View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    104 69.33%
  • I support Russia fully.

    16 10.67%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.67%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.33%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.67%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.33%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #3281

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    1. The problem with America, like Rome, special interests.

    2. Thank god Forty Five turned out to be an incompetent populist.

    3. Putin is an oriental despot.

    4. Stalin had actual plans, not just pipe dreams.

    5. Putin is an unpleasant room mate, who if he stayed on his side of the apartment, could be tolerated.

    6. But he's taken over the kitchen.

    7. In theory, you could swallow that and just order take out.

    8. But you know he wants to take over the toilet next, and that is beyond the pale.

    9. So, it's better to send in your girlfriend to defend the kitchen.

    A. I suspect that the Ukrainian game plan is similar to Kiev.

    B. Let the Russian columns pile in for a couple of days.

    C. Then ambush them and cut logistics.

    D. Followed up by an armoured counter attack.

    E. It seems pretty clear, that if NATO wanted to go nuclear, they could shut down the Russian internet completely, and the anonymous hackers hammering away at the Russian government's databases are basically a warning.

    F. So, how many troops and tanks will Putin commit to the Easter Offensive?

    G. He certainly will need air superiority.

    H. And more tanks than the Ukrainians have massed guided anti tank weapons in the Donbass.

    I. And even then, Molotov cocktails seem an option.

    J. Have the survivors of Kiev learned anything?

    K. Caution, probably.

    L. Balanced by an unrealistic time table.

    M. Satellite images will track where the Russians are setting up their staging areas, and what logistic routes they will be using.

    N. Presumably, you get an accurate count on the number and type of vehicles.

    O. The unpredictable factor would be helicopter borne air mobile formations.

    P. Russian satellite spy network has decayed, so they're probably relying on the Chinese to provide data.

    Q. The Russians appear to be regrouping their combat aircraft; speculation is (comparatively) massive bombing campaign ahead.

    R. I'm kinda surprised technicals haven't appeared yet, on the Ukrainian side.

    S. Though I understand that they want to turn helicopters into ad hoc gunships.

    T. If the Russians are constrained by mud, so are the Ukrainians.

    U. Difference, they're pre positioned, and the Russians have to move into their territory.

    V. Donbass has got to be the equivalent of Kursk.

    W. It won't end the war, in any event, but if the Russians manage to squeeze shut the salient, their front lines are easier to consolidate, and they can pretend everything is fine on Mayday.

    X. But if they don't manage to squeeze the pimple, their flanks are extremely exposed, their vehicles are stuck, and the Ukrainian commando parties start picking off their tanks and tankers.

    Y. It's hard to keep track of all the ironmongery technical details, but it seems that the Russians need to supply two different fuel types to their vehicles.

    Z. Sweden and Finland should be able to move with impunity towards NATO membership; hard to think even Putin would be dumb enough to ignite a two front war.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  2. #3282
    Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Surely we can make a negotiated settlement? Putin is not Hitler. We do business with worse people.


    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBN View Post
    Is that Warhammer Lingo, Cyclops?


    ...
    Shut up.

    Actually its from Mount and Blade Bamnerlord, the Beyraktar of FP Slashers. Busted.

    You make an interesting point with the 1812 analogy, i gad not thought of it. A future Russian president might get to prove his chops with a face saving junk time victory at New Orlevostok.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  3. #3283
    StarDreamer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Finland is now weeks away from applying for NATO membership. Sweden likely to follow shortly after that.
    Also to ensure that there will be no interference, some of the "larger NATO countries" have been said to guarantee security for the duration after applying to membership.

    It would seem like a bad idea for Russia to try and intervene to stop this now.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
    https://www.politicalcompass.org/ana...2.38&soc=-3.44 <-- "Dangerous far right bigot!" -SJWs

  4. #3284

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by bitterhowl View Post
    Let's wait a little and see what international captives from Azovstal' will say about peaceful Ukraine and Chernobyl. So excited!
    And who wrote "Goebbels"?
    Except the guy in black is clearly not the same guy as in the next pic, the first pic was actually taken second, and you can actually see a visible wound on the dead person's arm. If this is your standard of proof it is quite lacking.

