View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    70 66.04%
  • I support Russia fully.

    12 11.32%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 3.77%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    6 5.66%
  • Not sure.

    7 6.60%
  • I don't care.

    7 6.60%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #4941
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    A prime example of the downplaying is equating torture, breaking bodies, and other unspeakable acts to simply "returning fire".
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  2. #4942
    saamohod's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    A prime example of the downplaying is equating torture, breaking bodies, and other unspeakable acts to simply "returning fire".
    I believe you harbor the same indignation towards Russia's savagery in Bucha, just to name one such case? Or maybe to the levelling of Mariupol along with tens of thousands of its Russian-speaking inhabitants, just to name one city?
    I somehow missed your outrage in this thread towards Russia's glaring actions, but it must be somewhere. I wouldn't assume you're just being in love with Russia no matter what.
    "Orcs were mustering, and far to the east and the south the wild peoples were arming."
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  3. #4943
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by saamohod View Post
    I believe you harbor the same indignation towards Russia's savagery in Bucha, just to name one such case? Or maybe to the levelling of Mariupol along with tens of thousands of its Russian-speaking inhabitants, just to name one city?
    I somehow missed your outrage in this thread towards Russia's glaring actions, but it must be somewhere. I wouldn't assume you're just being in love with Russia no matter what.
    There are many here in the west who are quite outraged at Russia and Bucha. But do you wish that nobody talks about the victims in the Donbas? Because there is just about zero discussion here in the west about them, aside from those reports which are largely unread and unnoticed. The more interesting question to me, is why are those in Bucha more important; is it perhaps because they live close to Kyiv, and those in the Donbas live close to Russia? Do western Ukrainians think lesser of the russian speaking, possibly ethnic russians living in the Donbas?
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  4. #4944
    saamohod's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    There are many here in the west who are quite outraged at Russia and Bucha. But do you wish that nobody talks about the victims in the Donbas?
    I do, that's why the second thing I mentioned after Bucha was Mariupol, where 20 thousands of its inhabitants were killed during the city assault by Russian army, hundreds of thousands displaced and unknown number ended up in concentration... sorry, filtration camps.

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    The more interesting question to me, is why are those in Bucha more important; is it perhaps because they live close to Kyiv, and those in the Donbas live close to Russia?
    You do realize nothing even remotely similar to Bucha ever happened to Donbass residents, don't you?


    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    Do western Ukrainians think lesser of the russian speaking, possibly ethnic russians living in the Donbas?
    I've no idea, I'm from the south of Ukraine. From a Russian-speaking city where no one ever gave a damn about such a vague concept as ethnicity, because here everybody is mixed in one way or another (same as in Donbass by the way) and the "Russian ethnicity" card has only been played by Russia since it started extending its borders at the expense of Ukraine. A card to confuse the westerners into thinking that there are some clear cut ethnicities here and that the language people speak define their "ethnicity". I'm Russian-speaking my whole life and I want Russia to suffer the same fate as the Nazi Germany did. The majority of my Russian-speaking friends and relatives share the same vision.
    "Orcs were mustering, and far to the east and the south the wild peoples were arming."
    J.R.R.Tolkien.

  5. #4945
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Ah yes, everyone’s favourite propaganda: “muh 8 years of donbass((((“

  6. #4946

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    How does a strategic strike on a Russian military base and critical staging ground for the Russian operation in Ukraine equate to a Ukrainian desire to ethnically cleanse Crimea?
    Currently, it isn't even clear that the Ukrainians can launch a ground assault anyway (they haven't even retaken Kherson yet, so such expectations seem premature). However, the problem is how the Ukrainians intend to deal with the issue that a majority of the Crimean population may not be welcoming of reintegration into Ukraine, which leads to the question of how to square commitment to democracy with a commitment to territorial integrity over a hostile population.
    I do, however, think in hindsight that I was reading too much into Twitter opinions, which is not very smart.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    And the Sudetenland genocide? Are you suggesting the exaggerated German reports of the Czechoslovak government suppressing the Sudeten Germans in 1938, or of the reinstated Czechoslovak government's banishment of all Sudetenland (and all Czechoslovak Germans for that matter) from the country in 1945? As far as I am aware, the Ukrainians have not lashed out against ethnic Russians living in the Western Donbass or the other parts of de facto Ukraine, so what inclination would there be to suppress and drive out the ones living on the Crimean Peninsula?
    The latter, which under pretty much any other circumstances would almost certainly been considered genocide or at the least ethnic cleansing.

    As I understand it, there aren't really any significant ethnic Russian populations in western Donbass or most of mainland Ukraine, just that a lot of the ethnic Ukrainians speak Russian (similar to Ireland where most of the 'ethnic Irish' population speak English, but are distinctly not English). The situation in Crimea is a bit different.

  7. #4947
    Mithradates's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    There are many here in the west who are quite outraged at Russia and Bucha. But do you wish that nobody talks about the victims in the Donbas? Because there is just about zero discussion here in the west about them, aside from those reports which are largely unread and unnoticed.
    Maybe because Russia steals the spotlight with the 26,000 suspected war crimes cases, thousands of dead civilians and millions of refugees.

