View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

Voters
150. You may not vote on this poll
  • I support Ukraine fully.

    104 69.33%
  • I support Russia fully.

    16 10.67%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.67%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.33%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.67%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.33%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #5081

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Like I said, you can sneak your way out or even claim taht Dugin is a bolshevik in your book but the dude bases his ideas on fascists and he defends that and promotes a fascist expansionist ethnic-nationalist Russian Empire. So in this case, it is quite easy to distinguish his "fascism".
    Again, you were the one who posted vague and poorly phrased criteria that you define as fascist, which can be applied to literally any ideology from past 100 years.
    Also Russian Empire was a monarchy.
    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    This talks about the actions of a private individual, not "the US". And nothing about it seems particularly helpful to the military industrial complex of Germany.
    Providing his government with fiscal ability to modernize it is helpful.
    Americans funding propaganda against opposition to Hitler was also very helpful to Hitler. And same statesmen of course remained in power and prominence throughout Cold War and were never held accountable.
    Yeah, no, that's just bonkers. The US was actively shipping military equipment to the UK and USSR, in no world does it join the Axis.
    US has sided with literally every ideology on the planet, from Islamist theocracy and totalitarian communism to garden variety post-soviet dictatorships. Again, America doesn't have allies, it only has interests.

  2. #5082
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Well, go ahead and clearly define fascism
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  3. #5083

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Well, go ahead and clearly define fascism
    Agrarian autarky + socialism, which reflected rather unique situation which was occurring in early XX century Italy.
    All in all, term is too specific to 20-s Italy with its Bread Wars to really be applied to any other ideology or state in good faith.

  4. #5084
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Agrarian autarky + socialism, which reflected rather unique situation which was occurring in early XX century Italy.
    All in all, term is too specific to 20-s Italy with its Bread Wars to really be applied to any other ideology or state in good faith.
    Let me quote your post on what I wrote in far more detail than in your post:

    Again, you were the one who posted vague and poorly phrased criteria that you define as fascist, which can be applied to literally any ideology from past 100 years.
    It seems however that we will have to go ahead and ask you to clearly define both fascism AND socialism because I am even more confused now.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  5. #5085

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    US has sided with literally every ideology on the planet, from Islamist theocracy and totalitarian communism to garden variety post-soviet dictatorships. Again, America doesn't have allies, it only has interests.
    I get what you're saying, but what solution do you have for the eternal hegemony game? Even Sparta, way after the 300 stand, accepted money and assistance from Persia to build a fleet and crush the Athenians, Sparta becoming the new hegemon.
    And we're talking times centuries BC.

    America on Allies historically speaking they tend to favour the continent from where their inhabitants came from, for a better life. Kinda human nature given if some moved to the Americas 200 years ago family would be left behind in Old World.
    Last edited by fkizz; August 25, 2022 at 06:26 PM. Reason: grammar and add on
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  6. #5086

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Let me quote your post on what I wrote in far more detail than in your post:



    It seems however that we will have to go ahead and ask you to clearly define both fascism AND socialism because I am even more confused now.
    You literally quoted the post that answers your question.
    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    I get what you're saying, but what solution do you have for the eternal hegemony game? Even Sparta, way after the 300 stand, accepted money and assistance from Persia to build a fleet and crush the Athenians, Sparta becoming the new hegemon.
    And we're talking times centuries BC.
    Perhaps we don't need hegemon at all. Multi-polar world seems like a better option. Free market of goods and services improves economies, free market of opinions improves society, so perhaps free market of power would improve the geopolitical situation as well.

  7. #5087

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Perhaps we don't need hegemon at all. Multi-polar world seems like a better option. Free market of goods and services improves economies, free market of opinions improves society, so perhaps free market of power would improve the geopolitical situation as well.
    Sure, sounds good in theory, but how does one even start to make it feasible. When the world was multipolar, let's say classical antiquity, in each of the areas of influence there was the said fight for local hegemony and dominance aswell.

    And free market of opinions is always a challenge, given the world's nature for change, status quo by reflex does not like to hear opinions talking about coming change, but rather to stay the way they are forever, or stay forever in their power and glory days.
    Having best ideas might not be welcome, given tacitally they imply change is coming sooner or later. And understandably so people like having certain moments unchanged or crystalized, but the messenger gets blamed for the "bad news" of change (even if change will improve things). Probably it's in our nature.
    Last edited by fkizz; August 25, 2022 at 06:38 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  8. #5088
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    A multi-polar world is impossible as long as Russia is a unified country and the CCP exists.
    Under the patronage of Pie the Inkster Click here to find a hidden gem on the forum!