    And I guess Russian propaganda is now responsible not only of butchering logic and reality, but also the English language.

  5. #3285

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    Finland is now weeks away from applying for NATO membership. Sweden likely to follow shortly after that.
    Also to ensure that there will be no interference, some of the "larger NATO countries" have been said to guarantee security for the duration after applying to membership.

    It would seem like a bad idea for Russia to try and intervene to stop this now.
    Finland's already a member of the EU anyway. Besides, do the Russians even have any forces available capable of invading Finland?

  6. #3286
    bitterhowl's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBN View Post
    What the hell does Mariupol have to do with Chernobyl? They are a zillion kms away.

    I want to know what you have been taught about Chernobyl in school, not what some kidnapped ukranian will say about "Great Leader" under threat of violence.

    2 months to take a "friendly" city and nothing else... Quite the achievement...
    Why school? I already was born when it happens. And looks like one forget that I'm living this country for more than 30 years and I no need to study or use Wikipedia or NY Times, you know.

    I was told about Hitlerjugend at school, about Nazis hystery at 1945. Something like this I suppose
    In Mariupol there was an orphanage "Pilgrim", the children of which were supervised by "Azov" for 8 years

    The curatorship consisted in that the girls were made snipers, and the boys were trained in the art of war.

    So, these teenagers after the start of the military operation fought together with Azov and, in addition, following the orders of their curators, set fire to peaceful houses.
    https://t.me/ukr_leaks_eng/112

    My sister, do you still recall the blue Hasan and Khalkhin-Gol?
    Russian warship is winning. Proofs needed? Go find yourself!

  7. #3287
    reavertm's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by bitterhowl View Post
    Why school? I already was born when it happens. And looks like one forget that I'm living this country for more than 30 years and I no need to study or use Wikipedia or NY Times, you know.
    That's not the point. He wanted to know what is average Russian taught in school about Chernobyl. We are just puzzled that Russian soldiers not only did not object to being ordered to digg trenches in Red Forest. They were also taking "souvenirs".
    As if knowledge on Chernobyl nuclear power plant disaster was not widespread among Russian youth
    Or actively suppressed.

  8. #3288

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by bitterhowl View Post
    I see some people still thinking it's a Reddit holywar. But it's not. So a cool question means nothing now, same as a cool answer.

    All responsibility for humanitarian losses are on Ukrainian part. No evacuation, no support for civilians, only bloody pranking again and again. Ukraine being "State 404" for a long time. And now this fact just appeared worldwide.
    Well I guess if Russian CIC has no problems in knowingly butchering Ethnic Russians, then not much I can do.
    But does help to explain why things are so top-down and highly centralized.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  9. #3289
    StarDreamer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    Finland's already a member of the EU anyway. Besides, do the Russians even have any forces available capable of invading Finland?
    Yes, but this is about the future security of the Baltic sea area. EU's security guarantees are quite a bit weaker than NATO.

    At the moment, no they don't. About 2/3 of the forces usually stationed in the area close to us are engaged in Ukraine. The remaining 1/3 aren't likely to be the best of those forces and would be unable to effectively mount any attack, but you never know if Russia would be stupid enough to engage in some small scale attacks to try and stop a NATO membership.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
    https://www.politicalcompass.org/ana...2.38&soc=-3.44 <-- "Dangerous far right bigot!" -SJWs

  10. #3290

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by reavertm View Post
    That's not the point. He wanted to know what is average Russian taught in school about Chernobyl. We are just puzzled that Russian soldiers not only did not object to being ordered to digg trenches in Red Forest. They were also taking "souvenirs".
    As if knowledge on Chernobyl nuclear power plant disaster was not widespread among Russian youth.
    Russian troops were warned by the Ukrainian chief safety engineer on site not to go into the forest. He was ignored. Anonymous workers claim troops “seemed to be unaware” of the Chernobyl disaster and panicked when radiation sickness set in, but surely at least some of the officers were adults at the time. Mysterious.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  11. #3291
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBN View Post
    2 months to take a "friendly" city and nothing else... Quite the achievement...
    They still have not been able to fully take the city:

    Mariupol: Presidential Office confirms 36th Brigade Marines have broken through cordon

    Oleksii Arestovych, adviser to the head of the Presidential Office, has confirmed that units of the 36th Independent Brigade of Marines named after Admiral Belinsky have broken through to join the Azov regiment.
    Bloodimir wants to hold a parade in Mariupol on May 9, it will be a sight to behold...

