Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

[Ludicus]

Germany likely actually has no tanks to send in a useful time frame. My guess is Poland and Finland probably do

Why not? Germany has about 350 Leopard 2 tanks today, and that 's because Germany's defence industry is banned by law from producing them for stock-keeping. Rheinmetall has 22 Leopard 2 and 88 older Leopard 1 vehicles. As I said, Poland Expects German Accord For Tank Deliveries To Ukraine

So right Ludicus the Ukrainians should not even try shoot down Russian missiles so that what they were actually targeting gets hit instead.

But who says so? When the anti-aircraft defenses fire on the airspace of their own cities, these cities end up suffering the consequences, as a collateral damage. S300 missiles fly at low altitudes, and are sometimes detected too late, when there is no time to shoot them down while they are still far away. It was for telling the truth that Zelensky's advisor was fired. He should have said that Russia spends one or half a million euros on a missile to hit civilian buildings, but he decided to tell the truth.

This is the twelfth missile campaign that the Russians have launched in Ukraine, which, if memory serves, started in October, and it was not the largest, but one of the largest, with about 80 missiles. What we have seen is that there have been very few civilian casualties from these missile waves.The casualties that there have been have generally been caused by falling air defense missiles or Russian missiles shot down by the air defense system itself. This is due to Russian action, but we have to realize that when the air defense fires too late, over the airspace of the city itself, naturally the city ends up suffering the consequences.

[PointOfViewGun]

But who says so? When the anti-aircraft defenses fire on the airspace of their own cities, these cities end up suffering the consequences, as a collateral damage. S300 missiles fly at low altitudes, and are sometimes detected too late, when there is no time to shoot them down while they are still far away. It was for telling the truth that Zelensky's advisor was fired. He should have said that Russia spends one or half a million euros on a missile to hit civilian buildings, but he decided to tell the truth.

This is the twelfth missile campaign that the Russians have launched in Ukraine, which, if memory serves, started in October, and it was not the largest, but one of the largest, with about 80 missiles. What we have seen is that there have been very few civilian casualties from these missile waves. The casualties that there have been have generally been caused by falling air defense missiles or Russian missiles shot down by the air defense system itself. This is due to Russian action, but we have to realize that when the air defense fires too late, over the airspace of the city itself, naturally the city ends up suffering the consequences.

Except the advisor did not know that it was due to Ukrainian air defense that downed the missile. In fact, his description of it's strike was objectively false to give any credit to his account. We also already know Russia sends expensive missiles at civilian targets. You yourself admitted as much. You simply absurdly tried to defend it as Russia trying to stop Ukrainian trains from running.

The reason for few casualties is not due to lack of trying but due to incompetence and Russia's inability to disable Ukrainian AA systems. Compared to a missile reaching its intended civilian targets any proper military officer will choose to down the missile regardless. While you try to defend Russia's raping of Ukraine here a Russian anchorman was rejoicing about this attack, calling it fireworks and saying that it felt good.

[Cyclops]

Ukraine isn't needed to defend anything here. Besides, this is US base central, if you haven't noticed

So you're saying Hellas has been absorbed by NATO, that means 9according to Putin) you've been taken over by satanic Jewish nazis who hate Russia? Nooo.

[conon394]

I've wondered if the US had any leftover stocks of M-60s they could gift Ukraine. They obviously aren't being used anymore. I also wonder if the US still possess older M1 Abrams that they could give away.

The US has thousands of M1s even back to first gen in the bone yards (and being well funded and arid locations in good shape) just not sure how fast they can refurbed. Actually capacity is likely strained with both the Polish orders and US SEP3/4 upgrades. Canonical number in storage tossed out is over 3000 to 4000 but varies by source as does the number produced so even netting out the active service ones is a dead end.

M60s are tricky I spent some serious hours looking into that. Easy answer is no the US dumped them and only saved old M1s. But there are if you look hard enough clear shots of the bone yards with district M60s sitting along side M1 collections exist. I don't know what to make of that - obfuscation? I mean Taiwan still operates the M60 is the US just trying to make it hard for China to guess if we have spare parts and replacements available for Taiwan in a war (or for other us allies as well)?