  9. #5089

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Sure, sounds good in theory, but how does one even start to make it feasible. When the world was multipolar, let's say classical antiquity, in each of the areas of influence there was the said fight for local hegemony and dominance aswell.
    That wouldn't be a bad thing, at least if compared to current situation, which is worst of all worlds.
    And free market of opinions is always a challenge, given the world's nature for change, status quo by reflex does not like to hear opinions talking about coming change, but rather to stay the way they are forever, or stay forever in their power and glory days.
    Having best ideas might not be welcome, given tacitally they imply change is coming sooner or later. And understandably so people like having certain moments unchanged or crystalized, but the messenger gets blamed for the "bad news" of change (even if change will improve things). Probably it's in our nature.
    Opinions are opinions, whole point is that when all opinions are allowed, best one usually wins.
    People that promote censorship don't want to better society, they just realize that their own ideas aren't good but still want a way to push them.

  10. #5090

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    That wouldn't be a bad thing, at least if compared to current situation, which is worst of all worlds.
    Things can easily get even much worse, at least this much should be avoided.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Opinions are opinions, whole point is that when all opinions are allowed, best one usually wins.
    People that promote censorship don't want to better society, they just realize that their own ideas aren't good but still want a way to push them.
    Well can't argue with that.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  11. #5091
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    The war in Ukraine is a reprehensible violation of international law. As are almost all wars, with reference to the Charter of the United Nations. As were the invasion of Grenada (1983), the attack on Yugoslavia (1999), the War in Iraq (2003), the war in Syria (2011). The range of violations does not end here, curiously perpetrated always by the same actors. Did anyone supported sanctions and the ostracization of the US something like what is happening now? or did you just condemn softly in a whisper?

    It's one thing to say that every country has the right to defend itself against an invasion, regardless of the political regime it has. It's another thing to call a corrupt country a solid democracy and turn reality into a rose-colored fantasy.

    In October 2021, just four months before the war, Ukraine was a playground for corrupt oligarchs, The EU must stop serving as a playground for corrupt oligarchs and officials - Atlantic Council
    War has miraculously transformed Ukraine into a vibrant democracy.

    But the illegal invasion does not lead me to subscribe the ideology of the Ukrainian regime. It is worth reading the law of 1.7.2021, "On the Indigenous Peoples of Ukraine", available at https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/1616-20#Text,

    This law enshrines a policy based on the racial purity of the Ukrainian nation. This law exclusively defends the fundamental rights of the "original peoples of Ukraine", also called "autochthonous peoples of Ukraine" or "indigenous peoples of Ukraine" (Cossacks and Karaite Jews), forbidding "the denial of ethnicity or ethnic identity" of these peoples. To these alone the state guarantees protection "against acts of genocide or any other acts of coercion or collective violence," "against any actions intended to encourage or incite racial, ethnic or religious hatred against them." The rest of the Ukrainians, namely the Slavs (as a rule of Russian origin and Russian speaking), are not part of the pure nation. Russians from Ukraine are not recognized as natives of Ukraine. The previsions of the new law are also available in the Library of Congress. Ukraine: New Law Determines Legal Status of Indigenous people

    Bandera in 2021 was honored by the Ukrainian Institute of National Memory through inclusion in a ‘Virtual Necropolis’ commemorating important historical figures–alongside two commanders of SS battalions (Smovsky Konstantin Avdiyovych, deputy commander of the 118th Battalion of the Schutzmannschaft and Ivan Omelianovycha-Pavlenko, commander of the 109th Schutzmannschaft) who carried out pogroms against Jews. Nazi collaborators included in Ukrainian memorial project -Jerusalem Post

    But monuments to Stepan Bandera are not limited to the virtual realm. In recent years statues have been constructed in honor of Bandera. The Forward is a 122-year-old Jewish publication: Nazi collaborator monuments in Ukraine - The Forward
    ---

    About the war.

    A former NATO leader, a British admiral, in comments reproduced on France 24, is “convinced” that Kherson will be crushed soon by a powerful Ukrainian counterattack and concludes that Putin, in the face of defeat, will be murdered by his deluded followers. Sounds to me more like wishful thinking than a sound military analysis. For its part, Ukraine claims it will recapture Kherson by September

    But... at the same time, there is a deep anguish in these words Ukraine Needs To Win War Before Winter, Says Zelensky Aide

    The Now or never” seems to be a realistic perspective, but Stoltenberg doesn't seem to believe this can happen, as he calls for more sacrifices from the Ukrainian people “Winter is coming, and it will be hard”. In fact, according to some CNN military experts, the Ukrainian elite troops have already been devastated in the Donbass, so they have no chance to counterattack, and Russia has been consolidating its position on the war front.

