View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

Voters
148. You may not vote on this poll
  • I support Ukraine fully.

    103 69.59%
  • I support Russia fully.

    15 10.14%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.70%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.43%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.73%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.41%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #6461
    AqD's Avatar 。◕‿◕。
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    So we agree, Russia's invasion of Ukraine is part of a pattern of military adventurism by Putin, rather than a specific instance addressing specific conditions that will end if they are resolved.
    It's not adventurism, not to him or his supporters. And he's hardly the only one who holds that view that Russia should expand to former USSR status.

    What it really means is that we were bloody idiots believing they could evolve peacefully. If NATO didn't expand, Baltic countries would be his now.

  2. #6462

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Turkey supplied laser-guided missiles to Ukraine
    Turkey delivered dozens of TRLG-230 precision-guided missiles to Ukraine in the early summer, two sources familiar with the issue told Middle East Eye.
    Developed by Turkish producer Roketsan, the 230mm TRLG-230 missile has high accuracy against targets within a range of 20-70 km, thanks to its global positioning system (GPS) and laser guidance.
    The TRLG-230 can be combined with multiple rocket launchers, known as MLRS, whose American equivalent, the High Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS), has been very effective against the Russian forces in Ukraine.
    MEE understands that around 50 TRLG-230 missiles have been shipped to Ukraine, confirming what defence blog Oryx reported on Monday. One source said as many as 200 missiles could have been shipped so far.
    Should be fairly cheaper for Ukrainians to use now that the frontlines are situated on either banks of the Dnieper river.
    The Armenian Issue

  3. #6463

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    I still find these reminders like the one Coughdrop addict wrote useful, because it is clear that Russia and its supporters are constantly trying to spin this as something in which the west or Ukraine are somehow at fault and held responsible for this and that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    That is rather too qualified a condition, to take some tangent of the conflict, as the entire conflict (= Ukraine didn't invade Russia, so Ukraine has nothing to do with Russia invading Ukraine). This type of tangent-to-function view leads to all sorts of fun stuff, to mention a flamboyant one: Japan didn't nuke US, so if Japan nukes US in the future it's solely due to US in the past.

    => it's always a problem to treat tangents as the entire thing
    As soon as I made that point, someone comes in to prove the point with an entirely irrelevant and wildly imaginary analogy. As if desperately clutching at something that could incriminate Ukraine.

    How about just letting go of the Russian narrative and accepting that Russia is destroying the civilian infrastructure of an Orthodox Christian country that was posing no threat to them? You can still join the side of history that future generations are going to judge as decent and good.

    Russia doesn't care about Greece, and they are unlikely to do any good for your people out of good will.

  4. #6464
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Russia isn't a person. I am not the country I was born in either - or any other one. I was hoping that such should go without saying; discussion loses any meaning if instead of (if one wishes to bother; it's voluntary) reflecting on any arguments, you go for trying to infer insidious undercurrents.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  5. #6465

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    Since Putin's serfdom has now been declared a terrorist state, can we arrest all pro-Kremlin protestors and members of pro-Kremlin parties such as LRU as terrorists?
    Isnt that funny in some cases even EU Parliament has delegates which are pro-Kremlin still today and they are not from countries which are located east. The Major contributors of that Union of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    Also the soldiers. After all, terrorists in terrorism attacks are not accorded the privileges of enemy soldiers. They cant be POWs and there are no rights whatsoever.
    Well they are Soldiers and both sides signed the Geneva Conventions. After the War is over you can judge over them in a Military Court. Did they even using terrorism or some kind of terror attacks? There is a Warzone and they probably commit cruel crimes against humanity which people call in the West "Warcrimes" and later judge over them.

  6. #6466
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Russia isn't a person. I am not the country I was born in either - or any other one. I was hoping that such should go without saying; discussion loses any meaning if instead of (if one wishes to bother; it's voluntary) reflecting on any arguments, you go for trying to infer insidious undercurrents.
    Bit of a tangent, mate. The axiom here is Russia is an existential threat to its neighbours. There's four centuries of proofs to back that one up.