Note here in this link clear picture of M60s in the foreground

https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/...rmy-equipment/

I had wider shot from a different angle with a line of them... but really can't track down any actual inventory numbers.

[Kyriakos]

So you're saying Hellas has been absorbed by NATO, that means 9according to Putin) you've been taken over by satanic Jewish nazis who hate Russia? Nooo.

The nazis refer to Ukraine, not in general - going by the Bandera commemorations and the Azov brigades.
Then again, as I've noted before, I doubt Ukraine has the worst nazi problem in the continent. Other countries have their nazi officers/soldiers still presented as national heroes (eg Croatia and pretty much all other allies of Germany in ww2).

[Loyt]

Ukrainian adviser Arestovich fired for saying the truth. On live TV he had admitted that the missile that hit a skyscraper in downtown Dnipro was the result of an action by the Ukrainian defense.

Not fired, but resigned himself. And not for telling true, but for telling unconfirmed hearsay as true. He is known blabber and was criticized many times for spreading gossips, this time scandal was just too big.

[Loyt]

S300 missiles fly at low altitudes, and are sometimes detected too late, when there is no time to shoot them down while they are still far away.

Russians used naval rocked X-22 for that strike on civilian house. Target may not have been intentional, as that rocket is not very precise then used not at sea. But russians doesn't care too much who it kills.
And S300 doesn't fly low, they fly fast, that makes them almost impossible to intercept. X-22 is pretty fast too.

[Peresvet]

.
Who are the “bravest or the most cowardly”, I am afraid we will never know, because NATO's armed forces have not yet directly entered the conflict. But if it were not for the help of NATO, of which Ukraine has been a de facto member for many years, Ukraine would have already lost the war. By the way, since you claim to be Russian, remember that Putin asks you to return to your country. In a Washington Post interview, a few months ago, Zelensky called on Western countries to shut their borders to all Russian nationals — regardless of their stance on their country’s invasion of Ukraine,
Some critics have argued that banning all Russians would unfairly impact those who have left their country because they disagree with President Vladimir Putin’s government and his decision to attack Ukraine.
Zelensky said such distinctions don’t matter: “Whichever kind of Russian … make them go to Russia.”

Well, Peresvest, he said: “whichever kind of Russian”. I’m afraid that Zelensky does not have a particularly high opinion of you- or of all Russians, whoever they are.
--

A step that would only be possible with German approval. On that day, there will be no reason for Germany not to send its own leopards.

At the same time, Zelensky provides asylum to adequate Russians, such as Nevzorov and Ponomarev. At the same time, he allows russian nationalistic batallion - the Legion of Free Russia to exist, which fights in the ranks of the armed forces of Ukraine. Sooner or later, the Russians who were forced to leave will come back and participate in the change of the Putin regime and the formation of new authorities in Russia, and I am also going to do this.

[Mithradates]

The Chancellor is apparently ready to deliver "Leopard 2" tanks to Ukraine. But only on the condition that the USA also provide battle tanks.

According to the Süddeutsche Zeitung , Chancellor Olaf Scholz is apparently ready to deliver Leopard main battle tanks to Ukraine, but on one condition. In a phone call with US President Joe Biden on Tuesday, he is said to have made it clear that Germany could only give in to the pressure to deliver if the US in turn delivered Abrams -type main battle tanks . Scholz has always emphasized that Germany will not go it alone when it comes to military support for Ukraine.
...
In the tank question, the pressure on Scholz is also growing in the SPD ranks. Wolfgang Hellmich, defense policy spokesman for the parliamentary group, assumes that Germany will join the allies and deliver Leopard main battle tanks.

Leopard and Abrams tanks!