    On the 24th, Ukraine's Independence Day, the head of NATO, while congratulating Ukraine, said on twitter, “#NATO has supported Ukraine since its independence” (1991)

    Well, it was a lightning-strike maneuver - for a purely defensive alliance. This war is fundamentally the consequence of Washington's obstinacy in wanting to integrate Ukraine into NATO, an integral part of its hegemonic project. Call it autocracies, imperialism, invent whatever narratives you want. But this is where the thing lies. This conflict had been heralded for decades.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Interestingly, defensive realists like Waltz are the advocates of peace, and liberals and constructivists who are the advocates of war.
    The Kosovo War in a Constructivist Perspective - JSTOR
    Constructivism, Strategic Culture, and the Iraq War


    It was a war foretold, and it didn't occur right away in 2014 because Trump won the election. We knew that if the Democrats had won them, the likelihood that the war would have occurred sooner was very high. I do not like Trump for many reasons that are not worth mentioning repeatedly, and also because Trump is a very unstable (which is bad) defensive realist (which is good), but the coterie of Hillary Clinton's foreign relations establishment has taken over again with Biden's rise to power. There is no point in playing offended and immaculate virgins, defenders of the great values of democracy and the liberal order. Perhaps it is no accident that someone slipped up and said that Washington's goal was to militarily defeat Russia in Ukraine.

    Right now, it is safe to say that it's not reasonable to bet on a "defeat Russia" strategy, As Ukraine war bogs down, U.S. assessments face scrutiny

    As Biden faces criticism from Republicans, he also is vulnerable to pressure from the left flank of his party, which is looking for an exit strategy…what is the plan on the diplomatic front?
    As far as the European wartime economy is concerned.
    According to the Politico, “the war in Ukraine, plus earlier price trends, sent EU energy prices up by 40 percent in March compared to the same period last year. When paired with fast-rising inflation, many more people may fall into energy poverty”.
    Completely true- as times passes, ordinary people in Europe are increasingly feeling the economic effects of war. Can't pay, won't pay: thousands in Britain vow to ignore energy bills

    The indomitable Boris seems unimpressed, “If we’re paying in our energy bills for the evils of Vladimir Putin, the people of Ukraine are paying in their blood.” Boris’s "altruism" comes from being rich, it’s the altruism of those who are wealthy, those who do not directly suffer the economic consequences of war. I bet Boris doesn't even know how much he pays at the end of the month, for him it must be a small and irrelevant amount.

    It must be said that the energy crisis conundrum in Europe will not be solved in the next two or three years. The prices are skyrocketing in Europe. Here, Electricity prices will increase by 40% by end of month
    And, even worse, the next month they will go up again, most likely, and so on, I think. Social unrest in Europe is a real possibility this winter. The Great European Energy Crisis Is Now Coming for Your Food

    Josep Borrell acknowledged on Wednesday in an interview with the Efe Spanish news agency that "it is not good news" that Russia is making more money from rising gas prices but said that "what it gets" from the sale of this fuel "serves little purpose."

    Whether true or false, in saying this, Borrel avoids the underlying question, which is central to our concerns: this situation of Europe's impoverishment is here to stay.
    In the beginning of the war, the peregrine idea that it would be possible to isolate with sanctions countries that play key roles in the international division of labor, such as Russia or China, without any rebound effect, could only appeal to the heads of some unwise European rulers.

    The European industrial model based on competitive advantages gained at the expense of cheap Russian gas has burned out. In this new era of proxy warfare, now we are going down the drain buying gas from the much more expensive “freedom” gas.

    To make matters worse, what is inevitable in these situations always happens: profits over people, BP earned €8.2 billion ($8.45 billion)
    Between April and June, triple what it made in the same period of 2021, while Shell earned £9.4 billion in the same quarter. Centrica, the owners of British Gas, saw a profit of £1.3 billion in the first six months of 2022, five times the sum it made in the first half of 2021

    UK energy bill strike campaign gains support

    More than half of households in the UK, about 15 million people, will have been pushed into fuel poverty. Fuel poverty will drive up serious ill health and early deaths.
    One more to add to the Ukraine’s blacklist, Jeffrey D. Sachs is a University Professor and Director of the Center for Sustainable Development at Columbia University, where he directed The Earth Institute from 2002 until 2016. He is also President of the UN Sustainable Development Solutions Network and a commissioner of the UN Broadband Commission for Development. He has been advisor to three United Nations Secretaries-General, and currently serves as an SDG Advocate under Secretary-General Antonio Guterres. Sachs is the author, most recently, of "A New Foreign Policy: Beyond American Exceptionalism" (2020). Other books include: "Building the New American Economy: Smart, Fair, and Sustainable" (2017) and The Age of Sustainable Development," (2015) with Ban Ki-moon.

