View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    103 69.59%
  • I support Russia fully.

    15 10.14%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.70%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.43%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.73%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.41%
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Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #11041

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    Interesting to see who Putin is going to blame for the terrorist attack in Moscow
    I think IS already claimed responsibility (but they would anyway).

  2. #11042

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    ISIS claimed responsibility, and looks like it actually was them.

    Russia is trying to spin it to blame the Ukrainians, to the point of releasing fake video:
    https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/03/23/7447789/
    https://meduza.io/en/news/2024/03/23...rrorist-attack

  3. #11043

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    As the US warned Russia about a possible attack, I'd bet money Putin deliberately allowed it to happen as a way to drum up support for his increasingly unpopular regime.

  4. #11044
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Russia is trying to spin it to blame the Ukrainians
    Earlier on Saturday, Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB) claimed that the four main suspects in the attack had planned to flee to Ukraine, where they allegedly had “appropriate contacts,” after the shooting.
    Makes sense, let's flee towards the largest concentration of Russian soldiers and security personnel in the world


  5. #11045
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Makes sense, let's flee towards the largest concentration of Russian soldiers and security personnel in the world

    "Lets flee to a really chaotic area" doesnt sound totally stupid to me. Anyway, ISIS, my condolences to the russian population.

  6. #11046

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    "Lets flee to a really chaotic area" doesnt sound totally stupid to me. Anyway, ISIS, my condolences to the russian population.

    Looks like they were actually heading to Belarus.Article ran through translator: https://www-belta-by.translate.goog/..._x_tr_pto=wapp

  7. #11047
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Ludicus you have quoted the pope, Le Pen and Duda to assert your arguments . Just think about it for a moment.
    Why not the "putinist" Pope?... Did I say anything good about the racist and xenophobic Le Pen? If I've praised Le Pen, God forgive me.
    I quoted Duda, a staunch defender of NATO's expansionism, to counter what he said. "Our overarching priority will be: more of the United States in Europe. That means a more active U.S. presence across the military, economic and political domains"Shouldn't Europe be independent of the hegemonic powers, whatever they may be? less submissive, perhaps?
    I quoted Kennan, a great American diplomat, the man who formulated the policy of "containment" the basic US strategy for fighting the cold war. I said, and that's my opinion, "If they had listened to Kennan, Europe would probably be at peace now instead of at war"
    --
    The double standards towards Israel and Russia are a regrettable game. Russia-Ukraine war: ICC issues arrest warrants for…

    ...for two members of Russian military for missile campaign against 'Ukrainian electric infrastructure'
    Last edited by Ludicus; March 25, 2024 at 05:03 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  8. #11048
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I mean it seems like you need to resort to tremendously disparate and sometimes bizarre things, something that you wouldn't need if you had a more, I don't know how to say it, clear or reasonable position.

  9. #11049
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    I mean it seems like you need to resort to tremendously disparate and sometimes bizarre things, something that you wouldn't need if you had a more, I don't know how to say it, clear or reasonable position.
    There's nothing "bizarre" in what I'm saying. If you find it difficult to understand what is being said, it's not my fault.This war, in addition to having buried once and for all the European Climate Pact, meant total European subordination to the interests of the MIC and energy complex that governs the US. In the coming years, the European hypernacionalism will return in force (in fact, its already returning in force).Very soon, Germany will be squeezed between a resentful France and a militaristic Poland, completely tied to Washington. Never has Europe suffered, in time of war, with leaders so dangerously unprepared to govern. In September 2022, the triumphalism: Ursula von Leyen mocked the Russians, saying that the effectiveness of the sanctions forced Moscow to use chips from household appliances for military purposes. Nowadays, the Russian military industry surpassed all Western production in common war material, such as artillery shells, and old panic ("The Russians are coming!") runs through our European capitals. But going from there to launch the incendiary lie that Russia wants to attack NATO is criminal.Putin knows this would trigger widespread self-destruction. And I hope no one dares to mention the moral superiority of the west. The right to life has a market value, in Ukraine and in Gaza. In fact, the genocide in Gaza marks the death certificate of our alleged "Western values".
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  10. #11050

