View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    104 68.87%
  • I support Russia fully.

    17 11.26%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.65%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.28%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.64%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.30%
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Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #11201
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    My question was honest, I'm not surprised that you could doubt it, I seem to remember now that I myself asked you a similar question in the past. Without wanting this to sound like an interview or an interrogation, how to hold the United States or Europe responsible for Putin's decision to march on kyiv to demilitarize and denazify Ukraine? We set a trap for him and he was so stupid that he didn't see it? Who, how and why provoked this war?

    From my point of view, Russia follows the pattern of destabilizing an area and then sending its troops to help the insurgents (eg: Russo-Georgian War). The reason is Putin's desire for greatness, his desire to return to the old territorial glory of the USSR, apart from more prosaic goals such as access to important ports and resources.
    Last edited by mishkin; April 19, 2024 at 07:49 AM.

  2. #11202
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    My question was honest, I'm not surprised that you could doubt it, I seem to remember now that I myself asked you a similar question in the past. Without wanting this to sound like an interview or an interrogation, how to hold the United States or Europe responsible for Putin's decision to march on kyiv to demilitarize and denazify Ukraine? Who, how and why provoked this war?

    From my point of view, Russia follows the pattern of destabilizing an area and then sending its troops to help the insurgents (eg: Russo-Georgian War). The reason is Putin's desire for greatness, his desire to return to the old territorial glory of the USSR, apart from more prosaic goals such as access to important ports and resources.
    Listen to Putin's 2007 Munich speech when you have a moment. It might give you some useful hints on what Putin actually has been saying, instead of what the western press is saying that he has. What his, and not only his within Russia, feelings have been about NATO's expansion. Then see what happened in NATO's 2008 Bucharest summit and what was the aftermath. The point basically is, how or why this war was provoked becomes clear as day the moment you choose to genuinely listen to the other side. Their arguments, their understanding of events etc. I am a big proponent of diplomacy and diplomatic solutions to conflict. Genuinely listening to the other side is step one.

    And no, this Putin is an expansionist imperialist spin hellbent on greatness via conquest is not a take I can take seriously. Too many layers of propaganda, too much character assassination, too selective use of facts.

  3. #11203
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    And no, this Putin is an expansionist imperialist spin hellbent on greatness via conquest is not a take I can take seriously. Too many layers of propaganda, too much character assassination, too selective use of facts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Genuinely listening to the other side is step one.
    Do you see the irony? I could accuse you of exactly the same thing that you accuse me of: Layers of propaganda, too much character assassination, too selective use of facts. And about assassinations (real assassination, journalists and opposition) it is better not to talk.

    I have described Putin's modus operandi to you. He has done in Ukraine what he did in Georgia and he is doing it in Moldova right now.

    Regarding Putin's speeches, he spent weeks categorically denying that he was going to invade Ukraine. For this and other things (you really shouldn't have said the word assassination) he has zero credibility, the same credibility that you give to any other leader. You say they are all liars... except Putin. I really don't have anything against you personally, but you just need to finish off your posts with the Russian flag emoticon.
    Last edited by mishkin; April 19, 2024 at 09:54 AM.

  4. #11204
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Do you see the irony? I could accuse you of exactly the same thing that you accuse me of: Layers of propaganda, too much character assassination, too selective use of facts. And about assassinations (real assassination, journalists and opposition) it is better not to talk.

    I have described Putin's modus operandi to you. He has done in Ukraine what he did in Georgia and he is doing it in Moldova right now.

    Regarding Putin's speeches, he spent weeks categorically denying that he was going to invade Ukraine. For this and other things (you really shouldn't have said the word assassination) he has zero credibility, the same credibility that you give to any other leader. You say they are all liars... except Putin. I really don't have anything against you personally, but you just need to finish off your posts with the Russian flag emoticon.
    No, I don't see the irony and I find it rather unexpected that you do. I didn't realize we had a conflict up until now, I thought we were simply exchanging views, besides genuinely listening to the other side doesn't mean uncritically accepting all they say anyway. And that take you mentioned and I rejected is indeed as I described. It's not a take I haven't heard before, quite the opposite, the words I used weren't just for flavour, nor were they targeted at you.

    You have described Putin's modus operandi how? As for Putin doing to Ukraine what he did in Georgia, not quite no. Apart from the military intervention part of course there are several differences present. There is though a fairly similar cause, again check the NATO 2008 Bucharest summit.

    But of course he would deny that. I said very clearly he fibs, simply not needlessly. Not revealing a military plan is not needlessly. At the same time though he communicated through every channel possible his dissatisfaction with the developments in Ukraine. That sth was brewing was obvious. I personally considered a major invasion foolhardy so I can't say I personally expected it. But an intervention? It was hardly hidden that it was coming. And no, he doesn't have zero credibility. If he had zero credibility he wouldn't have communicated in every way possible that he won't accept the situation and what he perceived as NATO encroachment and then actually do sth about it. But he did do sth about it, that's credibility.