    The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China


    The essential narrative of the West is built into U.S. national security strategy
    This statement does not offend anyone, it is just a reality check.
    Last edited by Ludicus; August 26, 2022 at 12:31 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  12. #5092
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Moving on to whataboutism now Ludi?

  13. #5093

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Its a good observation, that conflict was de-facto "frozen" during Trump's presidency, but Russians decided that its time when they saw the leadership vacuum in US in 2021. I wouldn't even be surprised if Democrat's "fortification" of 2020 election results was aided by Kremlin, which would explain why they project their ties to Putin on their opponents.

  14. #5094
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Here, in the most western side of the opinion, in this "Garden of Europe by the sea planted" described the poet Tomás Ribeiro, now under its worst drought in at least 500 years, the mere mention of the need to find a way out of the war immediately brings down on those who dare to suggest it the accusation of being Pro-Russians and/or the insulting epithet of "pacifist”. And while NATO is lauded and praised for the unwavering unity of Europeans in supporting Ukraine and upholding democratic principles, we see Sweden and Finland handing over Kurdish political refugees to Erdogan as the price for NATO membership. We see Joe Biden crossing an ocean and a continent to bow at the feet of the Saudi prince who cut a journalist to ribbons and who spreads Islamic terror at home and funds it out of doors. And we hear the call from the Baltic countries for all Russian citizens to be banned from entering Europe. 'Visiting Europe is a privilege, not a human right”, they say.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    The drastic and "never-before-seen" (sic) sanctions imposed on Russia to punish its aggression have hit virtually all exports, prudently leaving out oil and gas, on which much of Europe depends to keep warm and run its economy. And after so many sanctions against Russia, how ironic is to hear about Russian blackmail when Gazprom announces three days of gas supply suspension through Nordstream I.
    It is deeply ironic that the EU is paying 89% more for Russian fuels, even though it is getting 15% less of those products!
    UE está a pagar mais 89% pela energia da russa desde
    The Eurostat figures echo those presented by the Center for Energy and Clean Air Research, which points out that the EU has paid Moscow €14.1 billion for coal, oil and gas since Russian troops invaded Ukraine last February 24. The same organization estimates that the total expenditure in the six months since the invasion is 85 billion euros, close to the 102 billion euros that the EU bloc has paid to Moscow in the entire year 2021. This source of revenue has allowed Russia to record a surplus of 166.6 billion euros in July 2022,

    Analyst Goerg Zachmann of think tank Bruegel notes that "Europe has not sanctioned Russian gas," pointing out that "it is Russia that sanctions us"
    Despite all this, and despite the OECD's gloomy forecasts for the European economy next year, it looks like the war is about to go on indefinitely, and that it is worth it. At least that's what we read, written by the pen of some wise economists, who assure us that if we are doing badly in Europe, Russia is doing worse, with sanctions.




    French Electricity Price Exceeds 1000 Euros for First Time


    The high power prices could force industries to shut facilities or scale back -- and some may never turn back on
    Western Europe we will soon experience a long cold winter. Food and energy shortages, along with uncontrollable inflation, will bring home the reality of the true cost of war.

    About the Ukraine’s post-war recovery. That is, if Biden wins the long war of attrition he is determined to fight. (It’s easier to win the lottery)
    Outcome Document of the Ukraine Recovery Conference
    Recognize that the Recovery and Development Plan is a living document which will need to be consulted and adapted over time to reflect changing circumstances.
    The devil is in the word "reforms”: The Lugano Declaration states that reforms must continue: Ukraine Recovery Conference

    Make no mistake,this is about how the financial powers can profit from the Ukraine’s devastation: documents from the 2018 Ukraine Reform Conference emphasized the importance of privatizing most of Ukraine’s remaining public sector, stating that the “goal of the reform is to sell state-owned enterprises to private investors, along with calls for more “privatization, deregulation, energy reform, tax and customs reform.Reforms in Ukraine: - Progress and Priorities 2018