    I feel there's a lot of goodwill toward Russia in Hellas for historic reasons. It's a good thing, goodwill between cultures and states. I think it can be fostered and can overcome historic prejudice. We could have a Turko-Hellenic family if we tried, imagine the power levels. Turkish stubbornness, combined with Hellenic stubbornness, both like lamb and yoghurt...
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  7. #6467
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Bit of a tangent, mate. The axiom here is Russia is an existential threat to its neighbours. There's four centuries of proofs to back that one up.

    I feel there's a lot of goodwill toward Russia in Hellas for historic reasons. It's a good thing, goodwill between cultures and states. I think it can be fostered and can overcome historic prejudice. We could have a Turko-Hellenic family if we tried, imagine the power levels. Turkish stubbornness, combined with Hellenic stubbornness, both like lamb and yoghurt...
    That sounds really horrible and I want no part of it
    It's rather miserable to be focused on the country you are from, regardless of what country it is - but that's another "imo".

    Now the Byzantine Empire, is a symbol of coolness, Leo the mathematician and his singing mechanical birds etc ^^
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  8. #6468

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    https://www.newsweek.com/russia-gun-...border-1761774

    Armed crime is up more than 600 percent in a Russian region bordering Ukraine, according to data from the country's Ministry of Internal Affairs.
    In the Kursk region, located near to Russia's border with Ukraine, the number of crimes committed using firearms, ammunition, and explosive devices over the first ten months of this year increased by 675 percent, compared to the same time frame in 2021, statistics show.
    Crimes involving the weapons also rose sharply in the Belgorod region and in Moscow, with a rise of 213 percent and 203 percent respectively.
    Other areas which saw an increase in crime of at least 100 percent (using firearms, ammunition, and explosive devices) included the Pskov region, Saint Petersburg, Kalingrad region, Nenets Autonomous Okrug, Saratov region, and Tambov region.
    "Thoughts and prayers."

  9. #6469

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    How Greek Companies and Ghost Ships Are Helping Russia
    The United States banned Russian crude oil imports months ago, and Russian ships are banned from U.S., British, and EU ports. On Dec. 5, the European Union’s sanctions on Russian crude come into effect. But Greek and other European shipping companies are currently—and legally—helping Russian exporters get their oil to the desired destination.

    What’s more, a growing ghost fleet of ships that officially don’t exist and cannot, as a result, be traced or investigated is transporting sanctioned Russian goods around the world, just as it was already transporting banned Iranian, Venezuelan, and North Korean commodities. The ghost fleet is likely to grow as the EU’s oil sanctions kick in. That seriously undermines the sanctions—and creates risks on the high seas.

    In May, Lloyd’s List Intelligence, which monitors global shipping, began noticing an odd pattern at the Russian ports of Ust-Luga, Primorsk, Novorossiysk, and St. Petersburg. Of the 204 large tankers departing the ports between the 1st and the 26th of that month, 58 belonged to Sovcomflot, the Russian shipping giant. But many more of the oil tankers—79—were Greek owned. “A vast increase in voyages to India, Turkey and China indicate where the cargo, normally bound for North America and Western Europe, is now going,” Lloyd’s noted in a subsequent report.

    Seems like the clock is ticking till 5th of December at which point they will not be able to do it legally.
    The Armenian Issue

  10. #6470
    Beorn's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    ^This has been well documented since the beginning of the russian invasion. Profiteers are not exactly well-known for their morals, and you won't encounter the word "morality" in the greek shipping magnate slang if there's any profit to be made...

  11. #6471
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Satellite images of Ukraine at night:



    from Nasa: https://img.asmedia.epimg.net/resize...IJKMQ7IIV4.jpg
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  12. #6472
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Olena Zelenska said in an interview with BBC that according to a recent poll 90% of Ukrainians said they were ready to live with electricity shortages for years if they could see the prospect of joining the European Union.

    btw according to the Geneva Conventions, those targets whose destruction hinders the enemy's forces at the cost of disproportionately large suffering of the civilian population are not considered legitimate. Like targeting the power grid, for example. Not to mention, the Russians have openly said that the missiles are coming because they want to force the population to demand surrender from their political leadership. War crime.