    None of this would have happened without Russia's 2014 invasion.

  8. #4948

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Maybe because Russia steals the spotlight with the 26,000 suspected war crimes cases, thousands of dead civilians and millions of refugees.

    None of this would have happened without Russia's 2014 invasion.
    Did you read your own link? its based off claims from Ukrainian regime, which were neither verified nor substantiated with any evidence.

  9. #4949
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Did you read your own link? its based off claims from Ukrainian regime, which were neither verified nor substantiated with any evidence.
    Thats why these are suspected war crime cases.
    Thirteen cases have been submitted to courts and seven verdicts have been issued
    it is an ongoing investigation.

  10. #4950

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Thats why these are suspected war crime cases.
    it is an ongoing investigation.
    It doesn't matter because it is done by Ukrainian proxy regime, which provided 0 evidence for its claims, all while ignoring rules of war on its own by both mistreating POWs and targeting civilian areas with banned munitions.

  11. #4951
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    banned munitions
    Which ones?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

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  12. #4952
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    There is much downplaying and denying when it comes to Ukraines human rights violations; you realize Ukraine "topped" the Russians within the Donbas for the past 8 years? It is right there in the reports. For example; here the government in Ukraine was responsible for 68% of the human rights violations.
    Again citing old reports from years ago doesn't help when it's 2022. For the past 8 years both sides have violated ceasefires and very likely hit civilians in their tit for that attacks on each other. That's been fairly obvious. And yet in the scope of atrocities committed Russia still tops out in the end.
    I mean right now Russia has and still is deporting Ukrainians to Russian territory. That is outright illegal under the Fourth Geneva Conventions. Russia handing out citizenship and passports for the purpose of attempting annexation is again another violation. Combine those two and you get what we call ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing is one of the worst human rights violations you can commit besides genocide itself.

    I can just let look at the Fourth Genea Conventions and just blindly pick a section and Russia has likely violated it. Those Ukrainians just don't seem to be able to hold a candle light to those Russians.

  13. #4953

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    And yet in the scope of atrocities committed Russia still tops out in the end.
    Now try and provide actual evidence for that statement.

  14. #4954
    saamohod's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Now try and provide actual evidence for that statement.
    You're just trolling, aren't you?
    "Orcs were mustering, and far to the east and the south the wild peoples were arming."
    J.R.R.Tolkien.

  15. #4955

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by saamohod View Post
    You're just trolling, aren't you?
    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Will need something more substantial then Kiev regime's word to back up claims made by Vanoi.

  16. #4956
    saamohod's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Will need something more substantial then Kiev regime's word to back up claims made by Vanoi.
    Do you consider Russian actions in Mariupol or Bucha (to name just a few) extraordinary claims? Or maybe you're trying to push the narrative that something similar in scale Ukrainians did too?
    "Orcs were mustering, and far to the east and the south the wild peoples were arming."
    J.R.R.Tolkien.

  17. #4957

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by saamohod View Post
    Do you consider Russian actions in Mariupol or Bucha (to name just a few) extraordinary claims? Or maybe you're trying to push the narrative that something similar in scale Ukrainians did too?
    I'm just asking for actual evidence. Russia saying something about what Ukraine did or Ukraine saying something that Russia did does not constitute evidence in on itself.

  18. #4958
    saamohod's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    I'm just asking for actual evidence.
    Oh, in this case I've answered you question.
    Mariupol and Bucha, to name just a few.
    Plus ongoing efforts to annex the whole southern region of Ukraine, my homeplace included.
    "Orcs were mustering, and far to the east and the south the wild peoples were arming."
    J.R.R.Tolkien.

  19. #4959
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Again citing old reports from years ago doesn't help when it's 2022. For the past 8 years both sides have violated ceasefires and very likely hit civilians in their tit for that attacks on each other. That's been fairly obvious. And yet in the scope of atrocities committed Russia still tops out in the end.
    I mean right now Russia has and still is deporting Ukrainians to Russian territory. That is outright illegal under the Fourth Geneva Conventions. Russia handing out citizenship and passports for the purpose of attempting annexation is again another violation. Combine those two and you get what we call ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing is one of the worst human rights violations you can commit besides genocide itself.

    I can just let look at the Fourth Genea Conventions and just blindly pick a section and Russia has likely violated it. Those Ukrainians just don't seem to be able to hold a candle light to those Russians.
    Reports from 2021 are certainly not "years ago", grammatically speaking the correct term is "from a year ago", after all years imply plural and year is singular.
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  20. #4960
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    It doesn't matter because it is done by Ukrainian proxy regime, which provided 0 evidence for its claims, all while ignoring rules of war on its own by both mistreating POWs and targeting civilian areas with banned munitions.
    "Ignoring rules of war" oh no, there is no war remember? Its a Special Military Operation so they are not POWs, they are POSMOs, thank you.

    Come to think of it, now that The Russians are recruiting convicts from prisons, they are technically prisoners even before the Ukrainians capture them.. so they will become.. P-POSMOs? P2SMOs?

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