    It will be the same neoliberal shock therapy imposed on Russia after the breakup of the Soviet Union: privatization of state sector assets, reform of labor laws land reform and sale of Ukrainian land and assets to foreign investors. I’s nothing new, we know what happened before.
    Just before the fall of Berlin in 1945, the trapped Berliners resigned themselves to their fate, yet there was a joke around, "enjoy the war, because the peace will be terrible"...
    The Neoliberal Origins of Russia's War
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    US President Biden has called for ‘regime change’ in Russia, a statement that should recall previous US-led regime change crusades – in Chile (1973), Iraq and Afghanistan, among many. To put it mildly, they have not been unmitigated successes. But the regime change initiative that deserves our scrutiny today was the United States’ most ambitious and most relevant to the latest demand for change, which one would dearly like to see. This is because it embraced Russia and Ukraine thirty years ago.
    Let me preface this article by saying that, fortuitously, I witnessed what the USA, the UK and others did on the ground. In 1990, on behalf of the International Labour Organisation (ILO), I organised an international conference on labour policy in Moscow, which emerged as a report just as the Soviet Union was dissolving. I was then appointed director of a programme set up by the ILO to advise governments in the region on social and labour policies in what was euphemistically called the ‘transition’ from ‘communist’ to a ‘market’ economy.
    Based in Budapest, for about four years I interacted with senior government ministers and officials of Russia, Ukraine and neighbouring countries while also having numerous meetings with economists and officials from the USA, other countries and international bodies such as the World Bank, the latter all committed to their version of regime change. It was a bizarre experience. I even met the Queen, the Duke of Edinburgh and the Queen of The Netherlands as they played walk-on parts in helping to legitimise the expensive regime change plans.
    From the outset, I strongly opposed what was happening, and gave numerous speeches and published articles and several books to that effect. Today, I believe that the Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022 is partly attributable to the neo-liberal strategy led by the USA in that period. The precise details of what has been happening were not predicted or predictable, but it was clear at the time that the fault lines leading to today’s quagmire lay in that strategy. One way of putting it is that it failed to lay the ghost of Stalinism and created fertile ground for its resurgence.

    Shock doctrine

    So, what was the foreign-directed strategy? Although different proponents had variants, it enshrined a doctrine fostered by economists at Harvard, LSE and elsewhere known as ‘shock therapy’, designed with one objective, turning Russia and Ukraine into capitalist economies. This was based on three premises. First, it was reasoned that pro-market reforms had to be introduced quickly, so that there was no time for ‘socialist’ forces to regroup and block reform.
    Second, a more technical premise was that priority had to be given to macro-economic policy, backed by aid conditionality to force the Russian (and Ukrainian) government to adhere to it, over and before micro-economic (structural) policy. This was based on the orthodox economic view that macro-stabilisation was a necessary prior for structural reform. This was the dominant reasoning of the International Monetary Fund. The third premise was that there had to be a particular sequencing of the macro-economic reforms. The combination of these three premises was literally the fatal, hubristic mistake.
    Before describing what the shock therapy advisers prescribed in their frenzy of activities in Moscow, Kiev, St.Petersburg and elsewhere, I should mention that as soon as I was appointed to my ILO post we mobilised funds to conduct a series of detailed surveys of hundreds of industrial enterprises in Russia (1991-94) and in Ukraine (1992-96), and extensive household surveys covering many thousands of households in both countries. In effect, the data mapped the context and outcomes of the shock therapy doctrine. This seemed an essential task, but the shock therapy advisers charged ahead without worrying about evidence.

    Folly and hubris

    It was an exercise of hubristic folly. The first set of reforms in the sequencing were price liberalisation, coupled with removal of price subsidies (except on energy). Bear in mind that production had collapsed, that strict price controls had existed for generations and that the production structure consisted of huge industrial enterprises with monopolistic characteristics, dominating whole sectors and regions.
    The effect of price liberalisation was thus an extraordinary burst of hyper-inflation. While we were working in Ukraine, in one year inflation was estimated at over 10,000%, and in Russia it was estimated at over 2,300%.[1] The impoverishment was lethal. Millions died prematurely; male life expectancy in Russia fell from 65 to 58 years, female from 74 to 68; the national suicide rate jumped to over three times the high level of the USA.
    In a collective state of denial, the western economic ‘advisers’ were almost Stalinist in their zeal. Their second policy was to slash public spending, with the double objective of squeezing inflationary pressure by curbing monetary demand and weakening the state. This had the immediate consequence of intensifying the rising mortality and morbidity. But it did something else that is affecting the whole world today. Wages and salaries in the public sector fell so low that the state ceased to function. This created a vacuum in which the kleptocrats thrived. I recall government ministers asking for $50 bribes just so they could feed their family. They were easy prey to ruthless gangsters, who in turn were bedfellows with ex-KGB officers, led by the new First Deputy Mayor of St.Petersburg, a certain Vladimir Putin.
    One cannot overemphasise the folly of the anti-state ideology, when what was needed desperately was the nucleus of a professional civil service, backed by a proper legal system. But all the RCAs wanted was full-blown capitalism, which they saw as leading to a ‘Russian Boom’, in which ‘democracy and free markets have taken root for good’.