    Winter isnt even here yet. (+18)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  13. #6473

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Ukrainians are certainly much better equipped for the winter compared to the Russian conscripts. The cold weather might cause high mortality among the Russian soldiers.
    The Armenian Issue

  14. #6474
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Incidentally, and just out of curiosity, a senior Ukrainian leader said a few days ago that winter will not prevent the conquest of Crimea, that only those who don't know that there are tourists sunbathing in January in Crimea say otherwise.
    ----

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Unfortunately no. I wish that it would, but I doubt it would happen, especially under Netanyahu. He's way too cowardly to take a stance on anything.
    Under Netanyahu or under anyone else, namely the previous government. Israel until today has always refused to supply weapons to Ukraine, why would it make that statement make it now?
    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Are you trying to justify the destruction of civilian infrastructure with the intent of causing millions of civilians to freeze to death or flee to a different country? Wow. You've fallen far.
    Once again, read (before commenting), the exhaustive western legal analysis Is attacking the electricity infrastructure used by civilians..?
    The answer is here, and is not linear. It takes some time to read, but it is instructive and enlightening. I said, as they say, gather the facts, examine the law, evaluate the arguments – and then decide for yourself

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    I'd like to test your historical knowledge for a second here: Can you think of any other instance within the last century when a fascist/nazi state attempted to get Hungary on their side by promising them territory from neighbouring state? The same exact piece of land, in fact. Any such case spring to mind?
    I think it's a bit arrogant of you to say that you want to test my knowledge of history. For my part, I am not here to test your knowledge on any subject. That said, what history explains, and this is what I critically recalled, is that all of Ukraine's neighboring states (Russia, Hungary, Romania, and Poland), have always aspired to have a slice of its current territory, which has varied greatly during the course of modern history. In the case of all these countries, this attitude of greed will depend on the governments that may or may not have at a given moment. You seem to have had difficulty understanding what I wrote, it would be easier for you to understand if you had read the NYTimes article referred to in my previous post.
    ------
    The EU's declaration of Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism not only has no legal effect but is very negative in that it blocks any future peace negotiations and puts Russia up against the wall.
    Who is the EU leader who in the future will even consider a negotiated solution with a state he considers to be a sponsor of terrorism?
    For some reason, the US did not make this statement. Such statements, once made, are very difficult to take back later. For example, the US declared Cuba a state sponsor of terrorism on January 11, 2021, 5 days before the invasion of the Capitol, and nine days before Trump left the White House. One year later, nothing has changed.
    ----
    The EU has announced the ninth package of sanctions. The practical effects, other than uniting the EU in a common goal of supporting Ukraine, are almost none, but the backlash is huge.
    The IMF had forecast inflation in Russia of 9% next year and has now adjusted its forecast to 3%.
    The UK will be in recession until the summer of 2023, and inflation its 41-year high of 11,1%, as food and energy prices continue to soar. As of October 2022, the inflation rate in the European Union was 11.5%
    The European Union recorded a record deficit of 42.3 billion euros in trade in goods with the rest of the world in July, according to Eurostat. A figure that compares with the surplus of 15.6 billion euros that had been achieved in the same month last year. Right now, there are some EU countries that have a higher volume of trade with Russia than last year.
    When will we reach the 30th sanctions package?
    Last edited by Ludicus; November 25, 2022 at 01:02 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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  15. #6475

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Incidentally, and just out of curiosity, a senior Ukrainian leader said a few days ago that winter will not prevent the conquest of Crimea, that only those who don't know that there are tourists sunbathing in January in Crimea say otherwise.
    No need. Zaporizhzhia will be around freezing temperature till March 2023 with room for all the way down to -20s. That will allow Ukrainians to pierce through to Mariupol and cut off Russians from Crimea largely. What will the Russians do? Let their under-equipped soldiers freeze over or let Ukrainians take over their own land in a yet another massive retreat?
    The Armenian Issue

  16. #6476
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Once again, read (before commenting), the exhaustive western legal analysis Is attacking the electricity infrastructure used by civilians..?
    The answer is here, and is not linear. It takes some time to read, but it is instructive and enlightening. I said, as they say, gather the facts, examine the law, evaluate the arguments – and then decide for yourself
    It's pretty simple. The goal of destroying the energy infastructure of Ukraine is to terrorize the population, by causing as much suffering as possible, in the hope that it would cause them to pressure their government to surrender, or alternatively become refugees in the hopes that European governments would buckle under the pressure of a growing number of refugees and would then cut their support for Ukraine. Russia is open about these goals. This is terrorism. Plain and simple.
    Russia is a terrorist state.


