View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

Voters
148. You may not vote on this poll
  • I support Ukraine fully.

    103 69.59%
  • I support Russia fully.

    15 10.14%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.70%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.43%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.73%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.41%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #4601
    Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    ...which is why Zelenskyy's children need to be handed to Putin at once. Got it.

    I have not seen a single post thst justifies Russian aggression. Morally Russia's brigand/terror attack is wrong, and pragmatically we gain more by kicking Putins face in than appeasement.
    Defence of this scumbag seems to be a balancing act between "the West is immoral and Russia's just being Russia. If we do nothing it'll be ok and hey look! Bay of Pigs!". Thankfully the braindead "UKR nazis are real Nazis, Wagner are just misunderstood" garbage seems to have died off.
    Last edited by Cyclops; June 30, 2022 at 10:16 AM.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  2. #4602
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    I don't care about some sort of European mega state, commies gonna commie. We could crush Russia without any NATO allies, and our umbrella of protection is the only thing Europe has to stop a Russian advance. Boohoo for Europe, but we are your only salvation. So yes, taking on two more whiny European countries who refuse to pay what they agreed to pay for defense is definitely an added burden on the US, especially when said European states do not pay their dues and then gloat about all their glorious social programs and mock the US when we guarantee your defense and have since 1945. The chickens are coming home to roost.

    Depends, do you mean where NATO "allies" default on their promises and have no consequences or where Trump predicted Germany and eventually all of Western Europe would be reliant upon Russian energy imports and now they are screwed. I don't really need to ask since both of those predictions have come true. I do love the smug European attitude though, two centuries of world wars and genocide has not dampened European arrogance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    We shouldn't be, but sellout America last idiots like Biden have sold us out. But still, no. Europe, for once take care of your own problems without an American bank roll.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    And I am here to tell you I disagree with and reject whatever "logic" has gone into Euro-intereventionalism. Our corrupt globalist overlords surely act out of self interest.
    One aspect of American isolationism I would agree with is to stop poking around in other countries' affairs to the point that the CIA is aiding coups against democratically elected governments in places like Iran or Guatemala. On top of that, regime change against dictators in Iraq and Syria has proven to be a total disaster. The only places we had a tiny bit of moral high ground after WWII was in aiding desperate allies who were attacked by an aggressive neighbor, such as our ally South Korea in the Korean War, South Vietnam in the Vietnam War (although the entire war began under false Gulf of Tonkin BS premise), and Kuwait in the Gulf War.

    Also, I find it funny that your "globalist overlords" (Jews? LOL) are in reality the rotten insatiable military industrial complex that you love and protect so much here, the one that Eisenhower direly warned us about at the end of his presidency. Multinational corporate interests are huge driving forces for instability and conflict at times, but the biggest culprits in that realm are defense contractors, arms manufacturers, and of course the fossil fuel industry (another beloved one of the right-wing, even when they're squeezing us all at the pump charging us a gazillion dollars per gallon of gas).

    Your take on America leaving its role in the world, in particular Europe, is laughable, something a middle schooler who got Ds on his report card would say with complete confidence. I don't like American imperialism projected across the globe, but your post is insane and totally detached from reality in terms of preserving basic stability in global economics. Another World War in Europe would be an utter disaster of epic proportion for the entire global economy; the war in Ukraine is already seriously aggravating shipment of essentials like wheat around the world. Germany has screwed itself with reliance on Russian natural gas, but a war across Northern and Eastern Europe involving Russia would affect supply chains everywhere, including the USA. Again, there's a reason why the United States has not left NATO. The only reason Trump wanted to undermine NATO is because he has some sort of bizarre relationship with Vladimir Putin, one of the few foreign figures he refuses to criticize and seems genuinely terrified of him for whatever reason (possibly leverage of some kind, but I'll stop there since it's off-topic).

    Also, I'm not a fan of Biden, he's rather limp and weak, not a progressive champion for the left, but I find it hilarious that you have singled him out for criticism on this. Biden is no different from every US president in the last half century in their unwavering support for NATO, including Obama, George W. Bush, Clinton, George H. W. Bush, Reagan, etc. It's not even a conservative versus liberal thing as you seem to suggest. Trump is the sole aberration in that regard, an archaic throwback to pre-World War One attitudes when the world was an enormously different place without nuclear weapons and Mutually Assured Destruction.

  3. #4603
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Sweden and Finland's entry into NATO was obtained with the eternal sacrifice of the Kurds.
    What "sacrifice"? We can't be responsible for everyone's well-being on earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Sweden, which saw itself as a "humanitarian power", had to end the embargo on arms sales to Turkey, extradite "suspected terrorists" from pro-Turkish organizations (which is an ambiguous issue), and investigate and ban the activity of some of them.
    No innocent citizen is going to be extradited and investigations will result in exactly nothing. As for arms sales, how could a NATO member ban arm export to another? "humanitarian power" is a laughable idea for a small country like Sweden and it brought nothing but civil unrest.