    Mass privatisation

    The third plank of the shock therapy sequencing was mass privatisation. It began as a bit of a joke, with privatisation ‘shares’ being handed out like confetti. I still have one somewhere, given to me by the Mayor of St.Petersburg. But it soon became a wild-west plunder. The World Bank, USAID, the new European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (EBRD) in London and other foreign bodies allocated vast amounts to assist in speeding up the transfer to the new ‘entrepreneurs’. Over 15,000 state firms were sold off; kleptocrats became oligarchs overnight; their American and other foreign ‘advisers’ became multi-millionaires. This is when the criminality stretched across the Atlantic.
    One still has to be circumspect in how one puts this. However, it was widely known that prominent economists in the ‘regime change’ community were linked to the rising oligarchy and making millions of dollars. Eventually, one case was brought to the Massachusetts High Court, where several professors pleaded guilty to insider trading. They paid modest fines, with Harvard paying much more, but the main one was allowed to continue his stellar career. Rest assured, he and others did very well.
    Meanwhile, there was the awkward onset of the fourth phase of the sequencing, characterised as the ‘therapy’ after the ‘shock’. This was touted as building a new social policy system, based on standard neo-liberal lines, that is, a residual welfare state with as much privatisation as possible, beginning with pension systems and education. As some of us had argued from the outset, the erection of a universalistic social protection system should have been done before any ‘shock’ policies. Callously, implementing social policies was left to afterwards, and then only done patchily, with interminable delays.

    Carnage

    The carnage was palpable. In this period, two personal events occurred that epitomised the madness of what was happening. In 1992, I was invited as a ‘labour market expert’ to give a lecture to Ministers of Finance and Ministers of Education from eastern European countries, organised by the World Bank in a Dutch castle, symbolically with its own moat. There I listened while the Ministers were told what policies they should be introducing if they wanted foreign loans or grants.
    The other event was even more bizarre. In 1993, I was chairing a small conference in France on minimum wages and basic income policies for eastern Europe when I received a phone call from a US Ambassador inviting me to Washington to give a briefing in the State Department. After doing background checks, I accepted and so found myself taken to the basement of the State Department. Sitting at a long table with a ‘minder’, I was surprised to find 12 men come in to sit on the other side. Chaired by an Under-Secretary of State, they identified themselves individually, and most said CIA.
    I told them that their policies were disastrous, that huge numbers of Russians and Ukrainians were dying as a result of shock therapy and that contrary to what they were reporting, real unemployment was about 25%, concealed by the fact that enterprises were retaining the work history books of workers to claim subsidies. I argued that the people with whom they were working at the political level were deeply corrupted, and that they should focus on providing direct aid to ordinary people if a lurch to neo-fascism was to be avoided.
    I argued that restructuring of enterprises and the substitution of rules of regulation and law should take precedence over macro-economic reforms and privatisation. I poured as much scorn as I could on claims being made by the World Bank and prominent RCA economists that there was no unemployment, and argued that it was crazy for the Bank to withhold a large loan to aid the unemployed on the presumption that as one Bank report claimed, the unemployment rate was only 1%, backed by the statement, ‘Contrary to initial expectations, unemployment remains not only low but declining.’[2]
    This was ridiculous. It was clear that the neo-liberal strategy was simply creating a kleptocratic capitalism, a virulent form of rentier capitalism that was taking shape globally. A new class structure emerged, with a plutocracy of oligarchs, a tiny salariat (including educated people trying to build a decent society), a lumpenised proletariat (ageing, atavistic) and a rapidly growing precariat. The oligarchs in Ukraine were split, with Russian-speaking heavies allied to their Russian counterparts in mafia-style conflict with Ukrainian-speaking oligarchs. There were also a few Bulgarians, Romanians and others in their orbit, and they all soon found they could mingle comfortably with the financial and other plutocrats in London, Wall Street and elsewhere.

