View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    71 66.36%
  • I support Russia fully.

    12 11.21%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 3.74%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    6 5.61%
  • Not sure.

    7 6.54%
  • I don't care.

    7 6.54%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #4921

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Funny how Amnesty’s prior reports on Russian war crimes, including “unlawful air strikes on Borodyanka, and extrajudicial executions in other towns and villages including Bucha, Andriivka, Zdvyzhivka and Vorzel” were “western propaganda,” but the one mildly critical of Ukraine is holy writ.
    “Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be.” - Pope Leo XIII

  2. #4922
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    There have been multiple previous Amnesty International reports on Ukrainian war crimes, which have been posted in this thread however this is the only report that has people up in arms even though it's mildly critical in comparison.
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  3. #4923
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    That's an article from Ukrainska Pravda, the beacon of credibility and propaganda (??), which is disputing findings from Amnesty International. I dont believe Ukrainska Pravda, at least find a Western source, if not a more neutral one. The last one I read on the subject was from the well known Western CBC outlet, Human rights groups criticized some Ukrainian war actions. Experts say they should be taken seriously.
    If they are good enough for Yahoo to use them as a source then they are good enough for me too.
    I believe they ed this up, but regardless the main problem with the report is that its "perversive" and absurd to blame the Ukrainian army to station soldiers in cities, where the hell would they station them? That is where the civilians are, soldiers should be there to to prevent the Russian army to Bucha-butcher them.

    Its a nonsense complaint, next time they will blame SWAT teams for endangering the life of the hostages?
    "Oh, no, that sniper shot that terrorist right next to that hostage! THEY ARE ENDANGERING THE HOSTAGES! STOP!"

  4. #4924
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Clearly the Ukranians should keep all cities open for the taking so that the Russians can just roll in and commit atrocities.

  5. #4925
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    If they are good enough for Yahoo to use them as a source then they are good enough for me too.
    I believe they ed this up, but regardless the main problem with the report is that its "perversive" and absurd to blame the Ukrainian army to station soldiers in cities, where the hell would they station them? That is where the civilians are, soldiers should be there to to prevent the Russian army to Bucha-butcher them.

    Its a nonsense complaint, next time they will blame SWAT teams for endangering the life of the hostages?
    "Oh, no, that sniper shot that terrorist right next to that hostage! THEY ARE ENDANGERING THE HOSTAGES! STOP!"
    Yahoo is a news aggregator, it's like saying "that source is good enough to get posted on my favorite app, so it's good enough for me". But if you want to believe Ukrainska Pravda go ahead I guess.

    Amnesty International is solely interested in protecting civillians and they have made reports on Ukrainian and Russian war crimes from 2014 until present day. I think they have captured the truth as best as possible in an active warzone, over the years.
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  6. #4926
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    Yahoo is a news aggregator, it's like saying "that source is good enough to get posted on my favorite app, so it's good enough for me". But if you want to believe Ukrainska Pravda go ahead I guess.

    Amnesty International is solely interested in protecting civillians and they have made reports on Ukrainian and Russian war crimes from 2014 until present day. I think they have captured the truth as best as possible in an active warzone, over the years.
    And what did they achieve with that report? Nothing positive, zero, nothing.
    On the other hand they gave Russia the option to use their report as an excuse when they attack civilian residential areas, no wonder that when the report came out, the local office immediately distanced themselves. They claimed it was compiled by foreign observers.