  4. #4604
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    Ukraine didn't start this war
    Absolutely. On a related note, do you know what Biden's religious mentor thinks?
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    So yes, taking on two more whiny European countries who refuse to pay what they agreed to pay for defense is definitely an added burden on the US... The chickens are coming home to roost.
    It looks like you've been reading the Politico,To save NATO, destroy it - POLITICO
    (…) Up until Russia’s February 24 assault on Ukraine, France and Germany were still fantasizing about “strategic autonomy”
    Indeed, just weeks before the Russian invasion, prominent German politicians, including Annalena Baerbock, now foreign minister, were demanding that the U.S. withdraw all of its nuclear warheads from German soil.
    Overnight, the same German leaders who had for years ignored U.S. pleas to stop starving Germany’s military of resources and start contributing more to NATO defense were transformed into true believers.
    Yet like all foxhole conversions, Germany’s come-to-Jesus moment smells more of fear than of conviction.
    Regardless of who succeeds Biden as American president, it’s a safe bet that person is unlikely to share his soft spot for Europe
    --
    --
    Some thoughts on the subject.We all know that Empires do not admit themselves either as subaltern spaces, or in egalitarian relations.
    What Westerners call the West or Western civilization is a geopolitical space that emerged in the 16th century and expanded continuously into the 20th century.
    On the eve of WW I, about 90% of the globe was Western or Western-dominated: Europe, Russia, the Americas, Africa, Oceania, and much of Asia (with the partial exceptions of Japan and China). From then on, the West began to contract: first with the Russian revolution of 1917 and the emergence of the Soviet bloc, then, from mid-century on, with the decolonization movements. Terrestrial space became a field of intense dispute. Meanwhile, what Westerners understood by the West was changing. It began as Christianity, colonialism, then capitalism and imperialism, and then metamorphosed into democracy, human rights, decolonization, self-determination, "rules-based international relations" - always making it clear that the rules were established by the West and were only followed when they served its interests - and finally globalization.

    By the middle of the last century, the West had shrunk so much that several newly independent countries made the decision to align themselves neither with the West nor with the bloc that had emerged as its rival, the Soviet bloc. Thus, was created, from 1955-61, the Non-Aligned Movement. History and Evolution of Non-Aligned Movement

    With the end of the Soviet bloc in 1991, the West seemed to go through a time of enthusiastic expansion. It was the time of Gorbachev and his desire for Russia to become part of the "common home" of Europe, with the support of G.W. Bush, a desire reaffirmed by Putin when he took power. It was a short historical period, and recent events show that in the meantime the "size" of the West has undergone a drastic contraction. In the wake of the Ukraine war, the West decided, on its own initiative, that only those who applied sanctions on Russia would be Westerners. They are now about one-fifth of the UN’s members, which is not even 15% of the world's population. If it continues this path, the West may even disappear. The Ukraine war is the great accelerator for the contraction of the West. A new generation of non-aligned countries is emerging, in fact aligned with the power that the West wants to isolate, China. The BRICS, the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, the Eurasian Economic Forum are, among others, the new faces of the non-West. What comes next? we don't know.

    ---
    About the current state of the war: a month ago, the US, Britain, and NATO had convinced Zelensky that victory was possible and imminent: Russia would be so weakened that it would no sooner dare threaten Ukraine or anyone else. But in the meantime, the situation has changed on the ground and even the long-range missiles provided by London and Washington could not prevent the reversal of the military situation in favor of the Russians. Mariupol has fallen and the Donbas is practically all in Putin's hands, his first declared military objective.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  5. #4605
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Turkey pushes Finland and Sweden on extradition after deal

    Ukraine war live | World | The Guardian



    Swedish and Finnish concessions to Turkish demands are a denial of the foreign policy of both countries. Sweden, which saw itself as a "humanitarian power", had to end the embargo on arms sales to Turkey, extradite "suspected terrorists" from pro-Turkish organizations (which is an ambiguous issue), and investigate and ban the activity of some of them. Meanwhile, Erdogan has guaranteed the purchase of a few more F-16 fighter jets to bomb the Kurds. Although NATO likes to classify itself as an alliance of democracies, Turkey (and not only this country), does not meet the necessary requirements for this classification to be indisputable. Sweden and Finland's entry into NATO was obtained with the eternal sacrifice of the Kurds.
    It is indeed unfortunate, but it is far preferable to being invaded by Fascist Russia.

  6. #4606
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Turkey pushes Finland and Sweden on extradition after deal

    Ukraine war live | World | The Guardian



    Swedish and Finnish concessions to Turkish demands are a denial of the foreign policy of both countries. Sweden, which saw itself as a "humanitarian power", had to end the embargo on arms sales to Turkey, extradite "suspected terrorists" from pro-Turkish organizations (which is an ambiguous issue), and investigate and ban the activity of some of them. Meanwhile, Erdogan has guaranteed the purchase of a few more F-16 fighter jets to bomb the Kurds. Although NATO likes to classify itself as an alliance of democracies, Turkey (and not only this country), does not meet the necessary requirements for this classification to be indisputable. Sweden and Finland's entry into NATO was obtained with the eternal sacrifice of the Kurds.
    Yet faced with the choice between neutrality being under threat of Russian attack, or join NATO and sacrifice parts of their foreign policy platform, Sweden and Finland still chose the NATO option. Nobody in NATO compelled them to make that choice.

  7. #4607

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    God, your takes are as vapid as they are wrong and yet somehow racist. I'd report you for making wrongful assumptions that rise to the level of personal insults, but to do so would perhaps give it credibility. Your racist, bigoted, and demonstrably false views speak for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    One aspect of American isolationism I would agree with is to stop poking around in other countries' affairs to the point that the CIA is aiding coups against democratically elected governments in places like Iran or Guatemala. On top of that, regime change against dictators in Iraq and Syria has proven to be a total disaster. The only places we had a tiny bit of moral high ground after WWII was in aiding desperate allies who were attacked by an aggressive neighbor, such as our ally South Korea in the Korean War, South Vietnam in the Vietnam War (although the entire war began under false Gulf of Tonkin BS premise), and Kuwait in the Gulf War.
    K.

