Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

[Papay]

When you see someone getting raped do you tell them to just stop struggling and enjoy it?

So if the "rapist" threatens to kill the victim what do you do? Bty the "rape" began with the coup in 2014 that started a pro-Russian rebellion and lead to the Russian intervention

[Heathen Hammer]

So if the "rapist" threatens to kill the victim what do you do? Bty the "rape" began with the coup in 2014 that started a pro-Russian rebellion and lead to the Russian intervention

And the replies will be the usual demagogic stuff about how its okay to coup foreign governments because fairly elected president didn't make a pro-Western decision, and that population of South East doesn't deserve human rights because they are pro-Russian.

[Vanoi]

So if the "rapist" threatens to kill the victim what do you do? Bty the "rape" began with the coup in 2014 that started a pro-Russian rebellion and lead to the Russian intervention

A coup? Last time I checked in 2014 the pro-Russian president simply fled the country while Ukraine's parliament unanimously voted him out of power. That's not a coup.

[Coughdrop addict]

I wonder what Papay would say if the US said Russia had to completely remove itself from Ukraine, turn over Putin for execution and completely demilitarize, or we'd invade?

Would he say Mother Russia had better lay back and enjoy it as the stronger nation has it's way with her?

[PointOfViewGun]

So if the "rapist" threatens to kill the victim what do you do? Bty the "rape" began with the coup in 2014 that started a pro-Russian rebellion and lead to the Russian intervention

You certainly don't tell the victim to just stop struggling and let him have his way with her.

What happened in 2014 was not a coup. The president was voted out by the parliament. The rape actually started long before when Russia tried to install a puppet government in Ukraine.

[Ludicus]

Is it a compliment?

It's an observation.I don't understand how hard it is to see that it is exactly the same rhetoric used by Moscow.Biden's nuke review abandons campaign rhetoric on disarmament
As the author of the article has put it,

the challenge seems to be, not to do everything in our power to make sure that a nuclear weapon is never again used, but instead to develop “resilience” in the face of their eventual “limited” use.

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Because it matters, let's talk about the presidential elections in Brazil and the war in Ukraine.

Bolsonaro does not accept the result of the second round of the Brazilian presidential elections that gave victory to Lula da Silva. Neither he nor a large part of his electorate. (Where have we heard this before?).
Bolsonaro's silence after the results were known is an obvious sign that he has asked his collaborators to define a strategy to contest the vote count. The next few hours will be decisive in understanding Brazil's immediate future. However, there is an external circumstance that plays against Bolsonaro and that he cannot control. From the US to France to UK to Russia to China, the overwhelming majority of heads of state and government congratulated Lula da Silva on his victory. That is, Biden, Macron, Sunak, Putin, Xi, and many others (even if ideologically distant) internationally validated the results taking away Bolsonaro's room to maneuver.

Biden called Lula to congratulate him on his election victory on Sunday. Hours after the election, Biden declared "He wants to focus on the environment, democracy, and dealing with the poor in his country, and saving the Amazon".
Biden, on the call, Biden calls Brazilian President-elect Lula

Commended the strength of Brazilian democratic institutions following free, fair, and credible elections

It must said said that Lula's victory reinforces the trend of more leftist governments in Latin America. There are only three governments in South America that are not leftist at this time: Ecuador, Uruguay and Paraguay.
In South America, as in the rest of the world, there are left and right-wing regimes that support Zelensky- and others don’t. (for example, Boric in Chile supports Zelensky).

India is "neutral" on this issue, but India is too important to be directly threatened with sanctions by the U.S. government, The EU and India agree to disagree on Ukraine… and that's ok
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So, this is probably what will happen in U.S. relations with Brazil. US Sanctions on Russia a Mistake, Brazil Lula's Top Foreign

US-led sanctions on Russia are a political mistake that increases the risk of a nuclear war, according to a top foreign policy adviser to Brazil’s presidential front-runner Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva. “It’s irresponsible not to seek peace.” Brazil would have close ties with US, China, Russia under Lula.In May, Lula caused controversy when telling Time magazine that Ukraine’s Volodymyr Zelenskiy and US’s Joe Biden share part of the blame for the war as he believes both leaders failed to negotiate more with Moscow. Sanctions are also strengthening ties between Moscow and Beijing, Amorim added.
“I have nothing against China -- we’re all part of the BRICS -- but I can’t understand the interest of the US in strengthening the China-Russia relationship,” Amorim said, referring to the group of major emerging market economies that include Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa.

