View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    103 69.59%
  • I support Russia fully.

    15 10.14%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.70%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.43%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.73%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.41%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #6541
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    Nothing woke right. In fact eastern Europe thinks Western wokism = madness.
    And that's exactly how it will remain if Russia prevails. On the otherhand not so much if a US + WEF backed Ukraine prevails.
    You've been gaslit to think this war has anything at all to do with wokism. It does not.
    You see, back in the real world, eastern European countries are the most vehement supporters of Ukraine, have been the most eager to send equipment to Ukraine, the quickest to label fascist Russia a state sponsor of terrorism, and the most ardent in condemning Russia. The literal only exception is Hungary. All other eastern European states are anti-Russia.

    I actually lived in both "dystpian" east and "woke" west. I prefer neither.
    As have I. I prefer the west, hands down.

  2. #6542
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post




    Trying to think of a Laconic comeback.
    You can use that laconic comeback also when reflecting how accurate something is to be presented 500 years after the fact - even by Plutarch
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  3. #6543
    reavertm's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Wow, Stalin, I have no idea how you created link between "woke" and "vaccine mandates", in the West.
    I would rather expect "fascist" link if anything.
    I think you are confused. It's ok, with misinformation war that Russian regime is conducting, we are all confused.

  4. #6544
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    Technically it isn't strictly speaking, if the previously linked blog is accurate.
    That article is from the end of October, since than the repeated missile barrages against the Ukrainian power grid across all of Ukraine have forced millions of Ukrainians to go without light, water or heating for hours or days at a time, just as outdoor temperatures fall below freezing.
    The Kremlins answer to this: Kyiv could “end the suffering” of its population by meeting Russia’s demands to resolve the conflict.
    Their goal by attacking the power grid is to make the civilian population suffer, and thats why this is a war crime.

    -
    Talking about freezing:
    In Rybinsk (north of Moscow) recently the head of the city, Denis Dobryakov, honestly said in a public forum that due to the sanctions, they cannot get the right pumps for the city's district heating system. Pumps which are still in the warehouses are used in Moscow and St. Petersburg, cities such as Rybinsk receive only used or scrap system components, if they are available. These quickly break down and there are no spare parts for them, but even if there were spare parts, the city has no money for them, because inflation is still high, and such equipment has always been expensive.
    In 2022, the city was able to renovate only five kilometers of the pipeline and related equipment out of the 200-kilometer district heating section which needed to be renovated immediately. If all this was not enough, Dobryakov also told a public forum that among those mobilized in the region, they enlisted a lot of plumbing and heating engineers, which is why there is a huge shortage of professionals and therefore they wouldn't be able to solve the heating problems even if they had enough parts and money for the renovation.
    The city manager promised to solve the problems and claimed that he had already asked the Kremlin not to enlist the specialists.

    A few days later, Dobryakov was deposed.

    The Kremlin sent a commission to Rybinsk, naturally on a milder day, which found that the city's heating system was working properly.

    However, it is not only in Rybinsk that there are problems with the 50-60-year-old district heating system due to lack of maintenance and enlisted professionals, according to the news, five people froze to death in their apartments with district heating in the past week.

    Despite Putin's forecast, the weather is not in favor of the Russians for the time being. In Europe, the winter started much milder than usual, while in Russia the temperature is slightly below the usual average these days. It seems that, despite the Russian propaganda trying to make the population believe that people in Europe will soon freeze if they dont stop the sanctions, this problem affects Russia much more strongly than the EU.

  5. #6545
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    Nothing woke right. In fact eastern Europe thinks Western wokism = madness.
    And that's exactly how it will remain if Russia prevails. On the otherhand not so much if a US + WEF backed Ukraine prevails.