    Also, I find it funny that your "globalist overlords" (Jews? LOL)
    What? Why are you dragging the Jews into this? Do you hate Jews? Are you an anti-semite? Why do you hate the Jews so much? Why do you blame the Jews for everything wrong with your politics?

    are in reality the rotten insatiable military industrial complex that you love and protect so much here, the one that Eisenhower direly warned us about at the end of his presidency. Multinational corporate interests are huge driving forces for instability and conflict at times, but the biggest culprits in that realm are defense contractors, arms manufacturers, and of course the fossil fuel industry (another beloved one of the right-wing, even when they're squeezing us all at the pump charging us a gazillion dollars per gallon of gas).
    What are you talking about? Where have I ever supported any of this strawman BS?

    Your take on America leaving its role in the world, in particular Europe, is laughable, something a middle schooler who got Ds on his report card would say with complete confidence. I don't like American imperialism projected across the globe, but your post is insane and totally detached from reality in terms of preserving basic stability in global economics. Another World War in Europe would be an utter disaster of epic proportion for the entire global economy; the war in Ukraine is already seriously aggravating shipment of essentials like wheat around the world. Germany has screwed itself with reliance on Russian natural gas, but a war across Northern and Eastern Europe involving Russia would affect supply chains everywhere, including the USA. Again, there's a reason why the United States has not left NATO. The only reason Trump wanted to undermine NATO is because he has some sort of bizarre relationship with Vladimir Putin, one of the few foreign figures he refuses to criticize and seems genuinely terrified of him for whatever reason (possibly leverage of some kind, but I'll stop there since it's off-topic).
    So your insult to me aside, your point is that Trump was tough on Russia but also Trump was awful because war in Europe is awful for the USA and also because Trump wanted NATO to actually honor their funding..? The hypocrisy of your own argument here is less than self-evident...like what are you even saying.

    Also, I'm not a fan of Biden, he's rather limp and weak, not a progressive champion for the left, but I find it hilarious that you have singled him out for criticism on this. Biden is no different from every US president in the last half century in their unwavering support for NATO, including Obama, George W. Bush, Clinton, George H. W. Bush, Reagan, etc. It's not even a conservative versus liberal thing as you seem to suggest. Trump is the sole aberration in that regard, an archaic throwback to pre-World War One attitudes when the world was an enormously different place without nuclear weapons and Mutually Assured Destruction.
    Yeah well, your takes are pretty weak and kinda silly.

  8. #4608

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Turkey pushes Finland and Sweden on extradition after deal
    Ukraine war live | World | The Guardian
    Swedish and Finnish concessions to Turkish demands are a denial of the foreign policy of both countries. Sweden, which saw itself as a "humanitarian power", had to end the embargo on arms sales to Turkey, extradite "suspected terrorists" from pro-Turkish organizations (which is an ambiguous issue), and investigate and ban the activity of some of them. Meanwhile, Erdogan has guaranteed the purchase of a few more F-16 fighter jets to bomb the Kurds. Although NATO likes to classify itself as an alliance of democracies, Turkey (and not only this country), does not meet the necessary requirements for this classification to be indisputable. Sweden and Finland's entry into NATO was obtained with the eternal sacrifice of the Kurds.
    You seem to equate PKK with all Kurds. Let's not forget that because of this deal millions of Kurds will be sacrificed on the streets of Turkish streets next week... Your comments are especially problematic as you tried to justify raping of Ukraine and killing of its citizens earlier but you seem to be willing to rely on hysteria and deception when it comes to defending Kurds. Why do Kurds matter more than Ukrainians?
    The Armenian Issue

  9. #4609
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    Nobody in NATO compelled them to make that choice.
    Turkey. Turkey belongs to NATO.
    ----
    Yet faced with the choice between neutrality being under threat of Russian attack, or join NATO and sacrifice parts of their foreign policy platform, Sweden and Finland still chose the NATO option
    I'm not quite sure. Sweden is a flourishing democracy, not a banana republic.And nobody likes to be blackmailed.
    The ruling Social Democratic Workers' Party of Sweden supported the country's entry into NATO with one reservation: the alliance must not station nuclear weapons and permanent bases on the Swedish territory Sweden's ruling Social Democratic Party backs Nato

    Until then, there will be lot of water flowing under the bridge. I do not foresee that the Swedish parliament will agree to the demands imposed by Erdogan.
    Erdoğan warns Turkey could still block Finland and Sweden's

    The Finnish president, Sauli Niinistö, stressed Helsinki pointed out that … “In the case of extraditions, we will adhere to our own legislation and international agreements.
    There is a strong probability that it will not happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You seem to equate PKK with all Kurds
    I haven't mentioned the PKK. Sweden has long outlawed the PKK and says it only provides humanitarian aid to Syria and refugees in the region. Turkey, at least since 2015/16, it is at war with the Kurdish militias in Syria, the only ground forces that at that time, have managed to take on ISIS and win.Turkey considers the Syrian Kurdish People’s Protection Units (YPG) an extension of the PKK.The Kurdish YPG militia is regarded by Washington, Germany and France as an important ally against Islamic State.

    NATO: Swedish left accuses government of betraying Kurds
    Sweden "has not given in to Erdogan," Swedish Foreign Minister Ann Linde stressed from Madrid on Wednesday, June 29
    Let's wait and see.

