of the canal to shut off the water supply to Crimea, making it more of a strategic liability for Russia than an asset. That will be much more difficult.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  4. #5184
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    That will be much more difficult.
    Indeed one assumes the unstated objective is to very carefully figure out if they can manage an offensive and not also get sucked into more than comparatively easy advances. No matter the Western aid Russia likely has the advantage in artillery and more tanks no matter their age and quality to hang about for counter attacks.

    -----------


    Edit still waiting for a list of non NATO countries that were going to guarantee the security of the Ukraine once it signed away its sovereignty. Ludicus seems be demurring so anyone, Beuller... I actually serious here this failed once and the list of potential powers that matter is 2 and one amounts to being in NATO and the other not realistic in any way.

    Also not If you can't join NATO well you really can't join the EU either. Because the proposed peace deal would seem to be boil down to Ukraine is not a sovereign country and is permanently attached to Russia and at its whim.
    Last edited by conon394; September 07, 2022 at 07:55 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  5. #5185
    saamohod's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Considering the state of the Antonivsky bridge, Ukraine may be able to achieve local numerical superiority.
    Here is some info from the local, i.e. myself.
    All the bridges are down, but Russians are utilizing pontoon ferries, at different spots, often at night. It isn't the same as having bridges for supply, but the northern bank of Dniepro isn't cut out for them.
    "Orcs were mustering, and far to the east and the south the wild peoples were arming."
    J.R.R.Tolkien.

  6. #5186

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    You're assuming they're capable of WW3.

    They are not. What make you think any of their warheads are in working condition given the performance of their commanders and rampant corruption? It'd be hilarious for them to fire ICBM only to land on Russia itself or explode outright, that's assuming any officer would rather die than live.
    LOL anti-Russia cult literally wants nuclear war. That's literally Jonestown-tier of political insanity. No wonder sane majority of humanity is either neutral or pro-Russian.
    The silver lining here is that most of NATO governments are too corrupt and would rather sell each other over to perceived enemy then lose their comfy gravy train.

  7. #5187
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    LOL anti-Russia cult literally wants nuclear war. That's literally Jonestown-tier of political insanity. No wonder sane majority of humanity is either neutral or pro-Russian.
    The silver lining here is that most of NATO governments are too corrupt and would rather sell each other over to perceived enemy then lose their comfy gravy train.

    I supposes you are aiming at coherence but I am missing it.

    "The silver lining here is that most of NATO governments are too corrupt and would rather sell each other over to perceived enemy then lose their comfy gravy train"

    And that would be which ones?
    Last edited by conon394; September 07, 2022 at 11:01 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  8. #5188
    Papay's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Regarding the Kherson counter-offensive, Ukraine has failed. Mass losses with minimal gains

    Wounded Ukrainian soldiers tell of heavy losses in push to retake Kherson - The Washington Post

    You even had an incident were an Italian journalist embedded with the Ukrainians went to a "liberated" village stepped on a mine and was rescued by Russians. Kharkiv on the other hand seems to go better but again the tactic of ignoring enemy and going straight to the target(that proved succesfull for Americans in 2003)which is Kiupiansk is very risky

  9. #5189
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    Regarding the Kherson counter-offensive, Ukraine has failed....
    Good to know, so theres definitely no threat to the Crimean water supply, and Ukraine will surrender in what ? Three days?

    And Kherson is definitely not being surrounded.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  10. #5190
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    Regarding the Kherson counter-offensive, Ukraine has failed....
    Good to know, so theres definitely no threat to the Crimean water supply, and Ukraine will surrender in what ? Three days?

    And Kherson is definitely not being surrounded.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  11. #5191
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Kherson is definitely not being surrounded.
    Kherson is not surrounded.In an interview with CNN, a British mercenary wounded in combat noted that Ukraine does not have enough forces for a full-scale counter-offensive.According to some CNN military analysts, this modest advance of Ukrainian troops is due to the fact that Russia is repositioning forces in the Donbas. Let's wait and see.