And what does the EU say?
Brazil: Statement by High Representative Josep Borrell on the on the presidential elections

I look forward to working together with President Lula and his government, as well as with the new Congress and State authorities.

Borrel, beware, the Amazon jungle can invade the European garden, please explain to Lula that Brazil cannot be neutral in the conflict between the Western civilization and the Russian Huns.
For this reason, Borrel has already criticized the EU Ambassadors at the "EU Ambassadors Annual Conference 2022",

I need you to report fast, in real time on what is happening in your countries. I should be the best-informed guy in the world. Having all of you around the world, I should be the best-informed person in the world – at least as much as any Foreign Affairs Minister. I am “Foreign Affairs Minister of Europe”.

Elected by whom? The EU is still a long way from being a fully-fledged political union.

Meanwhile, the AFP reports, “Saudi Aramco on Tuesday posted a 39% jump in third-quarter profits year on year, the latest financial results boosted by higher oil prices resulting largely from Russia’s invasion of Ukraine”
In this war, where everyone loses, there are only two clear winners: the arms industry and the oil industry.

[Heathen Hammer]

A coup? Last time I checked in 2014 the pro-Russian president simply fled the country while Ukraine's parliament unanimously voted him out of power. That's not a coup.

Strange how Obama literally admitted that it was "brokered". So can't really blame Russia, given how it was America that pretty much started the conflict and caused the civil war. Russian intervention in February was merely inevitable consequence to actions US and EU committed.

[conon394]

"US-led sanctions on Russia are a political mistake that increases the risk of a nuclear war, according to a top foreign policy adviser to Brazil’s presidential front-runner Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva. “It’s irresponsible not to seek peace.” Brazil would have close ties with US, China, Russia under Lula.In May, Lula caused controversy when telling Time magazine that Ukraine’s Volodymyr Zelenskiy and US’s Joe Biden share part of the blame for the war as he believes both leaders failed to negotiate more with Moscow. Sanctions are also strengthening ties between Moscow and Beijing, Amorim added.
“I have nothing against China -- we’re all part of the BRICS -- but I can’t understand the interest of the US in strengthening the China-Russia relationship,” Amorim said, referring to the group of major emerging market economies that include Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa."

Pretty poorly thought out statement. First Russia and China have strengthening their relationship for years...

"It’s irresponsible not to seek peace"

So far I have yet see Putin offer anything that would make negotiations serve any purpose.

Borrel, beware, the Amazon jungle can invade the European garden, please explain to Lula that Brazil cannot be neutral in the conflict between the Western civilization and the Russian Huns.

Not sure how derived that from the statement you quoted.

the arms industry and the oil industry

Err and the Ukrainians who do not want to locked into being a perpetual Russian puppet or annexed by Putin.

[fkizz]

Jesuits, that supported totalitarian dictators and still think Inquisition was okay, as demonstration as to why that Russian politician wasn't that far off when he ranted about Western politicians having insane beliefs.

that Ivan The Terrible was only terrible by Russian standards, while monarchs behaving in the way Ivan did was routine in Western Europe.

You're confusing Dominicans with Jesuits. Jesuits were already suspected of corruption of belief, by the Inquisition, given their tolerance in interacting with people of other faiths. Due to that among others, were the only Catholics for centuries forbbiden to run for Papacy. Being openly anti-Inquisition would imply martyrdom. Other clergy critical of Inquisition existed too, but you don't hear much about them for a reason.
At the end of the day, Inquisition was useful for European Kings to have more Political control. It was more of a political issue, no one in absolute power wants to remove power, typically.