    Edit, It's a complex issue. The Kurdish woman at the center of tension... | Rudaw.net

    Amineh Kakabaveh, a Swedish-Kurdish parliamentarian who went from being a Peshmerga fighter to a political pioneer battling for Kurdish rights from the Swedish parliament, has now become the center of diplomatic tension between global powers as Sweden seeks to join NATO despite Turkish disapproval.
    Arriving in Sweden at the end of 1992 after fleeing Iran where she was a Peshmerga fighter for the socialist movement called Komala for five years, stationed in the mountains between the Kurdistan Region and Iran. Kakabaveh is also proud to be Swedish, expressing her gratitude to the country that took her in and gave her a safe haven. She has been a member of parliament there for over 14 years, and has used her platform to fight for the rights of woman and children against honour crimes, and all forms of oppression in Sweden, and in particular of her people, the Kurds.

    The independent Kurdish-Swedish MP recently garnered international attention after she abstained from voting on a no-confidence motion on Tuesday, saving Swedish Prime Minister Magdalena Andersson’s government. In exchange, Kakabaveh said the government had promised to continue helping Kurds in northeastern Syria (Rojava).
    “We have an agreement,” she stated without divulging the details of this agreement. This was not the first time she saved Andersson’s government, rescuing her in November when the country’s first female prime minister was forced to resign.

    In exchange, Andersson promised at the time that Sweden would cooperate closer with the Syrian Democratic Council (SDC), the political wing of the US-backed and Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) which Ankara considers to be linked to the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), a group it labels as a terrorist organization.
    The US and the European Union (EU) have also designated the PKK as a terrorist organization, an act which Kakabaveh strongly condemns, saying it is “bad for the Kurdish nation, bad for the Kurdish struggle.” She also said she was concerned about individuals being labelled as terrorists purely for supporting the Kurdish cause.

    Her outspoken support of Kurds, particularly those living in the Kurdish areas of Turkey, has converted her into a target of criticism from Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Kakabaveh laughed off the threats she has received, mentioning that Erdogan had called on Sweden to extradite her to Turkey before realizing she was in fact a Kurd from Iran. “I thought it was a joke,” she said between laughter. “This shows he hates us [Kurds],” she said, returning to a more serious tone.

    “Freedom fighters or terrorists?”

    Tension arose last month when Turkey voiced its objections towards Finland and Sweden joining NATO because of their support of Kurdish forces in Rojava and the presence of alleged sympathizers and supporters of the PKK in these countries. The approval of all NATO member states is required for new countries to join.

    The PKK has been waging an armed struggle against the Turkish state, which boasts of the second-largest military forces in NATO, since the 1970s for increased Kurdish rights. In recent years, Ankara has cracked down on the group and suspected members. It also conducted military operations in the mountains of the Kurdistan Region, targeting the fighters’ hideouts.

    Kakabaveh clarified that she is not a member of the PKK, nor does she agree with all the methods and actions used by the group to achieve their goals, but emphasized that they “have helped the Kurdish struggle, they saved people in Shingal” against the Islamic State (ISIS).

    “They are collaborating with Erdogan by doing this,” she said of the classification of the PKK as a terrorist group by the international community. “They give weapons to the Ukrainians to defend themselves, but when we defend ourselves, we are terrorists? What is that?” she questioned, adding that there is a double standard approach towards Kurdish groups, including the People’s Protection Units (YPG) in Rojava.

    The YPG is the backbone of the SDF, a main ally of the international coalition, also consisting of Sweden, fighting against ISIS.

    “How is it possible that the Social Democrats help Kurds on one hand and on the other hand they label them as terrorists?”

    She said she would soon give Sweden’s "intelligence services" an ultimatum to decide whether these groups “are freedom fighters or terrorists?” once and for all.

    “Who are they [US and EU] to label the Kurds as terrorists? They use the Kurds when they want to, they use them against ISIS.” Kakabaveh said that Kurds were being used as geopolitical pawns in negotiations between global powers. She added that the US and Europe are giving in to Turkish demands to prevent Turkey from moving closer to Russia.

    Championing the Kurdish cause


    When asked about how it feels to be at the center of attention after saving the Swedish government from a no-confidence vote, and being a key point of contention between Sweden and Turkey, Kakabaveh said that while the attention is positive, it is “not really good.”

    “It says so much about Turkey and about Erdogan... why my existence as a Kurdish woman [is a threat], just because I support Kurds and have openly done so in the Swedish parliament.”

    She added that she wants to use the platform that she enjoys now to garner international attention to the Kurdish cause, and to combat the “oppression” Kurds face in “Turkey and Iran.”

    Kakabaveh also called on authorities in the Kurdistan Region to stand with Kurds in Syria, Turkey, and Iran, adding that Kurdish unity is vital to the cause.

    “Governments in the Middle East want to see Kurds against each other, they want them to be enemies,” she stated. “The Kurds have the mountains, the kalashnikovs, and their own dignity.”

    Kakabaveh stressed that she stands with oppressed people everywhere, not just the Kurds, talking of the personal experience she has had with war as a Peshmerga fighter. “I have my own experience of war, of chemical warfare.”

    “I am not just Kurdish, I am also Swedish. In Iran they wanted to kill me, in Sweden I am an MP,” she said humorously, applauding Sweden for its treatment of refugees, minorities, and women.

    Turkey has called for the extradition of Kurds it claims support the PKK but Kakabaveh assured that “there is no risk” of such a thing happening because she claims Sweden “has strong laws which protect the Swedish citizens as well as refugees.”

    Kakabaveh said she will be taking a break from being an MP and will not be running in the upcoming elections in September, adding that she will be focusing on other projects, while remaining an advocate of women and children rights and the Kurdish cause. She heads an organization in Sweden which works in the suburbs to eradicate honor crimes. Kakabaveh plans on continuing with the organization and has said she wants to work towards establishing peace, democracy, human rights, and women’s rights. “I am available if a country wants a peace mediator. I will not become unemployed,” she added. She has also proudly authored a book titled “No bigger than a Kalashnikov: A Peshmerga in parliament.”