[Stario]

At this stage this war is over. There is nothing that can be done to salvage Ukraine, it's economy is toast - there is zero economic growth in Ukraine. Even if war stopped today Ukraine is a hopeless train wreck that will continue to crash over the next year. Ukraine is only alive today due to the West pumping money into them.
But eventually when Europe's economy starts to implode on itself- throwing away money at a failed state will not be feasible.
What's happening now is only prolonging the suffering in Ukraine.
This is a proxy conflict between NATO/USA and Russia, and Ukraine is being sacrificed because NATO/USA wanted to weaken Russia. And they have failed misserably.
Russia had 28% growth in income drive from energy sales; 2% reduction in GDP (remember the woke west were predicting 15% reduction in GDP and total collapse of Russian economy), inflation in Russia is about 1/3 that of Europe. Russian economy is firing on all cylinders...
Ukraine is a defeated nation. Russia is so far ahead of them in terms of strategic thinking. There is 300k troops mobilised equipped w modern equipment ready to go right now. Meanwhile, England is celebrating sending 14 challenger2 tanks!?! 😆🤣😂
At end of the day it's the quality of the Leaderships, staff planning, quality of the soldier, quality of training - Russia owns all of these areas...

[Coughdrop addict]

Clap your hands if you believe!

Back in the real world we laugh at Russia as your brigands run away sobbing and peeing their pants. https://www.newsweek.com/russian-tro...r-taxi-1774784

In other news, Putin better stay away from any windows.

https://www.newsweek.com/putin-criti...girkin-1774970

[conon394]

@Stario

Or a diffrent take on the Russian economy not based on Putin's quotes

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/07/22...oaArAbEALw_wcB

[Loyt]

At this stage this war is over.

Russian Defence minister Shoigu used to say same thing in march 2022. War is mostly over, all goals of SVO mostly reached, everything goes according to plan.
Somehow it's still going according to plan almost a year later. I guess it is very convoluted plan.

[conon394]

The Chancellor is apparently ready to deliver "Leopard 2" tanks to Ukraine. But only on the condition that the USA also provide battle tanks.



Leopard and Abrams tanks!

German leadership is being absurd at this point. Given the recent and updated announcements by the US, Sweden, France, the UK the Baltics, etc. and Polish threats to just ignore Germany what are they getting out of this soap opera? I mean sure maybe Biden will put 6 old M1s on a planes and fly to the Polish Boarder but the Leopard is the obvious rational choice to cap off what looks like the Ukraine being able to equip 2 or 3 new mechanized brigades. And Poland and Finland seem ready to hand over working ones not dusted off from the bone yard stuff.

Denmark's decision to essential transfer all it s in existing and ordered Caesar 115mm guns to Ukraine really should shame German leaders to action.

[The spartan]

I always thought it was smart to have the Euro-NATO countries to provide equipment (particularly heavy equipment) to Ukraine and have the US compensate the allies for their contributions. Seems to make more logistical sense.

At this stage this war is over. There is nothing that can be done to salvage Ukraine, it's economy is toast - there is zero economic growth in Ukraine. Even if war stopped today Ukraine is a hopeless train wreck that will continue to crash over the next year. Ukraine is only alive today due to the West pumping money into them.

For all practical purposes, the war is not over. Not only that, but I'd say this is already a political defeat for Russia. They thought Ukraine would roll over, probably like the Afghan government did when facing the Taliban, but it didn't. They have been rejected by the Ukrainian people. And now, all Russia can do is hurt the Ukrainians and make them even more resentful of Russian aggression. Every bomb dropped on Ukraine only makes the Russians more hated. Ukraine is no longer a viable client state for Russia.

But eventually when Europe's economy starts to implode on itself- throwing away money at a failed state will not be feasible.
What's happening now is only prolonging the suffering in Ukraine.

Don't buy the Russian propaganda; the combined economies of the US and EU is MASSIVE compared to Russia. The % burden to their economies to support this conflict is a pittance to what Russia will have to commit. Russia would have a "Total War" (see what I did there ) economy before the US and EU would even be considered partially mobilized war economy.

This is a proxy conflict between NATO/USA and Russia, and Ukraine is being sacrificed because NATO/USA wanted to weaken Russia. And they have failed misserably.

Sacrificed? You know that Ukraine can surrender whenever it wants, yeah? It's not like NATO has a gun to Zelensky's head and forcing Ukrainian conscripts out into the meat grinder, while the Ukrainians just want to go home and give up. Ukraine wants to fight. And as long as they want to fight, I think they should be supported in this desire. Russia is an unwelcome invader. If Ukraine wants to give up, that's their decision to make as well.

Ukraine is a defeated nation. Russia is so far ahead of them in terms of strategic thinking. There is 300k troops mobilised equipped w modern equipment ready to go right now. Meanwhile, England is celebrating sending 14 challenger2 tanks!?!