Ivan disarmin the Boyars influence in the Tsar politics in a more belligerent way was not too common on Europe unless you focus on a specific period. In most medieval periods the alliegeance system varied, and nobles were pacified by more scheming means, not as direct as Ivan. Exceptions exist, like the War of the Roses.

That said, the way Boyars used their influence to shape Ivan's growth in important phases was condemnable and unfortunate, and they ended up having a sucessful counter-rebellion with power centered on himself. If he was someone that using belligerent methods gave more freedom to the populace from the Boyars or if he was just a despot, that I cannot say.

I disagree. Even going back to very bellicose early cold war years, standards for politicians were infinitely higher. Or they hid their bad laundry better, but the result, nonetheless remains the same.

Better laundry. Much of the dirty laundry on cold war politicians "today" is nothing new under the sun.

Accept Russian demands

He will just continue grabbing additional land to make up for the big manpower losses incurred until now. You're being tricked hard by the Kremlin.

[Heathen Hammer]

You're confusing Dominicans with Jesuits. Jesuits were already suspected of corruption of belief, by the Inquisition, given their tolerance in interacting with people of other faiths. Due to that among others, were the only Catholics for centuries forbbiden to run for Papacy. Being openly anti-Inquisition would imply martyrdom. Other clergy critical of Inquisition existed too, but you don't hear much about them for a reason.
At the end of the day, Inquisition was useful for European Kings to have more Political control. It was more of a political issue, no one in absolute power wants to remove power, typically.

European Kings were historically at odds with the Church, in fact, Inquisition was used by Church to cement its power over European kingdoms.
That being said, nobody would be martyred for speaking out against Inquisition today

Ivan disarmin the Boyars influence in the Tsar politics in a more belligerent way was not too common on Europe unless you focus on a specific period. In most medieval periods the alliegeance system varied, and nobles were pacified by more scheming means, not as direct as Ivan. Exceptions exist, like the War of the Roses.

That said, the way Boyars used their influence to shape Ivan's growth in important phases was condemnable and unfortunate, and they ended up having a sucessful counter-rebellion with power centered on himself. If he was someone that using belligerent methods gave more freedom to the populace from the Boyars or if he was just a despot, that I cannot say.

Err, the whole "power to the people" demagogic concept wasn't even in existence until centuries later. My point is that Ivan was rather mundane by standards of Western Europe at that time.
Hell, French Revolution occurred centuries later, and its vicious inhumanity eclipsed many medieval atrocities.

Better laundry. Much of the dirty laundry on cold war politicians "today" is nothing new under the sun.

JFK having an affair with some Hollywood actress doesn't compare to Bill Clinton's record of putting sensual into inconsensual, all while Nixon's surveillance of Democrats doesn't really match the privacy violations of post-911 USA.

[Ludicus]

The Jesuits were not directly involved with the Inquisition, but the reason for the expulsion was the fact that they had acquired too much wealth and influence over the State affairs. In the end, here, the Portuguese Jesuits worked hard to save the empire.Remember Padre Antonio Vieira, when the Empire started to crumble, "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever" In fact he was citing the bible, Daniel 2:44.; Vieira developed a theory in which the Portuguese would fulfill the prophet Daniel’s promise.He is still still considered as the grand master of Portuguese Prose.Pessoa was his "apprentice" and follower as visionary and theoreticist of the Portuguese Fifth Empire.
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"US-led sanctions on Russia are a political mistake that increases the risk of a nuclear war, according to a top foreign policy adviser to Brazil’s presidential front-runner Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva. “It’s irresponsible not to seek peace.” Brazil would have close ties with US, China, Russia under Lula.In May, Lula caused controversy when telling Time magazine that Ukraine’s Volodymyr Zelenskiy and US’s Joe Biden share part of the blame for the war as he believes both leaders failed to negotiate more with Moscow. Sanctions are also strengthening ties between Moscow and Beijing, Amorim added.
“I have nothing against China -- we’re all part of the BRICS -- but I can’t understand the interest of the US in strengthening the China-Russia relationship,” Amorim said, referring to the group of major emerging market economies that include Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa."

Pretty poorly thought out statement..

According to Lula, Brazil would have close ties with US, Russia and China. That's it.