    Turkish threats of renewed military offensive in northern Syria


    At the end of May, Erdogan announced his plan to consolidate a 30 kilometre “safe zone” in northern Syria to clear the area of “terrorists” and to create a stable environment for Syrian refugees in Turkey to return to.

    The US, Russia, and the United Nations (UN) have called on Turkey to refrain from embarking on military escalation in Syria. The Syrian government has also condemned the plan, calling it a violation of Syrian sovereignty.

    There are expectations that Erdogan may use his approval of Sweden and Finland’s NATO applications as leverage to silence international condemnation of a new military operation in northern Syria.

    When asked whether she believed that Sweden may close its eyes to renewed Turkish aggression in exchange for joining NATO, Kakabaveh said “there is a risk” of this happening but that the Swedish Social Democrats had “made a promise to help Kurds.”

    “I don’t trust the international community, I am not naive,” she lamented. She accused Erdogan of using Syrian refugees as “a business” to gain more concessions from the West, adding that he is “claiming to be setting up settlements for these refugees to return,” but she believes the plan is aimed at bringing in Syrian Arabs to replace the Kurds in Kurdish cities.
    Last edited by Ludicus; July 01, 2022 at 05:44 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  10. #4610
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Turkey. Turkey belongs to NATO.
    What I had meant to say was that nobody within NATO is making Sweden and Finland join NATO. They could’ve always found the terms too unacceptable to enter, and then left the talks without repercussions to their sovereignty.

    Now Ukraine on the other hand, as they tried to leave the Russian alliance, they got invaded, twice.

  11. #4611
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    @nhy

    Man, if only this was addressed in the quote you've provided.
    Apparently "Russia did not go for a coup", is a series of code words only you know and can explain. It was easy to misunderstand its importance and lack of clarity, given that you confidently led with that bold and incorrect statement. It was then followed by a faulty and incomplete assessment of Russias primary war goals.

    You want a source for what, exactly? Every war Russia ever fought? Do you perhaps need a source for what I've had for breakfast too?
    Find me another invasion of Russia from the west. I've given you all 3/4.
    Aren't you the proponent of comparing scale over strategy? The biggest loss of human life during a war occurred in WW2 and WW1, disproportionately to Russia. Why are we not finding and comparing the dozens of coups and invasions USA has led instead of just the Bay of Pigs and its strategy?

    From the White House, US President John F Kennedy cancelled at the last minute the US air strikes that would have neutralised Castro's aviation."The operation had to be as secret as possible and Kennedy gave the CIA three days to re-elaborate a plan that had been under preparation for a whole year" "Kennedy reduced the aircraft from 16 to 8 and urged the CIA to modify the zone and time for the landing." "With suspicions aroused over US participation, Kennedy cancelled the rest of the air strikes, landing a devastating blow against the objectives of the 2506 Brigade, which was left with insufficient air support."

    Do keep talking out of your though.
    You quoted Kennedy giving air support instead of witholding it. How is that supposed to support your argument? Furthermore Kennedy and the CIA increased the support as the invasion continued.

    Approximately 60 members of the Alabama Guard were involved, including four pilots and four enlisted crewmembers who flew four bombers (two per bomber) to support the invasion by U.S.-backed Cuban exiles. These eight Alabama guardsmen flew combat missions on the last day when the Cuban pilots were exhausted. It was a desperate measure, but the Cubans on the beaches needed help badly. The mission proved fatal to four members of the Alabama unit. U.S. president John F. Kennedy later acknowledged America's involvement but denied that American military personnel had entered Cuban territory. Not until 1987 did the U.S. reveal that eight ANG members had indeed flown into Cuban airspace.

    The next day, CIA officials in Washington told the president that U.S. planes and crews from the naval force conducting exercises nearby (on standby if ordered) must support the invasion.

    The men were warned that should they be captured, the United States would declare that the men were mercenaries and disavow any knowledge of their activities.

    ________________

    Of course, which is why they're so eager to unite with Russia. You're hilarious.
    The people within those regions likely hold a grudge against Georgia for the brutality that occurred during the civil wars, they also have a need to be part of an internationally recognized state. States that aren't recognized have numerous barriers, financial, and political. Furthermore, they likely want to secede from Georgia permentantly at this point.

    What source bruh? I'm using YOUR logic. Pre 2008 parts of Georgia were occupied by south Ossetia and Abkhazia, no Russia. Post 2008 parts of Georgia are occupied by south Ossetia and Abkhazia, no Russia. Ins't that your claim?
    So what changed by Russia invading? All territorial disputes are still with factions seceding from Georgia, not with Russia. They just control a bit more.
    I doubt it's possible to assuage this exacerbated confusion but to simplify what I've already said. Separatist = internal. Invasion = external.


    Did the EU have to look weak or invade Turkey when Cyprus joined the EU while half of it is occupied by Turkey?
    The EU is certainly weaker than NATO which Turkey and Greece are part of. Russia, unlike Turkey, is not part of either NATO or the EU, and we know the original mission of NATO was to provide collective security against the USSR, which Russia is the successor state of. To make the argument that the EU would have to go to war against NATO or look weak impresses me with its nuance and brilliance. I do hope to see more such arguments.
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  12. #4612

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    I haven't mentioned the PKK. Sweden has long outlawed the PKK and says it only provides humanitarian aid to Syria and refugees in the region. Turkey, at least since 2015/16, it is at war with the Kurdish militias in Syria, the only ground forces that at that time, have managed to take on ISIS and win. Turkey considers the Syrian Kurdish People’s Protection Units (YPG) an extension of the PKK. The Kurdish YPG militia is regarded by Washington, Germany and France as an important ally against Islamic State.
    NATO: Swedish left accuses government of betraying Kurds
    Let's wait and see.
    Edit, It's a complex issue. The Kurdish woman at the center of tension... | Rudaw.net
    Yet, you did, just not in name. Instead, you were addressing Turkey's demands from Sweden and Finland, which was about PKK, or Turkey getting F-16s, which it uses against PKK, and you talked about "eternal sacrifice of Kurds" which was rather hysterical.