    I actually lived in both "dystpian" east and "woke" west. I prefer neither.
    Both systems are capable of destroying one's livelihood - one did it for refusing to join the communist party the other just substituted it w refusing to prescribe to having experimental vaccines (loss of bodily autonomy) etc.
    But end results is still the same (no livelihood).
    With that said the "dytopian" system atleast respected tradition and the nuclear family, the woke movement only leads to degeneration of the family unit and therefore I would argue is more corrosive...
    The woke west and corrupt unelected institutions such as WEF and WHO is also why our economy is in shambles.
    Both systems are terrible but with the fall of Ukraine sh*it like WEF will have that much less power over Eastern Europe atleast, and I am all for that.
    The war in Ukraine is horrible and bad enough, but that is not what got us into inflation this deep and into such a ridiculous energy crisis.
    It's extremely, extremely complex, but the gist is, that the entire financial system messed up (and OPEC countries are taking advantage manipulating oil prices... to their eventual disadvantage). Ask yourself this: how can it be that the gold market is leveraged several times of the actual production of gold? We are in a ginormous economical bubble. No, socialism is not the answer. There is no freaking answer. Our regulating institutions simply cannot put up with the genius mathematical garbage finance comes up these days. We did not really recover from the 2008 crisis, we are living it's consequences right now.

    How does one stop this? It cannot be stopped. Democratic institutions, like the US congress, simply lack the competence to regulate anything properly. We are probably screwed. Nobody intended this. There is no evil masterminding behind this. It's simply that complexity got over all our heads. And we keep bickering and blaming and fighting each others like little rats in nobodies rat lab. We will need AI to regulate finance for us, it appears. But then again: who regulates the freaking AI? Again, we are probably screwed, sorry.
    Last edited by swabian; November 29, 2022 at 05:07 AM.

  6. #6546
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Ask yourself this: how can it be that the gold market is leveraged several times of the actual production of gold?
    Becuse there is demand for it? Not sure what your worry is on this one. There is no 'natural' price of gold.

    We are in a ginormous economical bubble
    How so?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  7. #6547
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Becuse there is demand for it? Not sure what your worry is on this one. There is no 'natural' price of gold.
    The gold price is not really driven by production or demand or use in technology. It's mostly determined by what speculators do, when they cast their financial magic on it in form of futures and options. The demand is mostly created on a speculative basis. Mining matters little. It's maybe not the best example, but I intended to give an example by that on how traded assets can be very volatile and it's this speculation caused volatility that can shake economies really bad.

    How so?
    Simplest example: the ad hoc creation of debt by central banks, causing an imbalance between demand and supply (which is inflation).

    The cause of our inflation (especially energy inflation) is not really Corona or the Ukraine war (although that contributed a bit), it's totally freaky financial products only a hand full of experts really understand. It's basically financial experimentation that is out of line and the lack of proper regulation for it.

    Let me end this here, it doesn't belomng here. My bad.

  8. #6548
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    The gold price is not really driven by production or demand or use in technology. It's mostly determined by what speculators do, when they cast their financial magic on it in form of futures and options. The demand is mostly created on a speculative basis. Mining matters little. It's maybe not the best example, but I intended to give an example by that on how traded assets can be very volatile and it's this speculation caused volatility that can shake economies really bad.



    Simplest example: the ad hoc creation of debt by central banks, causing an imbalance between demand and supply (which is inflation).

    The cause of our inflation (especially energy inflation) is not really Corona or the Ukraine war (although that contributed a bit), it's totally freaky financial products only a hand full of experts really understand. It's basically financial experimentation that is out of line and the lack of proper regulation for it.

    Let me end this here, it doesn't belomng here. My bad.
    Fair enough let me say I am sympathetic to some of you points but also have some strong disagreement/reservations but yes seems to drifting OT. I am working some history posts but if you want toss this out elsewhere I be glad to reply - but probably not too quickly.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  9. #6549
    Stario's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco
    You've been gaslit to think this war has anything at all to do with wokism. It does not.
    It's definitely has something (not everything but something) to do w 'wokism'.
    One can get a sense of it in reading some of Putins speeches where he makes references to "tradition", the nuclear family, and religion (namely the Russian Orthodox church) etc.

    As have I. I prefer the west, hands down.
    I used to prefer west hands down -now not so much.
    I hold the 'woke' west directly responsible for the current economic mess, the rise in gas prices, inflation, and the gender and global warming BS (amongs other things)...
    It's going to be a while most of you kids on this forum can afford the American dream...
    Last edited by Stario; November 29, 2022 at 02:47 PM.