  7. #4927
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    And what did they achieve with that report? Nothing positive, zero, nothing.
    On the other hand they gave Russia the option to use their report as an excuse when they attack civilian residential areas, no wonder that when the report came out, the local office immediately distanced themselves. They claimed it was compiled by foreign observers.
    So now you don't want to have human rights reports? I think this is an unsafe thing, we should know what Ukraine's military is doing, along with every other military in the world.
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  8. #4928

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future



    Ukrainian Army receives initial batch of Kirpi armoured vehicles from Turkey
    According to some reports, like one from Militarnyi, Turkey has delivered an initial batch of 50 Kirpi mine-resistant, ambush-protected (MRAP) vehicles to the Ukrainian forces.
    New armored vehicles were received by the Marines of the Naval Forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, according to a Militarnyi report.
    The Kirpi (Hedgehog) is produced by the Turkish privately owned company, BMC. As noted by the company, it is practically a legend with its superior level of protection in the mine-resistant vehicle category.
    Kirpi was developed and designed to meet the requirements of the Turkish Land Forces Command (TLFC). It is available in several variants of Kirpi 4×4, Kirpi II (4×4), Kirpi 6×6, and Kirpi 4X4 Ambulance.
    Kirpi MRAP can be armed with a 7.62mm or 12.7mm machine gun. A remote-controlled weapons system can be integrated into the vehicle.
    Kirpi’s V-shaped hull is made of steel armour and can deflect mine blasts away from the vehicle. The vehicle offers protection from armour-piercing rounds, mines, improvised explosive devices (IEDs) and other ballistic threats up to STANAG 4569 Level 3.
    150 more of them are expected to be delivered in the future as well. After Poland's 250 T-72 tanks this is the second largest shipment. Let's see if Russia can keep up.
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  9. #4929
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    So now you don't want to have human rights reports? I think this is an unsafe thing, we should know what Ukraine's military is doing, along with every other military in the world.
    Actually helpful reports, yes.

    This report in short, "FSB rubles well spent"

  10. #4930

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    NATO apologists went from "we must defend human rights no matter what" to "human rights violations done by our side don't count because Putin bad" in just under 6 months.

  11. #4931
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    To keep in mind, the French government declaring open cities in 1940 played a significant part in enabling their defeat during the Blitzkrieg over France.

  12. #4932
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Actually helpful reports, yes.

    This report in short, "FSB rubles well spent"
    Have you not seen a few of the many other reports? They are far more scathing in comparison for example: War crimes of the armed forces
    and security forces of Ukraine: torture and inhumane treatment
    or Breaking Bodies: torture and summary killings in Eastern Ukraine.


    Those reports are far more scathing towards Ukraines military and carry stronger condemnation.
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  13. #4933
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    Have you not seen a few of the many other reports? They are far more scathing in comparison for example: War crimes of the armed forces
    and security forces of Ukraine: torture and inhumane treatment
    or Breaking Bodies: torture and summary killings in Eastern Ukraine.


    Those reports are far more scathing towards Ukraines military and carry stronger condemnation.
    Reports from years ago? First report is from 2016 and the second report is from 2015.

  14. #4934

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    The question is, will the majority of Donbas civilians accept the Ukranian military fighting within civillian areas instead of the fields? Or will this contribute to a decrease in support within the Donbas (in Ukraines most populated region or oblast). If Russia reacts to every Ukranian artillery barrage from within civillian areas, the Ukranian military should evacuate the civillians out or simply establish military zones, if they wish to insist on fighting within the cities. Donbas civilians are already somewhat pro-Russia to begin with so I can't see how exposing Donbas civillians to collateral damage helps the sentiment toward the Ukranian military. As one Donbas woman (whos son serves in the Ukranian military paraphrased put it) "The Ukrainian military should fight in the fields, not our homes.".
    We can only know medium-long term the answer to the important questions you raise, being honest. That said. Ukranians have a better pretext of being "under attack" and thus not exactly with the luxury to decide such settings. The one attacking has much more leverage in deciding such outcomes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    My point is that Zelensky's oligarchy's totalitarian behavior is to be expected, but the point is more about the myth of Ukraine having some kind of moral high-ground over Russia, which it evidently does not (unless one is going through severe CNN overdose).
    Well, regardless of whatever Zelensky is, even assuming he is Oligarch, what matters is what the Cossacks prefer to support.
    In terms of moral ground, the average Russian troop who is in Ukraine forced to do another brother's war, possibly having family in Ukraine prior to the conflict, does not have much blame either. In a way it's another victim, just less of a victim than the invaded.