    Sweden might have outlawed PKK on paper but PKK continues to roam freely in Sweden. Their latest protests showed that. On paper, Sweden might have given over 200 million Euros to PKK administration in northern Syria under the guise of humanitarian aid but this not aid given to European humanitarian organizations in the region but to a PKk run administration. PKK managed to take on ISIL effectively not because they were the most capable group in the region but because they received the most support of arms and most importantly air strikes. They basically moved in thanks to those air strikes from USA.

    It's not just that Turkey that considers YPG an extension of PKK. PKK considers that. USA intelligent reports consider that. It is no secret that YPG is the Syrian wing of PKK. Turkey also didn't started to fight PKK in Syria out of the blue, or since 2015. Northern Syria have been a very important region for the fight against PKK for decades as they used the region as a safe haven for their training, planning and attacks. The PKK leader Öcalan called it home between 1979 and 1998 at which point he had to flee Syria as Turkey threatened Syria against harboring him any longer. At that point he fled and got caught a year later leaving a Greek embassy with a Southern Cypriot passport. After the Iraqi invasion, however, PKK slowly creeped in back again and used the region as a base to launch attacks from.
    The Armenian Issue

  13. #4613
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    @nhy



    Apparently "Russia did not go for a coup", is a series of code words only you know and can explain. It was easy to misunderstand its importance and lack of clarity, given that you confidently led with that bold and incorrect statement. It was then followed by a faulty and incomplete assessment of Russias primary war goals.
    Much like I wouldn't describe the German invasion of Norway by saying "Germany went for a coup", I also oppose describing the Russian invasion of Ukraine as such. I'll repeat my example " I went to the supermarket and bought every single item there. You describe my actions as "Oh, you went to buy milk." I'm saying "No, I didn't go to buy milk, I went to buy every item. Milk was just part of that."
    Buying milk does not neccesitate buying every item in the store. Buying every item in the store can, but not neccesarily, include buying milk.
    Commiting a coup does not neccesitate a military invasion. A military invasion can, but not neccesarily, include comitting a coup.



    Aren't you the proponent of comparing scale over strategy? The biggest loss of human life during a war occurred in WW2 and WW1,
    In total numbers, but not in proportion to world population.
    disproportionately to Russia.
    Not as a proportion of population. The war was far more devestating to Poland (which was genocided and ethnically cleansed by both germans and soviets), and when you break down the Soviet Union Russia suffered fewer relative casualties than Ukraine, Belarus, Armenia and Lithuania.
    In terms of sheer numbers China suffered more than Russia (but less than the Soviet Union).
    Why are we not finding and comparing the dozens of coups and invasions USA has led instead of just the Bay of Pigs and its strategy?
    You brought up the bay of pigs. And I like how you're no longer defending the point you were trying to make about constant invasions of Russia from the west, instead attempting to shift it to a question of scale because you realise you were wrong and are trying to salvage some form of argument.


    You quoted Kennedy giving air support instead of witholding it. How is that supposed to support your argument? Furthermore Kennedy and the CIA increased the support as the invasion continued.
    The literal first quote, as well as the last one, is about Kennedy cancelling air support. The rest are about the downscaling of the operation.


    The people within those regions likely hold a grudge against Georgia for the brutality that occurred during the civil wars, they also have a need to be part of an internationally recognized state. States that aren't recognized have numerous barriers, financial, and political. Furthermore, they likely want to secede from Georgia permentantly at this point.
    Yes, they hold a grudge against Georgia for brutality, so they wish to join the successor state of the Soviet Union. Lmao.


    I doubt it's possible to assuage this exacerbated confusion but to simplify what I've already said. Separatist = internal. Invasion = external.
    But no external claims exists on Georgia, only internal. Russia isn't (directly) occupying any Georgian territory.



    The EU is certainly weaker than NATO which Turkey and Greece are part of. Russia, unlike Turkey, is not part of either NATO or the EU, and we know the original mission of NATO was to provide collective security against the USSR, which Russia is the successor state of. To make the argument that the EU would have to go to war against NATO or look weak impresses me with its nuance and brilliance. I do hope to see more such arguments.
    Well sure, if you completely disregard my question and morph it into something else you can then freely draw the wrong conclusions.

  14. #4614
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Yet, you did, just not in name. Instead, you were addressing Turkey's demands from Sweden and Finland, which was about PKK, or Turkey getting F-16s, which it uses against PKK, and you talked about "eternal sacrifice of Kurds" which was rather hysterical
    Pure hypocrisy. If you have forgotten, permit me to refresh your memory. They were useful allies in combating the Islamic State, but when it is convenient they are considered terrorists. In case you don't remember,
    The US joins the Turkey-PKK fight in northern Syria
    In fighting the Islamic State (IS), Washington has been supporting the YPG indirectly for several years and meeting with its commanders
    .
    US to stop arming anti-IS Syrian Kurdish YPG militia - Turkey

    Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said President Donald Trump had made the promise in a phone call to his Turkish counterpart, Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
    The White House said it was making "adjustments" to its support for partners inside Syria but did not explicitly name the YPG.
    Turkey has long complained about US support for the group. Washington has viewed the YPG as a key player in the fight against so-called Islamic State (IS), but Ankara brands the group's fighters as terrorists.
    Le Monde rightly put it,NATO challenged by Turkish blackmail - Le Monde

    NATO is experiencing this with the blockade by Turkey of the Swedish and Finnish candidacies for membership, for reasons that do not sit well with the newly created situation of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

    The values he professes ...his style of governance increasingly resembles that of Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping, with a muzzled civil society, rump parliaments, and a justice system that bends to orders.This was demonstrated in April with the sentencing of Turkish philanthropist Osman Kavala to life imprisonment after a travesty of a trial, the same sentence faced by Salah Abdeslam in France for his participation in the November 13, 2015 attacks. In Mr. Erdogan's Turkey, journalists, members of parliament, mayors, academics who are accused of "terrorism," are often summoned to court, and sometimes heavily sentenced for criticizing the actions of "Reis" ("leader," one of the president's nicknames).

    Is he really in a position to lecture Sweden and Finland on the fight against terrorism, when the accusation of inactivity is one of the specious arguments he uses to justify the blockade?The heady wine of impunity could, however, prove to be a trap. Is it really in Mr. Erdogan's interest to scorn his Western allies at a time when his electoral situation is deteriorating, less than a year before the presidential and parliamentary elections scheduled for June 2023?


    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Sweden might have outlawed PKK on paper
    The Swedish Ministry for Foreign Affairs disagrees, Statement from the Ministry for Foreign Affairs in Stockholm
    Messages and images that we have reason to believe are manipulated have been circulating on social media, asserting that Sweden supports PKK. Relevant measures have been taken.
    This is a deliberate and malicious influence campaign with the clear aim of obstructing Sweden’s accession to NATO.
    Sweden has clearly denounced the PKK, which is a terrorist organisation, and Sweden condemns terrorism in all its forms.
    Minister for Foreign Affairs Ann Linde has never expressed any support for the PKK, and strongly rejects the manipulated video and the PKK.


    Sweden's Kurds fear they may pay price for NATO bid as ...
    Aside from its anger with the two Nordic countries, Turkey has long been infuriated by other support for the YPG, notably from the United States, France and Germany.
    Facing a prison sentence, Osman Aytar, an ethnic Kurd, fled Turkey for Sweden in the 1990s.
    "Kurds have been betrayed many times in history," said Aytar, a 62-year-old associate professor in social work at the Malardalen University in eastern Sweden.
    "Maybe Erdogan is betting that he can invade new parts of Rojava (the mainly Kurdish regions of northern Syria) and the West will be quiet just because of this NATO membership issue. If the West just shuts its eyes, he will be happy."
    More? do you want more?
    year 2108,Turkey Launches Operation Against U.S.-Backed Kurdish

    Turkey's Defense Minister Nurettin Canikli says Turkey has begun a military operation against U.S.-backed Kurdish fighters in Syria's Afrin region.
    A spokesman for U.S.-backed Kurdish People's Protection Units (YPG) confirmed that Turkish forces began heavily shelling Syria's Afrin region from Turkish territory on January 19 shortly after midnight.
    On January 15, Erdogan threatened to crush a "army of terror" he claims the United States is trying to set up on Turkey’s border with Syria.
    Turkey's government was infuriated by a January 14 statement from the U.S.-led coalition in Syria that said Washington would help set up a new 30,000-strong border force in Syria that includes the YPG
    U.S.-led coalition helps to build new Syrian force, angering Turkey...


    And I could go on.
    Last edited by Ludicus; July 01, 2022 at 04:41 PM.
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  15. #4615
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    @nhy

    Much like I wouldn't describe the German invasion of Norway by saying "Germany went for a coup", I also oppose describing the Russian invasion of Ukraine as such. I'll repeat my example " I went to the supermarket and bought every single item there. You describe my actions as "Oh, you went to buy milk." I'm saying "No, I didn't go to buy milk, I went to buy every item. Milk was just part of that."
    Buying milk does not neccesitate buying every item in the store. Buying every item in the store can, but not neccesarily, include buying milk.
    Commiting a coup does not neccesitate a military invasion. A military invasion can, but not neccesarily, include comitting a coup.
    If what you said really is a mistake in phrasing, instead of simply being wrong, maybe you shouldn't have led with that point of contention. An opening sentence and the paragraph it belongs to is generally considered to be your main point. Stating your point in such a way, expounding on what you initially perceived to be Russia's primary goals, while refraining from including a coup among them obviously creates confusion.

    In total numbers, but not in proportion to world population. Not as a proportion of population. The war was far more devestating to Poland (which was genocided and ethnically cleansed by both germans and soviets), and when you break down the Soviet Union Russia suffered fewer relative casualties than Ukraine, Belarus, Armenia and Lithuania.
    In terms of sheer numbers China suffered more than Russia (but less than the Soviet Union).
    So in your view we're not allowed to call it disproportionate because of a few edge cases in tiny countries invaded by armies millions strong; and we must also insist that only one thing can be disproportionate.

    You brought up the bay of pigs. And I like how you're no longer defending the point you were trying to make about constant invasions of Russia from the west, instead attempting to shift it to a question of scale because you realise you were wrong and are trying to salvage some form of argument.
    I will admit I find it entertaining to see you justify your emphasis on scale and the word constant. However, you didn't really get very far with justifying the scale or addressing the primary point I was making; my point is there's a definite history of invasions from the west of Russia at scale. Nowhere did I emphasize constant, in fact the only thing I emphasized was the history of invasions and reasons any Russian government would seek buffer states.