    You really don't have anything against me personally, but you do insult me, in the last few pages more and more so. How else am I to take your constant assertions that I should end with Russian smileys and flags and whatnot. I could return that in kind, but I haven't. Whatever the case, I don't think I care to continue this discussion.
    Last edited by Alastor; April 19, 2024 at 12:12 PM.

  5. #11205
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    US House approves $61bn in military aid for Ukraine after months of stalling

    In a bipartisan vote, 210 Democrats and 101 Republicans joined to support Ukraine, with 112 Republicans – a majority of the GOP members – voting against.

  6. #11206
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Listen to Putin's 2007 Munich speech when you have a moment. It might give you some useful hints on what Putin actually has been saying, instead of what the western press is saying that he has. What his, and not only his within Russia, feelings have been about NATO's expansion.
    We should have attacked and dissolved CSTO right after that.


    He and countless lunatics dreamed of Soviet Russia and its successor being an independent power. It's nothing but a empire held together by KGB.

    Why do we even care what he thinks? We are the law. The word modern exists because of us. UN and international order exist because of us. He and those monkey dictators playing kings in their little serfdoms can either follow willingly, or be beaten into submission.

  7. #11207
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Certainly a political victory for genocide Joe, whose objective basically is to keep Ukraine from collapsing before the November elections and spare himself further embarrassment. But also a victory for the US military industrial complex executives that have yet again and in a very capitalist manner siphoned away billions of tax dollars from poor Americans. As for the Ukrainians, well unless some of those billions are spent into acquiring some state of the art cloning vats to generate more soldiers it won't really amount to all that much.

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    We should have attacked and dissolved CSTO right after that.
    He and countless lunatics dreamed of Soviet Russia and its successor being an independent power. It's nothing but a empire held together by KGB.

    Why do we even care what he thinks? We are the law. The word modern exists because of us. UN and international order exist because of us. He and those monkey dictators playing kings in their little serfdoms can either follow willingly, or be beaten into submission.
    I understand this is some kind of an attempt at humour. Some attempt to sarcastically demonstrate the behaviour you want to mock. Or at least I hope it is. Unfortunately though, I can't say I found it too funny.
    Last edited by Alastor; April 20, 2024 at 03:32 PM.

  8. #11208
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Cheering for war, cheering for war never changes.
    In that it is the same as war Maybe that's why one tends to lead to the other.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  9. #11209
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    I had the impression that after the failure of the invasion of Ukraine...
    LOL 😆 so this is where you went wrong. Look at the current map of Ukraine and how much of it is now held by Russia, Ukraine will never get it back.
    Albeit I think Russia won't stop there, I think they will take Odesa before they are done.

  10. #11210
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    LOL �� so this is where you went wrong. Look at the current map of Ukraine and how much of it is now held by Russia, Ukraine will never get it back.
    Albeit I think Russia won't stop there, I think they will take Odesa before they are done.
    They have made NATO reborn, all russian Western neighbors are running to join it and the European Union, Europe is rearming and getting rid of its Russian energy dependence, in the West Putin and his oligarchs are pariahs... You are right, maybe Putin should try to take over all of Ukraine to hide to his fans the debacle that this invasion has entailed.

    Edit: I look forward to Putin's speech from some glorious aircraft carrier in the Black Sea declaring that the objectives (denazification and demilitarization of Ukraine) have been met.
    Last edited by mishkin; April 21, 2024 at 03:48 AM.

  11. #11211
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    They have made NATO reborn, all russian Western neighbors are running to join it and the European Union, Europe is rearming and getting rid of its Russian energy dependence, in the West Putin and his oligarchs are pariahs... You are right, maybe Putin should try to take over all of Ukraine to hide to his fans the debacle that this invasion has entailed.

    Edit: I look forward to Putin's speech from some glorious aircraft carrier in the Black Sea declaring that the objectives (denazification and demilitarization of Ukraine) have been met.
    This is from a non-American viewpoint- NATO is an American puppet, it is the US that makes all the decisions anyways.
    A declining America = declining NATO.
    So keep sinking billions into Ukraine and ensure Biden gets re-elected, most Russians would probably be all for letting the decline continue, particularly if this means putting an end to US acting as world police.
    The problem w US foreign policy has always been that USA doesn't try to be the best by improving the world, but instead it aims to be the best by default; by making everyone else worse off. The rot on world economy i feel can also be atributed to America when I speak to most non-westerners (the majority of word population). I dunno I suppose what I am trying to say is that currently outside America the attitude towards America is mostly not positive.
    So perhaps America's decline (just a little) might be a good thing as far as "homeostasis" of the world, who knows...
    The fact that Russia's GDP grew more than US is a sign not only that the sanctions aren't working but also probably hurting America more than Russia.
    Last edited by Stario; April 21, 2024 at 06:43 AM.