  10. #6550
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    It's definitely has something (not everything but something) to do w 'wokism'.
    One can get a sense of it in reading some of Putins speeches where he makes references to "tradition", the nuclear family, and religion (namely the Russian Orthodox church) etc.
    I'll repeat myself: You are being gaslit into believing this has anything to do with wokism. The one gaslighting you is Putin. Ukraine is not woke, far from it. Zelensky isn't woke.
    Putin is firing in all directions. He claims to be fighting nazis to persuade the left, and claims to be fighting wokism to persuade the right. He's doing neither. He's fighting and murdering innocents.

  11. #6551

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    That article is from the end of October, since than the repeated missile barrages against the Ukrainian power grid across all of Ukraine have forced millions of Ukrainians to go without light, water or heating for hours or days at a time, just as outdoor temperatures fall below freezing.
    The Kremlins answer to this: Kyiv could “end the suffering” of its population by meeting Russia’s demands to resolve the conflict.
    Their goal by attacking the power grid is to make the civilian population suffer, and thats why this is a war crime.
    The fact that an action causes suffering to the civilian population does not a priori make it a war crime though. The Americans hit electrical grids in Yugoslavia and Iraq after all.
    'Dual-use' utilities like electrical or rail infrastructure have rather obvious military as well as civil applications. Furthermore, I don't think that trying to disrupt an enemy's industrial capabilities (which electricity is of course critical to) is considered a war crime either. So trying to declare Russia's current attacks a war crime opens a rather large can of worms.

  12. #6552
    Stario's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Ukraine is not woke, far from it...
    Never said Ukraine was 'woke'. You're clearly failing to understand what I am saying or most likely don't want to...
    So in a nutshell Putin doesn't want woke west encroaching in to Ukraine. What Putin wants is a buffer zone, and at the same time put an end to Ukraine's 'Anti-Terrorist Operation' in the Donbass which has been going on since 2014 ("two flies in one swat" so to speak).
    After all Russia doesn't want w̶a̶r̶ "Anti-Terrorist Operation" (as Zelenskyy called it), in their backyard... nor would any other country tolerate same.


    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    The fact that an action causes suffering to the civilian population does not a priori make it a war crime though. The Americans hit electrical grids in Yugoslavia and Iraq after all.
    'Dual-use' utilities like electrical or rail infrastructure have rather obvious military as well as civil applications. Furthermore, I don't think that trying to disrupt an enemy's industrial capabilities (which electricity is of course critical to) is considered a war crime either. So trying to declare Russia's current attacks a war crime opens a rather large can of worms.
    Ye good luck explaining that to the 'Cult of Zelenskyy' folk, they will accuse you of 'whataboutism' and then think they were clever...😆
    Last edited by Stario; November 29, 2022 at 10:20 PM.

  13. #6553
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    The fact that an action causes suffering to the civilian population does not a priori make it a war crime though. The Americans hit electrical grids in Yugoslavia and Iraq after all.
    'Dual-use' utilities like electrical or rail infrastructure have rather obvious military as well as civil applications. Furthermore, I don't think that trying to disrupt an enemy's industrial capabilities (which electricity is of course critical to) is considered a war crime either. So trying to declare Russia's current attacks a war crime opens a rather large can of worms.
    Open the can, look at the worms I say.

    I support war crimes trials against the US for its illegal war in Iraq. I know its unlikely to happen. I'd like justice for the many war crimes in the former Yugoslavia too instead of what amounted to show trials. Indeed, I'd prefer the Nuremberg trials had been properly conducted so that war criminals from my side were punished too.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  14. #6554
    Stario's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Open the can, look at the worms I say.

    I support war crimes trials against the US for its illegal war in Iraq. I know its unlikely to happen. I'd like justice for the many war crimes in the former Yugoslavia too instead of what amounted to show trials. Indeed, I'd prefer the Nuremberg trials had been properly conducted so that war criminals from my side were punished too.
    Justice is only dished out on the looser. Winners always escape justice some notable examples from hx are Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and W. Bush.