  12. #3292

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Russian troops were warned by the Ukrainian chief safety engineer on site not to go into the forest. He was ignored. Anonymous workers claim troops “seemed to be unaware” of the Chernobyl disaster and panicked when radiation sickness set in, but surely at least some of the officers were adults at the time. Mysterious.
    What the hell, my hometown and my family hosted Belarussian kids from Gomel since I was 11, to keep them away from the radiation. I believe many cities in western Europe have similar programs. Chernobyl is very much alive in my generation's minds.

    Presumably the Russian army would have strong patriotic feelings about that event, as it showcased red army courage in the face of certain death. What those soldiers did was as tragically heroic as the defense of Stalingrad.

    I am in shock that younger generations of russians have no idea of what that place is. Not even with CoD?

    Quote Originally Posted by bitterhowl View Post
    Why school? I already was born when it happens. And looks like one forget that I'm living this country for more than 30 years and I no need to study or use Wikipedia or NY Times, you know.
    I was 4.

    So no one had to tell you about Chernobyl, the information simply popped in your brain when it happened. Any other superpowers you would like to mention?

    And by the way BH, no one here or in Ukraine ever expected Mariupol to survive, as we don't now either. And yet it hasn't fallen. A city that was supposed to welcome you with open arms as soon as you crossed the border. And now you are killing ethnic russian by the thousands to capture it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Bloodimir wants to hold a parade in Mariupol on May 9, it will be a sight to behold...
    Macho Man needs 10 meters of safe space all around him at all times so I suspect he won't go anywhere were there's any chance of drones going berserk on him.

    Unless their new commander is really able to change things on the ground, I don't see how his arrival in Mariupol wouldn't be immediately followed by every single drone in Ukraine going full kamikaze on him.

    So let's hope he really does try it.
    Last edited by Bande Nere; April 13, 2022 at 09:45 AM.

  13. #3293
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    It seems to me and according to the German Constitution, the President represents the Federal Republic of Germany. I would be surprised if there will be no political repercussions.No country likes to see its President humiliated.
    Even though Germany has almost exhausted its ability to supply Ukraine with weapons from its army reserves, Germany Says Limited in Its Arms Shipments to Ukraine
    ... Zelensky isn’t happy, Zelensky blocks German president's Kyiv visit

    For both Zelensky and Poroshenko, the German President is a Putin’s pawn. Poroshenko says,
    'Steinmeier's Formula' was written in the Kremlin

    The so-called “Steinmeier formula”, signed by Volodymyr Zelensky in 2019 during the Normandy meeting in Paris, was written by the Kremlin. It contradicts both the Minsk agreements and Ukraine’s national interests, said Petro Poroshenko... in an exclusive interview with Channel 5...Once again, Steinmeier has nothing to do with this formula. This is Lavrov’s formula, or Putin’s formula. Putin tried to cover up this document and rename it “Steinmeier’s formula.” It was not accepted. And we have never allowed this issue to even be on the agenda.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  14. #3294
    bitterhowl's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Some Chinese collages here
    https://t.me/ConflictChronicles/1096?single

    IDK how it comes to such statements from you, I think same things as on those Chinese pictures. "U killing ethnic russians" instead of "Ukraine killing ethnic Russians".

    Yes, Russians in Eastern Ukraine waited for Russia to come and save them from Ukrainian Nazis. Many comfortable places such as "Library" in Mariupol existed for 8 years, and some "Pit 404" under Azovstal'.
    Last edited by bitterhowl; April 13, 2022 at 10:13 AM.