    The literal first quote, as well as the last one, is about Kennedy cancelling air support. The rest are about the downscaling of the operation.
    We already know Kennedy was lying as evidence from the US government in 1987 states the opposite, and that US air support did in fact reinforce the invasion.

    Yes, they hold a grudge against Georgia for brutality, so they wish to join the successor state of the Soviet Union. Lmao.
    It definitely seems they consider it to be their only option at present.

    But no external claims exists on Georgia, only internal. Russia isn't (directly) occupying any Georgian territory.
    Russia invaded and occupied de jure Georgian territory, as an external actor. Arguing that internal actors with Georgian citizenship living on their own land is equivalent to a military occupation isn't really an argument I'd ever agree with.

    Well sure, if you completely disregard my question and morph it into something else you can then freely draw the wrong conclusions.
    Then we're supposed to believe that (North American and Turkish?) NATO would go to war with (EU?) NATO; or simply that NATO would go to war with the EU members who are not in NATO? Your question is preposterous at best, and completely disjointed from reality at worst. It really makes no sense, I'm not sure why you asked it.
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  16. #4616
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    And I could go on.
    And even more. Just a couple of months ago, April 2022

    US-backed Kurds tighten siege of Syrian army-run enclaves in ...

    AMMAN (Reuters) - U.S. backed Kurdish-led forces tightened the siege on neighborhoods under the control of the Syrian government in two Kurdish-controlled cities in northeast Syria, officials from both sides said on Thursday.
    The Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) said they took over about 10 government offices ranging from the local finance, grains and education branches in a zone in the heart of the city of Qamishli.
    The grouping of U.S.-backed militias, which is dominated by the Kurdish YPG, also prevented for a sixth consecutive day the entry of wheat and fuel to the other zone in the city of Hasaka under control of Syrian government forces.
    Most of the neighborhoods of the two biggest cities in northeastern Syria have been under SDF control since Syrian troops handed control to the Kurds in the early years of the 11-year war to fight mainly Sunni rebels seeking to overthrow President Bashar al Assad.
    Finally, - June 7, 2022. Quite interesting...

    US-Backed Kurdish-Led Forces Say Ready to Coordinate With Syrian Army Against Turkey...

    The U.S.-backed Syrian Democratic Forces said Tuesday they would coordinate with Syrian government troops to fend off any Turkish invasion of the north and protect Syrian territory (...)

    (…) Any Turkish operation would attack the Kurdish YPG militia, a key part of the U.S.-backed Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) that controls large parts of north Syria and is regarded by Washington as an important ally against Islamic State. Ankara sees it as a terrorist group and extension of the militant Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK).
    --

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    The biggest loss of human life during a war occurred in WW2 and WW1, disproportionately to Russia.
    Often forgotten.
    Don't forget how the Soviet Union saved the world from Hitler - Washington Post
    The Red Army was "the main engine of Nazism’s destruction," writes British historian and journalist Max Hastings in "Inferno: The World at War, 1939-1945." The Soviet Union paid the harshest price: though the numbers are not exact, an estimated 26 million Soviet citizens died during World War II, including as many as 11 million soldiers. At the same time, the Germans suffered three-quarters of their wartime losses fighting the Red Army.
    "It was the Western Allies’ extreme good fortune that the Russians, and not themselves, paid almost the entire ‘butcher’s bill’ for [defeating Nazi Germany], accepting 95 per cent of the military casualties of the three major powers of the Grand Alliance," writes Hastings
    Last edited by Ludicus; July 01, 2022 at 05:17 PM.
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  17. #4617
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Wow except that Molotov Ribbentrop pact thing you recall Poland was a western ally sure it was totally happy about Russian pre and post war help. Also you know the CBO you like to decry that perverted German arms production and allocation and ground down its (German) air force. And cool thing the US not coming to some deal with japan and letting it be an effective ally to Germany. Also gotta say theat Russian attack on Finland sure worked out good. A country that otherwise would have been neutral made into a German buddy.

    Also note taking even the highest estimate of loss for Russia Poland lost more of its population by percentage than Russia. So what a surprise they ignored your favorite IR theorist and put themselves in NATO ASAP. Nothing like security from vs both of your best neighbors.
    Last edited by conon394; July 01, 2022 at 07:35 PM.
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  18. #4618

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Also, don't forget that it was Lend Lease and massive amount of material aid that allowed Soviet Union to survive and build up its industrial strength. They were closer to defeat than most people know...if Germans had more time to prepare Operation Eisenhammer, they could have permanently knocked out over 75% of Soviet power supply, and with it, the industrial capacity.

  19. #4619
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    How is the USSRs hand in defeating Hitler relevant? Does Putin get Zelenskyys children because Hitler shot first?

    Putin is neither Stalin or Hitler, maybe as mentioned above, he's Mussolini, butvthis is notvtbe 1930s, it doesnt even rhyme.

    No excuses forRussia's terrorist acts. He needs to GTFO.
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  20. #4620

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    How is the USSRs hand in defeating Hitler relevant? Does Putin get Zelenskyys children because Hitler shot first?

    Putin is neither Stalin or Hitler, maybe as mentioned above, he's Mussolini, butvthis is notvtbe 1930s, it doesnt even rhyme.

    No excuses forRussia's terrorist acts. He needs to GTFO.
    Plus back then (just like today), Russia's leadership was solely interested in seizing land and slaves and it's stormtroopers were only interested in raping and slaughtering anyone who couldn't fight back. That they are seen as anything less than the horde of savage beasts they were is only because they were fighting the Nazis, who could make anyone look better by comparison.

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