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    This war, in addition to having buried once and for all the European Climate Pact, meant total European subordination to the interests of the MIC and energy complex that governs the US.
    Europe buried her climate goals when she doubled down on Russian gas instead of investing in nuclear energy. With the US voluntarily receding from global primacy exactly as the tankies have always demanded, they don’t get to blame everything on us anymore, and in this case, it never made sense to do so in the first place.
    In the coming years, the European hypernacionalism will return in force (in fact, its already returning in force).Very soon, Germany will be squeezed between a resentful France and a militaristic Poland, completely tied to Washington.
    I agree France and Poland will take on more prominent European leadership roles now that the UK left and Germany committed suicide, but this is a very good thing if you are European and resent US hegemony. Germany’s manufacturing and exports dominated economy cannot compete without cheap Russian energy in a deglobalized world, and unfortunately, she has no one to blame but herself for leaving her military to rot for ideological reasons, while naively pursuing strategic interdependence with Moscow. Again, the US warned her against this for decades, and now she reaps what she sowed.
    Never has Europe suffered, in time of war, with leaders so dangerously unprepared to govern. In September 2022, the triumphalism: Ursula von Leyen mocked the Russians, saying that the effectiveness of the sanctions forced Moscow to use chips from household appliances for military purposes.
    It’s been amusing to see anti-American narratives flounder amid de-globalization and continued Russian aggression. France isn’t low key fighting the Russians in Africa and talking about transitioning to a war economy and sending troops to Ukraine because America told her to. On the contrary, French resurgence is a direct consequence of strategic autonomy, and she is assuming a natural historical role as a leader in European security while Germany implodes. The plain fact is, Russian expansion and imperialism is a threat to that security, regardless of what America does. We’re even holding up Ukraine aid like you wanted and Europe is taking the lead, so I don’t understand the complaint.
    Nowadays, the Russian military industry surpassed all Western production in common war material, such as artillery shells, and old panic ("The Russians are coming!") runs through our European capitals. But going from there to launch the incendiary lie that Russia wants to attack NATO is criminal.Putin knows this would trigger widespread self-destruction. And I hope no one dares to mention the moral superiority of the west. The right to life has a market value, in Ukraine and in Gaza. In fact, the genocide in Gaza marks the death certificate of our alleged "Western values".
    Russia has completely transitioned to a wartime economy, so of course they’re going to out produce peacetime western production levels. This critique doesn’t even make sense. On the one hand, you’re complaining European military industrial capacity isn’t ramping up fast enough, and on the other, you accuse them of warmongering. Russia is committed to destroying Ukraine and Kremlin officials brag about reclaiming “their” historical lands in the Baltics and elsewhere. War with NATO is not at all out of the question and western values have nothing to do with the fact your position can’t seem to comprehend a world where the end of US dominance has made countries like Russia, Iran and China more aggressive and belligerent, not less. No one relevant cares about the endless “America is a hypocrite” copium anymore.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  11. #11051
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Europe buried her climate goals when she doubled down on Russian gas instead of investing in nuclear energy. With the US voluntarily receding from global primacy exactly as the tankies have always demanded, they don’t get to blame everything on us anymore, and in this case, it never made sense to do so in the first place.

    I agree France and Poland will take on more prominent European leadership roles now that the UK left and Germany committed suicide, but this is a very good thing if you are European and resent US hegemony. Germany’s manufacturing and exports dominated economy cannot compete without cheap Russian energy in a deglobalized world, and unfortunately, she has no one to blame but herself for leaving her military to rot for ideological reasons, while naively pursuing strategic interdependence with Moscow. Again, the US warned her against this for decades, and now she reaps what she sowed.