  15. #6555

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Open the can, look at the worms I say.

    I support war crimes trials against the US for its illegal war in Iraq. I know its unlikely to happen. I'd like justice for the many war crimes in the former Yugoslavia too instead of what amounted to show trials. Indeed, I'd prefer the Nuremberg trials had been properly conducted so that war criminals from my side were punished too.
    Alas, Stario's assertion above may be cynical, but it is also fundamentally correct.

  16. #6556
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    Alas, Stario's assertion above may be cynical, but it is also fundamentally correct.
    I have that poster on ignore, as they started to sound like a bot to me.

    If its something like "boo hoo its not fair the US gets to do war crimes, when is it Russia's turn? [stamps jackboot]" its not worth responding to.

    Russian attacks on Ukraine have not mey international standards for civilised behaviour. Claiming a sacred mission for Russia is childish crap. All Russias arguments are childish crap, its a power grab. Power grabs require power which Russia lacks. I dont have sympathy for Russia and its simps.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  17. #6557

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I have that poster on ignore, as they started to sound like a bot to me.

    If its something like "boo hoo its not fair the US gets to do war crimes, when is it Russia's turn? [stamps jackboot]" its not worth responding to.

    Russian attacks on Ukraine have not mey international standards for civilised behaviour. Claiming a sacred mission for Russia is childish crap. All Russias arguments are childish crap, its a power grab. Power grabs require power which Russia lacks. I dont have sympathy for Russia and its simps.
    The statement was that justice is only dished out on the loser. Which to be honest is probably correct.

  18. #6558
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    Never said Ukraine was 'woke'. You're clearly failing to understand what I am saying or most likely don't want to...
    So in a nutshell Putin doesn't want woke west encroaching in to Ukraine.
    And yet the people there want to be part of the west. He has no right to prevent that. If my neighbour wants to buy a TV but I don't want him to buy a TV I don't get to go to his house, murder and dismember him and claim ownership of his house after declaring that his cat voted in favour.
    What Putin wants is a buffer zone
    He wants to annex said "buffer zone".

    and at the same time put an end to Ukraine's 'Anti-Terrorist Operation' in the Donbass which has been going on since 2014 ("two flies in one swat" so to speak).
    After all Russia doesn't want w̶a̶r̶ "Anti-Terrorist Operation" (as Zelenskyy called it), in their backyard... nor would any other country tolerate same.
    Yes, Russia is this big supporter of self determination, only trying to help enforce the people's will and desire for freedom. Remind me, how did Russia respond to Chechnya declaring independence?

  19. #6559
    Stario's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    And yet the people there want to be part of the west. He has no right to prevent that.
    You see this is where it gets complicated. One can argue the DPR/LPR don't want to be part of the woke west.
    And so Zelenskyy declared them "terrorists" and commenced shelling them in his "Anti-Terrorist Operation" of 2014-22. Likewise Zelenskyy denied it as being a war but rather referred to it as an "Operation".
    Sometimes I think Putin is taking the mickey out of that comedian Zelenskyy when he called his own "Special Operation"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I have that poster on ignore, as they started to sound like a bot to me.
    The woke left is big on the 'cancel culture'. One knows one won the argument when the woke left resort to cancelling/muting/fact-checking one... 🤣
    Last edited by Stario; November 30, 2022 at 04:06 AM.

  20. #6560

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    You see this is where it gets complicated. One can argue the DPR/LPR don't want to be part of the woke west.
    And so Zelenskyy declared them "terrorists" and commenced shelling them in his "Anti-Terrorist Operation" of 2014-22. Likewise Zelenskyy denied it as being a war but rather referred to it as an "Operation".
    Sometimes I think Putin is taking the mickey out of that comedian Zelenskyy when he called his own "Special Operation"...
    You're completely ignoring the fact that, by the admission of the participants, especially Girkin, the Donbas separatism was fostered and organized by FSB. It was them (Girkin said in interview that he led the first unit that attacked Sloviansk) that initiated the armed hostilities and many of the LPR/DPR leaders were Russian nationals and FSB agents.

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