    ---
    Erdogan says 'Europe reaping what it sowed' on energy crisis.

    Erdogan can be added to Ukraine's notorious Myrotvorets list.

    ----

    EU plans to cap Russian gas price as Putin issues warning

    Putin warned that such a move would cause Moscow to cut off all energy supplies. We will not supply anything at all if it contradicts our interests,” Putin said on Wednesday at an economic forum in Vladivostok. “We will not supply gas, oil, coal, heating oil – we will not supply anything,” Putin stated.
    The European countries are divided. It remains to be seen whether the EU is willing to pay the price to see if Russia is bluffing. IMF on Twitter: "The partial shutoff of Russian natural gas ...
    The partial shutoff of gas deliveries is already affecting European growth, and a full shutdown could be substantially more severe.
    How Russian Gas in Europe Is Dwindling - The New York Times

    The average European household is facing a monthly energy bill of 500 euros ($494) next year, triple the amount in 2021, according to estimates by analysts at Goldman Sachs.
    A complete cutoff from Russian gas would push Europeans’ energy bills even higher and hit the region’s economy even harder, with experts projecting a potentially deep recession in the most exposed countries. “The market continues to underestimate the depth, the breadth and the structural repercussions of the crisis,” the Goldman Sachs analysts wrote.


    EU plans mix of grants and loans to aid Ukraine - POLITICO.eu
    Ukraine’s Zelenskyy has lashed out at Brussels for the aid delay.

    “Every day and in various ways, I remind some leaders of the European Union that Ukrainian pensioners, our displaced persons, our teachers and other people who depend on budget payments cannot be held hostage to their indecision or bureaucracy,” Zelenskyy said.
    Zelensky has every right to criticize the EU. As Europe commits economic suicide, we must not forget that Ukraine is a country that belongs to the European Union.

    According to the US State Department, there are 18 European states threatened by Russian aggression: Albania, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Georgia, Greece, Kosovo, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Montenegro, North Macedonia, Poland, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia. US Sending New Security Assistance to Ukraine, 18 Other european countries
    The U.S. said Thursday it plans to send $2.2 billion in long-term military aid to Ukraine and 18 other European countries…Pending expected congressional approval, about $1 billion of $2.2 billion would go to Ukraine and the rest will be divided among Albania, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Georgia, Greece, Kosovo, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Montenegro, North Macedonia, Poland, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia, the State Department said.
    Overall, the new U.S. assistance would bring its Ukraine-related aid total to $15.2 billion since Biden took office in January last year.




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    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  12. #5192

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    As Europe commits economic suicide
    So not much changed since 2011? I'm afraid Europe is used to economic suicide attempts in what now serves as scorched earth policy.

    That said, it's amazing how energy dependence in Central Europe is such that Putin becomes the Tzar of Russia&Central Europe, just by saying things about pipelines. Most people would expect him to be at most Tzar of Russia.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  13. #5193
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Regarding the Kherson counter-offensive, Ukraine has failed. Mass losses with minimal gains
    Wow pretty sweeping statement given you don't know what the object goals were/are and the short time frame.

    ---------------

    So Ludicus on post 5191... Err so you are really getting at that you are in favor of Putin's actions. If not only willing to have objection to them in such a way as it costs the EU nothing. Say empty statements in the UN general assembly or what?

    Also still waiting for a list of nations to guarantee Ukrainian security after it capitulates the Putin's demands at the end of a gun.
    Last edited by conon394; September 09, 2022 at 08:42 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #5194
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/polit...krise-100.html

    Virtually unchanged from the previous months, 70 percent of all respondents now want to continue supporting Ukraine , even if that means high energy prices here. 21 percent are in favor of no longer supporting Ukraine with the aim of lowering energy prices again. Similar to the situation since July, 40 percent are calling for stronger Western military support for Ukraine, 30 percent are in favor of unchanged military engagement and 24 percent want a reduction in military aid.
    Ludicus tries to paint a grim picture but support for Ukraine remains unchanged even in the face of economic difficulty.