    It’s been amusing to see anti-American narratives flounder amid de-globalization and continued Russian aggression. France isn’t low key fighting the Russians in Africa and talking about transitioning to a war economy and sending troops to Ukraine because America told her to. On the contrary, French resurgence is a direct consequence of strategic autonomy, and she is assuming a natural historical role as a leader in European security while Germany implodes. The plain fact is, Russian expansion and imperialism is a threat to that security, regardless of what America does. We’re even holding up Ukraine aid like you wanted and Europe is taking the lead, so I don’t understand the complaint.

    Russia has completely transitioned to a wartime economy, so of course they’re going to out produce peacetime western production levels. This critique doesn’t even make sense. On the one hand, you’re complaining European military industrial capacity isn’t ramping up fast enough, and on the other, you accuse them of warmongering. Russia is committed to destroying Ukraine and Kremlin officials brag about reclaiming “their” historical lands in the Baltics and elsewhere. War with NATO is not at all out of the question and western values have nothing to do with the fact your position can’t seem to comprehend a world where the end of US dominance has made countries like Russia, Iran and China more aggressive and belligerent, not less. No one relevant cares about the endless “America is a hypocrite” copium anymore.
    Let us face this painful question: what is the West and what are its current values? Let's start with the US, whose perspective, following the authoritative voices of the White House and Congress, considers there to be a positive outcome of this war. What is at stake is not, and has never been, Ukraine's victory, but rather using these people as a battering ram to weaken Russia, in accordance with strategic guidelines that have long been public and published. 30 years of keeping NATO close to its borders, especially in Ukraine, would make the Russian bear wake up. But the US was on standby. The sanctions, the attack on the export of Russian oil and natural gas, the impediment/sabotage of oil pipelines, the fomenting of instability in the Caucasus, all of this was already prescribed in a vast document that looks more like a declaration of war: James Dobbins et alia, Extending Russia. Competing from Advantageous Ground, Santa Monica, CA, Rand Corporation , 2019, 354 pp. Here:Extending Russia: Competing from Advantageous Ground
    In this positive balance of the US,in addition to the rupture of ties between Berlin and Moscow, there is also the enlargement of NATO and the conviction that Europe will permanently increase purchases of US weapons (whether Biden or Trump wins), ensuring that the good business, nurtured by hundreds of thousands of dead and maimed people in Ukraine, will not be interrupted, even after the guns stop.
    I've already mentioned what I think of the other half of West, (the EU)- and its incompetent leaders.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  12. #11052

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Let us face this painful question: what is the West and what are its current values? Let's start with the US, whose perspective, following the authoritative voices of the White House and Congress, considers there to be a positive outcome of this war. What is at stake is not, and has never been, Ukraine's victory, but rather using these people as a battering ram to weaken Russia, in accordance with strategic guidelines that have long been public and published. 30 years of keeping NATO close to its borders, especially in Ukraine, would make the Russian bear wake up. But the US was on standby. The sanctions, the attack on the export of Russian oil and natural gas, the impediment/sabotage of oil pipelines, the fomenting of instability in the Caucasus, all of this was already prescribed in a vast document that looks more like a declaration of war: James Dobbins et alia, Extending Russia. Competing from Advantageous Ground, Santa Monica, CA, Rand Corporation , 2019, 354 pp. Here: Extending Russia: Competing from Advantageous Ground
    In this positive balance of the US,in addition to the rupture of ties between Berlin and Moscow, there is also the enlargement of NATO and the conviction that Europe will permanently increase purchases of US weapons (whether Biden or Trump wins), ensuring that the good business, nurtured by hundreds of thousands of dead and maimed people in Ukraine, will not be interrupted, even after the guns stop.
    I've already mentioned what I think of the other half of West, (the EU)- and its incompetent leaders.
    What I continue to not understand is why you have to keep on lying to keep this narrative to keep it alive. NATO presence close to Russian borders, especially in Ukraine, was not the cause of Russian aggression but a result of it. Russian invasion of Ukraine was what brought Scandinavian countries into NATO. Even in Ukraine itself it took the third wave of Russian invasion, after Donbas and Crimea, to bring NATO aid to Ukraine. The idea that Russia invaded Ukraine because of NATO being false is stupidly evident at this point. What is the purpose of this lie that you have been religiously repeating?
    The Armenian Issue

  13. #11053
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Let us face this painful question: what is the West and what are its current values?
    What's our value? We must survive, must maintain and expand domination in military, in culture, in wealth and in technologies. Then we can make some fairy tales to fool our children, making them into believing it's all because we're nice.