    Big question is, does Kremlin offer a serious alternative to the Oligarchies and Lobby groups of the West. In older times there was the Politbureau, so the leader had to listen to several opinions (like Princeps Augustus had to listen to Senate, even if he did whatever he wanted at the end), but right now Kremlin leadership seems to follow a Louis XIV path.
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  15. #4935
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Reports from years ago? First report is from 2016 and the second report is from 2015.
    You think it changed since the start of the war? The cycle of violence didn't, it got worse, people have long memories for these things, and much of it is "retribution" according to either side you ask. There are many reports since the start of the war, for example here's one from 2018 and again in 2021 we see the same things happening. It is not exactly hard to find these reports, so maybe you should look for them yourself.
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  16. #4936

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    So the Ukrainians hit a Russian base in Crimea (probably). Don't know what the Russians will do, if anything.

    Although a lot of the commentary from pro-Ukrainian Westerners seems to suggest that they're perfectly fine with ethnic cleansing of Russians in Crimea, which makes their principles look a little weak (reminiscent of the Sudetenland genocide).

  17. #4937
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    So the Ukrainians hit a Russian base in Crimea (probably). Don't know what the Russians will do, if anything.

    Although a lot of the commentary from pro-Ukrainian Westerners seems to suggest that they're perfectly fine with ethnic cleansing of Russians in Crimea, which makes their principles look a little weak (reminiscent of the Sudetenland genocide).
    How does a strategic strike on a Russian military base and critical staging ground for the Russian operation in Ukraine equate to a Ukrainian desire to ethnically cleanse Crimea?

    And the Sudetenland genocide? Are you suggesting the exaggerated German reports of the Czechoslovak government suppressing the Sudeten Germans in 1938, or of the reinstated Czechoslovak government's banishment of all Sudetenland (and all Czechoslovak Germans for that matter) from the country in 1945? As far as I am aware, the Ukrainians have not lashed out against ethnic Russians living in the Western Donbass or the other parts of de facto Ukraine, so what inclination would there be to suppress and drive out the ones living on the Crimean Peninsula?
    Last edited by EmperorBatman999; August 09, 2022 at 10:44 PM.

  18. #4938
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    You think it changed since the start of the war? The cycle of violence didn't, it got worse, people have long memories for these things, and much of it is "retribution" according to either side you ask. There are many reports since the start of the war, for example here's one from 2018 and again in 2021 we see the same things happening. It is not exactly hard to find these reports, so maybe you should look for them yourself.
    Changed since the war? Yes. Pretty obvious that some of the worst atrocities and human rights violations are being committed by Russia, not Ukraine. And I don't think anyone has denied Ukrainian has committed human rights abuses themselves. They still don't top the Russians though.

  19. #4939
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Changed since the war? Yes. Pretty obvious that some of the worst atrocities and human rights violations are being committed by Russia, not Ukraine. And I don't think anyone has denied Ukrainian has committed human rights abuses themselves. They still don't top the Russians though.
    There is much downplaying and denying when it comes to Ukraines human rights violations; you realize Ukraine "topped" the Russians within the Donbas for the past 8 years? It is right there in the reports. For example; here the government in Ukraine was responsible for 68% of the human rights violations.

    Is it then surprising that the cycle of violence continues and the depravities worsen in the name of retaliation?


    During the reporting period, OHCHR documented 201 cases2 of credible allegations
    of 321 human rights violations and abuses, which affected 252 victims.3 Of the 321 human
    rights violations and abuses documented, 112 occurred during the reporting period; the
    Government of Ukraine was responsible for 68 violations (61 per cent),
    armed groups for 19
    (17 per cent), and the Government of the Russian Federation (as the Occupying Power in
    Crimea4) for 25 (22 per cent). The total number of cases documented is comparable to the
    number documented in the previous reporting period.
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  20. #4940
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Russians blaming Ukrainians for returning fire when fired upon by Russian armed and incentivised separatists for last 8 years as followup to Russian annexation of Ukrainian territory. What a shocker.

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