  12. #11212
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    This is from a non-American viewpoint- NATO is an American puppet, it is murica that makes all the decisions anyways.
    A declining murica = declining NATO.
    So keep sinking billions into Ukraine and ensure Biden gets re-elected, I am all for letting the decline continue. I am also all for the end of US acting as world police.
    The problem w US foreign policy has always been that USA doesn't try to be the best by improving the world, but instead it aims to be the best by default; by making everyone else worse off. The rot on world economy i feel can also be atributed to America when I speak to most non-westerners (the majority of word population). I dunno I suppose what I am trying to say is that currently outside America the attitude towards America is mostly not positive.
    So perhaps America's decline (just a little) might be a good thing as far as "homeostasis" of the world, who knows...
    Please no one tell Stario that the American billions are being spent in America and Ukraine is getting stuff produced decades ago in America that would otherwise just sit in a depot somewhere.

    I don't really know how aid to Ukraine is related to Bidens possible re-election.

    Ah yes, America is evil. And also a genocidal facist dictator must be good because anything not America is good. Everyone knows the world was a better place before American hegomony. There were no wars, no imperialism, no genocides and so on. Everything was rosy and everyone was singing and smelling flowers. Oh wait, maybe it wasn't.... Just blaming everything bad in the world on the US doesn't actually make it so.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
    https://www.politicalcompass.org/ana...2.38&soc=-3.44 <-- "Dangerous far right bigot!" -SJWs

  13. #11213
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Regarding this aid, it is also worth noting that Ukraine must return it. (unfortunately in my opinion).
    Last edited by mishkin; April 21, 2024 at 06:49 AM.

  14. #11214
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    Please no one tell Stario that the American billions are being spent in America and Ukraine is getting stuff produced decades ago in America that would otherwise just sit in a depot somewhere.
    Ah OK so the $95 billion aid bill for Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan out of which about 60 billion is going to the Ukraine is ducats from decades ago just sitting all this time in a depot somewhere. Ye cool story 😎

    Also what's Bidens re-election got to do with anything you ask? Well he is so cognitively impaired and driving America down the "dunny" that if I was a Russian I would want him re-elected. Because if your enemy has a Leader as cognitively retarded as Biden you can't possibly loose 🤣
    Last edited by Stario; April 21, 2024 at 07:07 AM.

  15. #11215
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I understand this is some kind of an attempt at humour. Some attempt to sarcastically demonstrate the behaviour you want to mock. Or at least I hope it is. Unfortunately though, I can't say I found it too funny.
    It is not.

    Governments like his are holding human civilization back.

    They do not deserve existence. And anyone who support his action too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Cheering for war, cheering for war never changes.
    In that it is the same as war Maybe that's why one tends to lead to the other.
    next you're going to tell us we should have made peace with hitler.
    Last edited by AqD; April 21, 2024 at 07:18 AM.

  16. #11216
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    It is not.

    Governments like his are holding human civilization back.

    They do not deserve existence. And anyone who support his action too.
    I understand you are committed to this joke. Persistence can be an admirable trait. Unfortunately, I still don't think it's all that funny.

  17. #11217
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    The rot on world economy i feel can also be atributed to America when I speak to most non-westerners (the majority of word population).
    What rot?


    Have you been to Japan, Singapore and South Korea?

    Have you seen how post Soviet countries like Poland transformed?



    Your majority of world population suffers because their ruling class are selfish and useless, literally parasites. Do you know most Japanese were illiterate farmers and fishermen until late 19th century and a generation later they could match a major European power, despite being in a period of ruthless imperialism? Stop blaming US for your own faults.

  18. #11218
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    What rot?
    Fed rate hikes cause the US dollar to skyrocket. So every time Fed chair Jerome Powell stands up to the podium to announce the central bank’s next interest rate decision, he is upping the cost of borrowing for the whole world. The US is spending billions of dollars to support the war effort in Ukraine, while its monetary policy is crushing Europe and emerging markets.

  19. #11219
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    Fed rate hikes cause the US dollar to skyrocket. So every time Fed chair Jerome Powell stands up to the podium to announce the central bank’s next interest rate decision, he is upping the cost of borrowing for the whole world. The US is spending billions of dollars to support the war effort in Ukraine, while its monetary policy is crushing Europe and emerging markets.
    Meanwhile, invading Ukraine made Russia a paradise on Earth and the best place to live 😂

  20. #11220

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    Fed rate hikes cause the US dollar to skyrocket. So every time Fed chair Jerome Powell stands up to the podium to announce the central bank’s next interest rate decision, he is upping the cost of borrowing for the whole world. The US is spending billions of dollars to support the war effort in Ukraine, while its monetary policy is crushing Europe and emerging markets.
    Basic international finance knowledge would show us what you claim here to be false. While we saw changes in exchange rates during the pandemic EUR/USD only played within a small margin. Today, it is pretty much at the same level as what it was 5 years ago.
    The Armenian Issue

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