    My sister, do you still recall the blue Hasan and Khalkhin-Gol?
    Russian warship is winning. Proofs needed? Go find yourself!

  15. #3295
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Yes this was widely seen as a unfriendly act among all main political parties and make a visit of Scholz in Kyiv unlikely, but it will not affect possible arms sales/deliveries or financial aid to Ukraine.

    Even heroic presidents make sometimes diplomatic fauxpas.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  16. #3296
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by bitterhowl View Post
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    In what way does it justify invading a country and murdering innocent civilians?


    I was told about Hitlerjugend at school, about Nazis hystery at 1945. Something like this I suppose
    I'm guessing they skipped the part about how the Soviet Union co-operated with Nazi Germany and endevoured to divide Europe together with them, effectively making them allies. A fact often avoided in Russia.

    Quote Originally Posted by reavertm View Post
    That's not the point. He wanted to know what is average Russian taught in school about Chernobyl. We are just puzzled that Russian soldiers not only did not object to being ordered to digg trenches in Red Forest. They were also taking "souvenirs".
    As if knowledge on Chernobyl nuclear power plant disaster was not widespread among Russian youth
    Or actively suppressed.
    They're told it was an American sabotage, and that the effects are exaggerated. The official death toll is, after all, 31. Some of my family are ardent believers in that gibberish.

  17. #3297
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    They're told it was an American sabotage, and that the effects are exaggerated. The official death toll is, after all, 31. Some of my family are ardent believers in that gibberish.
    Weird. Since you could hang the mistakes on the policy of the defunct USSR . And talk the bravery and sacrifice of the people who kept the situation from running fully out of control.

    ----------------

    Even though Germany has almost exhausted its ability to supply Ukraine with weapons from its army reserves
    Which says volumes about how shoddy/detached from reality German military stockpiles were. I mean if 3000 Panzerfaust 3, 5,100 Matadors(? seems suspect since that seems more than Germany has ordered), A few thousand mostly not working Strellas, and 500 stingers are exhausting their stockpiles. Well Germany was not really ready for a fight were they.
    Last edited by conon394; April 13, 2022 at 11:03 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #3298
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Kinda weird. Since you could hang the mistakes on the policy of the defunct USSR . And talk the bravery and sacrifice of the people who kept the situation from running fully out of control.
    Russia is a state built on lies. It's own lies, Soviet lies, Putin's lies. If the people start realizing that the Soviets lied, they might begin to think "what else might be lies?", and that's dangerous for Putler's Reich. Therefor it is simple: no government of Russia, present or past, lied. Everyone else lies all the time, but Russia? Not even once.

  19. #3299
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    oops doubled was supposed to be an edit
    Last edited by conon394; April 13, 2022 at 11:26 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  20. #3300

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by bitterhowl View Post
    Some Chinese collages here
    https://t.me/ConflictChronicles/1096?single
    IDK how it comes to such statements from you, I think same things as on those Chinese pictures. "U killing ethnic russians" instead of "Ukraine killing ethnic Russians".
    I won't be a hipocrite, even today I still don't understand the Yugoslavia war properly. Sometimes AF just have to follow what Luxury-Politicians demands. How free is the mass media and journalism remains a thorny issue. Another aproach could've been possible, mainly given the Balkans gave historically such support against possible Ottoman invasions from which Mid-Western Europe had more breathing room to develop its Renaissance culture, so western civilization owes them in a way.
    Quote Originally Posted by bitterhowl View Post
    Yes, Russians in Eastern Ukraine waited for Russia to come and save them from Ukrainian Nazis. Many comfortable places such as "Library" in Mariupol existed for 8 years, and some "Pit 404" under Azovstal'.
    Even assuming all of that as true, it starts to lose form when Ethnic Russians get killed anyway in the special operation. How does one expect motivated operational Russian Ethno-Nationalists/Patriots with such orders from the CIC? Of course it's only this much is possible with such Top-Down aproach.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

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