    Venal kleptocracy

    After the State Department meeting, I returned to Hungary. Several months later, I was invited back to Washington to brief the Department of Labor. Afterwards, they gave me a cocktail, and at the back I saw two of the CIA officers who had been in the State Department briefing. I asked them what had happened after the first briefing. One said to me, conspiratorially, ‘Quite frankly, it went right to the top….and he doesn’t believe you.’ He meant President Clinton.
    Several months after that, the Russian elections took place, and the new party of the neo-Stalinist ultra-nationalist Vladimir Zhirinovsky, who advocated invasion of Ukraine, gained 23% of the vote, with the US-backed neo-liberal party reduced to a rump. I sent a one-liner telegram to one of the CIA officers, ‘Does the State Department believe me now?’ I was told later that this caused some wry amusement.[3]
    In sum, the regime change strategy had generated a venal kleptocracy, and in line with that today we have globally a morally indefensible form of rentier capitalism where plutocrats are funding major political parties and politicians in their interest. It is the most unfree market economy ever conceived and it is not sufficient to see the UK as Butler to the World, however apt that description might be. The state is deeply corrupted, and we will not escape the quagmire until a new progressive, transformative politics emerges, one that could mobilise the precariat in all parts of the world.
    The evil being perpetrated by Russia will not be defeated by military means alone. Of course, we should all admire and support the incredibly courageous Ukrainians. But it is a transformation of our own societies that must be achieved. In response to the rush towards an ecological dystopia and a grotesquely unequal and insecure existence for so many, progressives in politics must have a coherent, well-articulated strategy for dismantling rentier capitalism.
    Today, neo-liberalism is not the primary enemy. Today is the time for a new radicalism based on principled opposition to the global plutocracy and to the system of rentier capitalism that is based on rapacious plunder. We need a new Renaissance, to revive conviviality, commoning, republican freedom and equality. So far, in Britain and elsewhere, that transformative vision is being held back by excessive pragmatism by old-left parties. However, just as Nature abhors a vacuum, so does the human condition. We need a progressive revolt, one that crosses national boundaries and that is ecologically redistributive. One can see the green shoots but must just hope there is time for them to grow.



    Biden’s dream of a European Afghanistan is now in the hands of a two (or three?) stars American general. Biden to name a US military operation for Ukraine
    …a general will be appointed for a separate command, too.

    Two things that point to the notion that Washington is supporting a long war in Ukraine, and truly doesn’t think there will be a diplomatic solution or cessation of violence there anytime soon: one, the $3 billion in recently announced military transfers is a “multi-year military investment” including weapons that won’t be available via defense contractors for at least three years.
    Secondly, a little nugget dropped on us Wednesday night: Biden plans on “naming” the U.S. military assistance mission in Ukraine and making it a separate command with its own general. You know, like Operation Desert Storm, Operation Gothic Serpent, Operation Uphold Democracy, or Operation Unified Protector. We can expect the name, when it comes, will be heavy on the righteous benefactor angle, softer on the sword. But it is nevertheless a military operation, and that carries with it some practical, and serious implications.

    From WSJ:

    The naming of the operation formally recognizes the U.S. effort within the military, akin to how the Pentagon dubbed the missions in Iraq and Afghanistan Operation Iraqi Freedom, Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Freedom’s Sentinel.

    The naming of the training and assistance is significant bureaucratically, as it typically entails long-term, dedicated funding and the possibility of special pay, ribbons and awards for service members participating in the effort. The selection of a general, expected to be a two- or three-star, reflects the creation of a command responsible to coordinate the effort, a shift from the largely ad hoc effort to provide training and assistance to the Ukrainians for years.

    This does not seem like a formula for bringing the war to a swift end.

    This seems like an all-too familiar set up for a “long hard slog.” Ukraine may be in the driver’s seat today, but the West, which most certainly includes the hawkish UK foreign policy elite, appears to be more interested in seeing this through as this era’s Soviet-Afghan war, or the U.S. war in Afghanistan itself, which took two decades before Washington finally threw up its hands and walked away.

    Russia, for its part, just announced a plan to expand its military forces, signaling its own commitment to the long war.
    Rather than putting energy into getting both sides into a position where they can begin talking about a ceasefire and some sort of negotiated settlement, Washington is naming a new command. If this is not acknowledging a deeper level of U.S. military involvement, what is it? And if so, why shouldn’t the American people be wary?
    “This move could signal to other actors in the conflict — particularly the Ukrainian and Russian governments — that the United States is planning on getting significantly more directly involved in the war itself. That of course could lead to the war being prolonged and raise the risk of escalation between the United States, NATO, and a nuclear-armed Russia,” says Dan Caldwell, senior advisor to Concerned Veterans of America.

    Putting a name on an operation is far more significant than merely coming up with a catchy tagline. It confers an intent to provide long term, sustained, and expensive support to one side of a war that we are not fighting,” adds (Ret.) Lt. Col. Daniel Davis, senior fellow and military expert at Defense Priorities. It’s curious, he added, “especially as the United States is suffering its highest inflation in four decades, recently saw record-high gasoline prices, and as many experts warn a recession may hit this winter.”