Not sure how derived that from the statement you quoted.

As I said, Borrel has already criticized the so-called "EU Ambassadors" at the "EU Ambassadors Annual Conference 2022". Borrel has already stated that "Europe is a garden and the rest of the world is a jungle" and no one can be neutral- calling the young European diplomats (the modern Jesuits), "gardeners" who "have to go to the jungle".

That's why I made the joke: "please explain to Lula that Brazil cannot be neutral in the conflict between the Western civilization and the Russian Huns" .
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Founded in 2010 by Paddy Cosgrave, Daire Hickey and David Kelly, the Web Summit has been held in Lisbon since 2016. The 2022 edition has started today. Web Summit | Lisbon | Where the tech world meets (Organizers saying a key aim is to ask tough questions about cryptocurrencies)
Paddy Cosgrove was already accused of pandering to Putin -The Telegraph "invited a controversial far-left news website to his tech conference"

The Telegraph forgot to mention that Paddy also invited Olena Zelenska to open the Web summit and Ukraine’s Vice Prime Minister has also flown in to speak. “Building a better Ukraine” is an event schedule to November 3. In this session, Ukrainian Prime Minister Mikhaylo Fedorov will join to lay out his plans for how the tech sector can support the Ukrainian people.

Strongly pressured, in a statement released on Twitter, Web Summit said it took the decision to revoke The Grayzone’s invitation to the 2022 conference after listening “to the views of our attendees”.
Grayzone's director, Max Blumenthal, and Aaron Maté (Canada) were removed from the guest list. Europe's largest tech conference withdraws invitation

Outraged Ukrainians sent an official letter to the Web Summit, signed by Ukraine’s Embassy in Portugal, the Ministry of Digital Transformation, and the Ukrainian delegation to the conference.

In 2018, the organization invited Le Pen to speak, but Cosgrave was also pressured to withdraw the invitation.
In 2019, Edward Snowden spoke somewhere from Russia, with warnings about technological violence on people.

Aaaron Matté on Twitter,

@MaxBlumenthal & I were invited to @WebSummit a tech-media conference in Portugal. They've now cancelled us and make clear below that they bowed to pressure from those who oppose our journalism on the Ukraine proxy war. Our detractors can't refute us, so they silence us.

Cosgrove says: “Web Summit has had speakers that our partners didn't want to hear from. We have always tried to have consistent debates and dialogues about controversial issues”.

So, Ukraine is a hot topic. In the four-day program (November 1-4) there are 3 lectures on the main stage about Ukraine, and some more on the secondary stages. 70,000 participants are expected in the Web Summit-which will also host Noam Chomsky. His presence on the main stage was subject to protests and a lot of pressure, due to the positions he adopted on the Ukrainian war, but the organization was able to resist the fury of censorship.
He' s invited to talk about artificial intelligence. Noam is a respected linguist, and that is directly related to most AI projects (1). But it will be surprising if he doesn't talk about the war.

(1) Just out of curiosity, in 2016, at Web Summit 2017 opening night, Stephan Hawking addressed the dangers and benefits of the symbiosis between people and machines,


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On a related note, regardless of where you/we stand on this conflict, I advise everyone to see Netflix's new anti-war film based on the novel by Erich Marie Remarque, "All Quite on the Western Front" Never glorifying anything about war, it is a masterpiece. Watching the movie, we are simply rooting for someone to bring the war to a halt before more people die. I watched the movie last night.
Interview: Daniel Brühl speaks about new Netflix war movie

If you look at Remarque's story of young high-school students who are enthusiastically drawn to the front in France and are immediately confronted with the horrific reality of war there then, yes, it’s a story rooted in the First World War, but it could easily be today.” For that reason, Brühl says, he hopes this version will be shown in classroom lessons”.