To Kiev in three days, amirite? RIP to the VDV at the Hostomel airport.

[StarDreamer]

At this stage this war is over. There is nothing that can be done to salvage Ukraine, it's economy is toast - there is zero economic growth in Ukraine. Even if war stopped today Ukraine is a hopeless train wreck that will continue to crash over the next year. Ukraine is only alive today due to the West pumping money into them.
But eventually when Europe's economy starts to implode on itself- throwing away money at a failed state will not be feasible.
What's happening now is only prolonging the suffering in Ukraine.
This is a proxy conflict between NATO/USA and Russia, and Ukraine is being sacrificed because NATO/USA wanted to weaken Russia. And they have failed misserably.
Russia had 28% growth in income drive from energy sales; 2% reduction in GDP (remember the woke west were predicting 15% reduction in GDP and total collapse of Russian economy), inflation in Russia is about 1/3 that of Europe. Russian economy is firing on all cylinders...
Ukraine is a defeated nation. Russia is so far ahead of them in terms of strategic thinking. There is 300k troops mobilised equipped w modern equipment ready to go right now. Meanwhile, England is celebrating sending 14 challenger2 tanks!?! ������
At end of the day it's the quality of the Leaderships, staff planning, quality of the soldier, quality of training - Russia owns all of these areas...

Still waiting for that last kick that will bring the whole building down, eh? Still waiting for that big attack that would sweep that non-existant army away. Or is the Russian army too weak to defeat a non-existant one?

[PointOfViewGun]

After the war Ukraine will present an opportunity for EU states and their companies as EU will be financing rebuilding efforts and a lot of European companies will be the ones to partake in it.

By the way, anyone spotted this massive Russian offensive that was supposed to start a week ago as Stario claimed?

[Cyclops]

After the war Ukraine will present an opportunity for EU states and their companies as EU will be financing rebuilding efforts and a lot of European companies will be the ones to partake in it.

By the way, anyone spotted this massive Russian offensive that was supposed to start a week ago as Stario claimed?

Well the Russian leader is sooooo far ahead, they accelerated to the end of time, and looped around again. They actually beat Ukraine 3 times already this way, they just enjoy so much they keep doing it again. This also explains why Putin looks tens of billions of years old.

Jokes aside, do Russian apologists take this seriously or do they have to post this stuff because their families are under threat? We should work out a code so they can signal us with emojis.

[Stario]

Russian Defence minister Shoigu used to say same thing in march 2022. War is mostly over, all goals of SVO mostly reached, everything goes according to plan.
Somehow it's still going according to plan almost a year later. I guess it is very convoluted plan.

But it is going according to plan for the Russians. This war is akin to Germany loosing at Stalingrad and then following it up w a loss at Battle of Kursk in 1943. At this point Germany lost the war; yet they fought for almost 2 more years trying to prevent the inevitable but at what cost? (throwing children, women and old men to the meat grinder).
Sure the Ukranians can emulate the Germans of WW2 by fighting for a few more years but the cost of human life (ukranian mostly) and sufferings will be tremendous imo.

Well the Russian leader is sooooo far ahead, they accelerated to the end of time, and looped around again. They actually beat Ukraine 3 times already this way, they just enjoy so much they keep doing it again. This also explains why Putin looks tens of billions of years old.

Jokes aside, do Russian apologists take this seriously or do they have to post this stuff because their families are under threat? We should work out a code so they can signal us with emojis.

You simps have selective memories. So REMEMBER that when war ends w Ukraine's defeat. I will be back to tell you specifically @Cyclops "I TOLD YOU SO."
Otherwise no more post (I've said all I have to say), from me in this tread till after Ukraine's defeat. See you then...

[The spartan]

Dude, that sounds like some serious cope. It is pretty clear that the Russians were not expecting the war to take this long. The fact they are having to mobilize twice months after the start of the war shows they were not manpower ready for the tasks the war is demanding of them. Offensives are slow slogs. They lost significant territory they not only previous controlled, but they claimed to ANNEX. They said Kherson was Russian. Well, it's not Russian now, is it? That was all "according to the plan"? Don't you feel like you are post hoc rationalizing?