    Caldwell suggests this could allow the Pentagon to carve out a protected fund for the war. “Establishing a formal, named-mission or military task-force specifically for Ukraine could further open the door to moving funding for the war in Ukraine to the Overseas Contingency Operations budget, which is essentially the Pentagon’s slush fund. That could be one of the primary motivations here – the Pentagon wants a steady stream of funding from a source that Congress has shown a lack of willingness to properly oversee.”
    That concern, and for the trajectory overall, should trigger lawmakers’ radars, because whether they want it or not, they bear a role, said Davis.
    “If there is to be any long-term and costly diversion of American resources to support someone else’s unwinnable fight, the U.S. Congress must weigh in and the people of our country must have a chance to make their opinions known. But no matter what, it’s not up to the White House and Pentagon alone to decide what this country does and doesn’t support long term.
    Meanwhile 'Germany's military stocks are not enough to send more weapons to Ukraine.

    We have an absolute deficit in our own stocks
    Last edited by Ludicus; August 28, 2022 at 05:54 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  15. #5095

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    First Ludicus, I don't care how much Russian whining and victimhood fetishism impresses you, and I absolutely don't care about the argument "Well US/the west did something bad, so Russia can do whatever it wants to whoever it wants."

    Russia invaded Ukraine. Russia did this, not the United States. In no way did the United States force Russia to invade Ukraine against it's will. And you have spent every moment since then defending every action of Russia and lambasting Ukraine for resisting them and saying Ukraine provoked Russia, in the exact same way rape victims are accused of "asking for it."

    Is there no red line for you when it comes to Russia? Is there no crime they could commit that you won't accept? Is there no behavior you will not tolerate as long as the "right" people are doing it?

    What if it was you? What if a pack of Russians banged on your front door to murder you and drag your daughter from her bed to rape her, those men you cheer on and defend now? I don't think you would "choose neutrality."

  16. #5096
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Here, in the most western side of the opinion, in this "Garden of Europe by the sea planted" described the poet Tomás Ribeiro, now under its worst drought in at least 500 years, the mere mention of the need to find a way out of the war immediately brings down on those who dare to suggest it the accusation of being Pro-Russians and/or the insulting epithet of "pacifist”.
    If you know a "way out of the war" that wont involve 43 million people becoming slaves under a fascist dictatorship, by all means tell us.
    Other than that, if you keep hinting that it is Ukraine who should stop the war by surrendering, yes, thats pretty Pro-Russian.

    -
    Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu is now being side-lined within the Russian leadership, with operational commanders briefing President Putin directly on the course of the war.

    By directly intervening in the management of military operations, Putin is taking a huge risk, since from now on the successes achieved by the troops will also be his victories, but if they fail, Putin will bear the direct responsibility.
    Tsar Nicholas II did this the last time in Russian history, which did not end well. Even Stalin made sure that he formally managed the war as a member of a committee, where he had a good number of candidates to blame in case things did not go according to plan at the front.

  17. #5097

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I'm pretty sure every country leader is briefed directly on things like wars or natural disasters, doesn't mean they are micromanaging it.

  18. #5098
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    I'm pretty sure every country leader is briefed directly on things like wars or natural disasters, doesn't mean they are micromanaging it.
    It is not a new thing:
    Putin's Micromanagement of Ukraine War To Blame for Russian Failures—Report
    Shoigu oversaw Russia's annexation of Crimea in 2014, and he was overseeing the "special military operation" too, now Putin is doing it.

    Not the best timing because it seems the Ukrainian just started their Kherson counter offensive, they have already breached Russia's first line of defence near Kherson.

  19. #5099

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Western military sources cited by U.K. newspapers the Guardian and The Times said.
    Haha, lmao.
    Not the best timing because it seems the Ukrainian just started their Kherson counter offensive, they have already breached Russia's first line of defence near Kherson.
    Is that like their 10th or 20th counter-offensive in that region so far?
    Ukraine and NATO are ing dumb. If they wanted to win, they should have attacked into Russian territory near Bryansk and Kursk, instead they attack exactly where Russians want them to.

  20. #5100
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Haha, lmao.
    Yeah, its pretty stupid even from Putin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Is that like their 10th or 20th counter-offensive in that region so far?
    I believe this is the first big one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Ukraine and NATO are ing dumb. If they wanted to win, they should have attacked into Russian territory near Bryansk and Kursk, instead they attack exactly where Russians want them to.
    Right, to give Putin the long-awaited excuse so that he can finally mobilize, that would be the smart thing.

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