  15. #5195
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Ukranian forces are fighting in Kupiansk right now, and have taken the villages south of it, cutting off Izium. Without Izium Russia won't be able to take Donetsk.
    Cope harder, Kremlin fascists. Slava Ukraini!


  16. #5196
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Cope harder, Kremlin fascists. Slava Ukraini!
    I wonder has Russia started e-baying cope cages for their tankies in the west?

    edit: I would move along quick after that photo got posted.

    ----

    More seriously I would hope Ukraine does not push itself to recklessness. Given the air power and probably in AA (un less Western deliveries of all types have been more than advertised and Ukraine is willing to thin out coverage elsewhere) imbalance it really can't push some kind of general offensive or profound breakthrough.

    Its notable that Germany seems to have firmed up some sales and replacements of equipment to Eastern Europe and Poland is still spending apparently like a drunken sailor on its military. Add the suddenly robust NATO deployments across the ex Pact - and I wounder if Ukraine is getting a another round of donations from the ex pact countries. I mean for example Poland now given its US and ROK tank purchases more less all its legacy tanks are pointless and better off shuffled along.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  17. #5197
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Ludicus tries to paint a grim picture
    The picture is grim for Europe.By the way, I'm not a Goldman's Sachs analyst.Or the IMF.
    ---
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    support for Ukraine remains unchanged
    Poor Ukraine.As I have already mentioned, the west prepares to plunder post-war Ukraine with neoliberal shock therapy: Ukraine Recovery Conference.
    The Ukraine’s war effort is supported by the US and the EU. It will not last forever. In anticipation of this, the neoliberal attack to Ukraine is about to begin. Ukraine needs 'radical' reform to sustain war effort,
    the emergency measures had run their course and Ukraine needed to adopt a more strategic approach.
    To this end, the aim should be to pursue extensive radical deregulation of economic activity. Rogoff’s mantra: what is good for bondholders is good for the world.
    It is better to start collecting dividends now, when no one is quite sure how this war will end: either with the Ukrainian capitulation, with a negotiated peace, with a limited or total nuclear war, which will be the end of humanity.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  18. #5198

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post

    And that would be which ones?
    Judging by recent energy deal, most of them.
    I mean is Biden going to fire nukes at a city where his crackhead litter has business interests? Hell naw.
    Western politicians always prioritize their personal/family interests over those of their country.

  19. #5199
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    A grim winter will test Europe's support for Ukraine like ... - CNN

    Some Western European countries, most notably Germany and France, have said publicly that dialogue will have to exist between the West and Moscow.
    Citizens will feel the cost-of-living crunch across the continent. Some will have to make choices between heating their homes and eating.
    If it were the case in the USA, the war would already be over.

    Economic anxiety is palpable across Europe Cost of living crisis set to prompt social unrest across Europe

    Over the winter, it wouldn't come as a surprise if some of the developed nations in Europe start to see more serious forms of civil unrest
    And quite frankly, it has long been clear that NATO expansion would lead to tragedy.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  20. #5200
    Papay's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Wow pretty sweeping statement given you don't know what the object goals were/are and the short time frame.

    ---------------

    So Ludicus on post 5191... Err so you are really getting at that you are in favor of Putin's actions. If not only willing to have objection to them in such a way as it costs the EU nothing. Say empty statements in the UN general assembly or what?

    Also still waiting for a list of nations to guarantee Ukrainian security after it capitulates the Putin's demands at the end of a gun.
    The goal was to reach nova kakhovka which failed with big losses. In Kharkiv situation looks better since Ukranian forces have advanved rather deep and threaten both Izium and Kiupiansk. We will wait few days to see if they manage to capture those cities or if Russians will counter attack in the area

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