    I don't care if they're right or wrong. There is no "enlargement" - we make the rules. Anyone who dare to challenge our power must be punished.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    What is at stake is not, and has never been, Ukraine's victory, but rather using these people as a battering ram to weaken Russia
    That's true. I'm glad we're finally going to join and end his pointless struggle.

  14. #11054
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    What I continue to not understand is why you have to keep on lying to keep this narrative to keep it alive. NATO presence close to Russian borders, especially in Ukraine, was not the cause of Russian aggression but a result of it. Russian invasion of Ukraine was what brought Scandinavian countries into NATO. Even in Ukraine itself it took the third wave of Russian invasion, after Donbas and Crimea, to bring NATO aid to Ukraine. The idea that Russia invaded Ukraine because of NATO being false is stupidly evident at this point. What is the purpose of this lie that you have been religiously repeating?
    I makes US supposed imperialism the cause and frees Russia from any blame or facing the consequences of its actions. The US has agency Russia, poor Russia does not it simply had to respond in the fashion it did.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

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  15. #11055

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    What the apologist don't understand (or refuse to understand, or have been ordered not to understand) is that every single one of Russia's former "republics" that opted to join NATO did so in direct response to Russia grabbing land from its other former "republics" on its border, for example Chechnya 1999, Georgia 2008, Crimea 2014 and now Ukraine 2022. The US isn't some cackling mastermind trying to push NATO up to Russia borders, Russia drove these nations into the alliance through its own actions. That fact won't change no matter how many times the apologists or the literal ex-KGB agent dictator in charge keep trying to pin it on the CIA or some other rouge all powerful US agency.

  16. #11056
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    What the apologist don't understand (or refuse to understand, or have been ordered not to understand) is that every single one of Russia's former "republics" that opted to join NATO did so in direct response to Russia grabbing land from its other former "republics" on its border, for example Chechnya 1999, Georgia 2008, Crimea 2014 and now Ukraine 2022. The US isn't some cackling mastermind trying to push NATO up to Russia borders, Russia drove these nations into the alliance through its own actions. That fact won't change no matter how many times the apologists or the literal ex-KGB agent dictator in charge keep trying to pin it on the CIA or some other rouge all powerful US agency.
    "the apologist" has a username or...?

  17. #11057
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Some incredible coping from the pro-Zelenskyy crowd in this thread 🤣

  18. #11058
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    Some incredible coping from the pro-Zelenskyy crowd in this thread ��
    So how is the deafeted Ukrainian army(how long ago did you claim this again?) going to last? Any day now Russia will be in Kiev right? I guess you are going to claim the ISIS attack in Moscow was Ukraine right? Talk about cope...
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
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  19. #11059

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    Some incredible coping from the pro-Zelenskyy crowd in this thread 藍
    You clearly do not see that its your post itself that is the coping material in this thread.
    The Armenian Issue

  20. #11060

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    What the apologist don't understand (or refuse to understand, or have been ordered not to understand) is that every single one of Russia's former "republics" that opted to join NATO did so in direct response to Russia grabbing land from its other former "republics" on its border, for example Chechnya 1999, Georgia 2008, Crimea 2014 and now Ukraine 2022. The US isn't some cackling mastermind trying to push NATO up to Russia borders, Russia drove these nations into the alliance through its own actions. That fact won't change no matter how many times the apologists or the literal ex-KGB agent dictator in charge keep trying to pin it on the CIA or some other rouge all powerful US agency.
    Chechnya's situation in relation to Russia was fundamentally the same as Abkhazia and South Ossetia's regarding Georgia or Crimea's regarding Ukraine. Although that argument could be applied in either direction so it isn't necessarily helping Russia's case.

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