    I think it's a bit arrogant of you to say that you want to test my knowledge of history. For my part, I am not here to test your knowledge on any subject. That said, what history explains, and this is what I critically recalled, is that all of Ukraine's neighboring states (Russia, Hungary, Romania, and Poland), have always aspired to have a slice of its current territory, which has varied greatly during the course of modern history. In the case of all these countries, this attitude of greed will depend on the governments that may or may not have at a given moment. You seem to have had difficulty understanding what I wrote, it would be easier for you to understand if you had read the NYTimes article referred to in my previous post.
    Most of any European state's neighbours aspired to gain parts of their territory at some point or another. Be it France, Germany, Romania, etc. And Russia aspires or aspired for territory from literally every state it borders. In turn, most states bordering Russia have some claim to its territory. That's just life.
    The EU's declaration of Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism not only has no legal effect but is very negative in that it blocks any future peace negotiations and puts Russia up against the wall.
    Who is the EU leader who in the future will even consider a negotiated solution with a state he considers to be a sponsor of terrorism?
    For some reason, the US did not make this statement. Such statements, once made, are very difficult to take back later. For example, the US declared Cuba a state sponsor of terrorism on January 11, 2021, 5 days before the invasion of the Capitol, and nine days before Trump left the White House. One year later, nothing has changed.
    The Trump admin also ended the designation of a state as a sponsor of terrorism: Sudan.
    As for the US not designating Russia as a sponsor of terrorism, unlike the EU the US's declaration wouldn't be toothless, and would punish not only Russia but also every state that trades with Russia, namely the EU. Once the EU is sufficiently independent that it no longer has to rely on Russia for its energy needs I imagine the US will take this step. The US senate already voted in favour, because Fascist Russia is a terrorist state.

  17. #6477
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I know its trite to cite board games in this context but...historically winter operations are possible on the steppes in winter for a well supplied arny, as demstrated in various simulations. Unlike western and southern Europe movement isnt so severely interdicted and once the rasputitza freezes (and when it dries out in late spring for summer ops) you can get things done. Poorly supplied armies famously fall apart in the freeze: the Grande Armee didn't evaporate as is popularly imagined but they did eat their horses (an irreplaceable loss) and with the break down of supply came a fatal loss if cohesion: most if that army lost combat effectiveness and while the Guard remained the best if the best the line infantry were never the same really.

    Napoleon Putin started with a worse army and lost his Borodino. His mechanised cavalry is wrecked and his army is still "beyond the Berezina". Does he have a Michel Ney to bravely bring them home alive? I think a lot of Russian cobscripts will die this winter, this is a disaster for Russia of monumental proportions.

    If he keeps murdering civilians we have to get them better cover, the best that can be spared from Taiwan.

    From memory there was a campaign in the 18th century (Rumyantsev? Suvorov?) where the Russians nipped out over the ice to raid Crimea. Maybe I've conflated that with the Northern War cavalry capturing Swedish ships on the frozen Gulf of Bothnia?
    Last edited by Cyclops; November 25, 2022 at 05:01 PM.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  18. #6478
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I missed this,
    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Basically you're claiming that the separatist Ukrainians and Russian soldiers in Donbas did not kill a single civilian in over 8 years...
    Asking if separatist Ukrainians and Russian soldiers in Donbas did not kill a single civilian in over 8 years makes no sense. This kind of fallacious question is completely absurd, as far as what happened, and why it happened. At that time, the new US backed regime did not find legitimacy in Donbas and they were illegitimate in the eyes of Donbas people because they adopted brute force approach to overthrow Yanukovych’s regime.
    The US backed Revolution provoked the destabilization of Donbas. At that time, other very important factors contributed to this destabilization,
    1) Kiev’s decision to integrate nationalist groups in fighting.
    2) Kiev alllowed the Ukrainian regular army to use unlimited force in areas where people densely located. In fact, according to the Amnesty International, most of the civilian deaths were in separatist-held territory in Donetsk, and were caused by Ukrainian government forces.
    The Russia-centric explanation is myopic. The origin of separatist tendency of Donbas region should be sought in historical developments of Ukraine, in the political and cultural dichotomy between the West and the East of Ukraine
    ---
    Charap and Shapiro emphasize that the USA should adopt more constructive policy towards Russia. How to Avoid a New Cold War - Brookings Institution (2014)