[Stario]

My 2 cents - Zelenskyy and the west are just as much responsible as Putin with regards to this catastrophe unfolding in Ukraine. Ukraine has been shelling the Donbas since 2014 comiting a genocide in the process w the support of the west.
Ukraine has no chance of winning this war. Russia has stabilised the front in the last few days and has mobilised. Ukraine will eventually have to concede both Crimea and the Russian annexed territories (either by way of peace talks or all out war by the Russian war machine- nuclear war if necessary). And as an added bonus the unelected evil WEF will fall when Ukraine falls.
Meanwhile it appears Xi Jinping has finally squashed the faction infighting within the CCP. I predict boots on ground in Taiwan by end of year...

[Coughdrop addict]

My 2 cents - Zelenskyy and the west are just as much responsible as Putin with regards to this catastrophe unfolding in Ukraine.

"It's her fault her father raped her, the little whore! She shouldn't have worn that in front of him!"

Or if you prefer "We had to honor kill her! She was seen talking to a boy!"

Ukraine has been shelling the Donbas since 2014 comiting a genocide in the process w the support of the west.

Ridiculous lie is ridiculous.

Ukraine has no chance of winning this war.

Ukraine is pushing Russia's demoralized, poorly equipped, badly led force of conscripts back. They are winning, you simply don't like it.

Russia has stabilised the front in the last few days and has mobilised.

Russia cannot even equip it's conscripts with winter gear. Expect at least 100,000 more dead or captured/surrendered by spring.

Ukraine will eventually have to concede both Crimea and the Russian annexed territories (either by way of peace talks or all out war by the Russian war machine- nuclear war if necessary).

We've been hearing that for eight months now, and we'll still be hearing it after the last starving, frost-bitten Russian limps back over the border.

And as an added bonus the unelected evil WEF will fall when Ukraine falls.

I can guarantee you that whatever you think you know about the World Economic Forum is complete and utter nonsense cooked up by people looking to exploit you to your ultimate detriment.

Meanwhile it appears Xi Jinping has finally squashed the faction infighting within the CCP. I predict boots on ground in Taiwan by end of year...

I predict you have a very poor understanding of current events. Hint: China's economy is crashing to the ground and Xi is more concerned with saving his own neck at the moment.

[conon394]

Well oops CA did a nice point by point ^

So I'll just add

"I predict boots on ground in Taiwan by end of year..."

Err you realize given its importance to the US that US (and certainly Japan) would not allow that to happen.

[Alastor]

302 pages in and we are still stuck at those inane rape analogies. Very productive discussion this one.

[conon394]

Err how about if you if you forced to go a Nickelback concert and gunpoint and somebody said you should relax and enjoy it?

[Note I'm not either a fan or a hater of the band but the hate is pretty curious to look at from the outside]

[Papay]

You certainly don't tell the victim to just stop struggling and let him have his way with her.

What happened in 2014 was not a coup. The president was voted out by the parliament. The rape actually started long before when Russia tried to install a puppet government in Ukraine.

The elections of 2010 were free and fair and everybody, including the opposition recognized them. And this is the problem. For some in the west its democracy a la carte. Hurray for elections, unless of course the winner is someone who we dislike. In that case lets organize a coup

[Lord Thesaurian]

302 pages in and we are still stuck at those inane rape analogies. Very productive discussion this one.

The rape is quite literal by this point.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-new...ry-strategy-un

[PointOfViewGun]

The elections of 2010 were free and fair and everybody, including the opposition recognized them. And this is the problem. For some in the west its democracy a la carte. Hurray for elections, unless of course the winner is someone who we dislike. In that case lets organize a coup

2010 elections being free and fair doesn't change the fact that what happened in 2014 was not a coup but of the president disregarding parliamentary votes and eventually getting voted out by the parliament. Why would you continue to build up on a premise that's shown to be a lie multiple times? Is your avatar indicative of your arguments' intelligent value?

[Heathen Hammer]

The rape is quite literal by this point.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-new...ry-strategy-un

Its just an insane claim from a UN envoy, who happens to be a British lawyer and an activist, and given lack of actual sources we can assume she is basically just taking Zelensky's regime word regarding that subject.

2010 elections being free and fair doesn't change the fact that what happened in 2014 was not a coup

Overthrowing an elected government is a coup, so why are you continue to build up on a premise that's been proven to be fake already?