    the alternative is a confrontation with Russia that the West does not want, in order to uphold principles that it will ultimately be unwilling to defend
    And now ( July 2022) they are saying, The US and Russia Need to Start Talking Before It's Too Late NYTimes

    We are witnessing a classic spiral in which both sides feel compelled to do more as soon as the other side begins to make some progress. The best way to prevent that dynamic from getting out of control is to start talking before it’s too late.
    In this interview, political scientist Serhi Kudelia expresses his concern about "Zelensky's authoritarian tendencies", "...und zeigt sich über dessen autoritäre Tendenzen besorgt",
    “The Longer the War Lasts, the Greater is the Threat to Ukraine’s Democracy,” Interview with Neue Zürcher Zeitung (in German), May 11, 2022.


    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The hypocrisy is not dependent whether Israel is at war with Gaza or not.
    It makes no sense to compare the sporadic, occasional bombing of Gaza (a quasi-colony of Israel), designed to liquidate insurgents, with the bombing that occurs in conventional wars, which is the case here, just as was the case with Allied bombing in World War II, which was devastating and incomparably more lethal to civilian populations. In doubt, just ask Harris.
    If there is any comparison to be made, it is this one.
    And let’s keep in mind that Yugoslavia was bombed back to the stone age. In Serbia, caused more than 1 million refugees. Enjoy, lovers of double standards, because it matters, The ICTY Prosecutor and the Review of the NATO Bombing

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    What NATO did over 20 years ago doesn't determine what's a civilian target and what's not.
    What is a civilian target is no a linear question, the answer is not straightforward, read attentively the link provided in my last posts.It's about the Ukrainian war.

    ---
    I am going to make a comment that that many of you may not appreciate. Let's assume that Russia was not a nuclear power. Let's suppose it was invaded by the US. The first thing the US would do would be to destroy Russia's entire power grid, just as NATO did in Serbia. Next, to avoid excessive losses of their troops, they would use the nuclear power in the same way they did in Japan, to force a quick surrender.

    I remind you again that there is nothing scandalous about what I say: I’ve already mentioned here a 2017 EU opinion poll in which the American population considers the loss of millions of lives in a nuclear attack perfectly justified if the goal is to win the war. I quote, “A majority of Americans prioritize protecting U.S. troops and achieving American war aims, even when doing so would result in the use of nuclear weapons and the deaths of millions of civilians in another country”. Americans weigh in on nuclear war | Stanford News
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  19. #6479
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    I am going to make a comment that that many of you may not appreciate. Let's assume that Russia was not a nuclear power. Let's suppose it was invaded by the US. The first thing the US would do would be to destroy Russia's entire power grid, just as NATO did in Serbia. Next, to avoid excessive losses of their troops, they would use the nuclear power in the same way they did in Japan, to force a quick surrender.
    I dare say in this alternative timeline there might well be a Ludicus arguing that the only logical response by the Russians would be immediate and unconditional surrender while blaming the Chinese for prolonging the war by supporting Russia with weapons.
    Last edited by Muizer; November 25, 2022 at 05:29 PM.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  20. #6480
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    I dare say in this alternative timeline there might well be a Ludicus arguing that the only logical response by the Russians would be immediate and unconditional surrender while blaming the Chinese for prolonging the war by supporting Russia with weapons.
    .. while Hideo Yamato, Daimyo of Japanese colonised but independent Australia, looked on with suppressed glee muttering in Mongolian (oh yeah, no Kami Kaze so Japan has Altaic culture) " let them fight!"
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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