View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    104 69.33%
  • I support Russia fully.

    16 10.67%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.67%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.33%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.67%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.33%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #9021
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Nord Stream revelations should chasten Ukraine dam 'hot takes'

    This week’s bombshell news that the CIA knew of Ukraine’s plans to sabotage the Nord Stream pipeline three months before it blew up hasn’t given pause to some Western political leaders and commentators who are already suggesting that Russia might be behind the Kakhovka Dam explosion in Ukraine on Tuesday.
    NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg blamed Russia without blaming Russia Wednesday, saying “this is an outrageous act, which demonstrates — once again — the brutality of Russia’s war against Ukraine.”
    Also on Tuesday, NBC News reported that “two U.S. officials and one Western official” told the news outlet that “the U.S. has intelligence that is leaning toward Russia as the perpetrator of the attack. U.S. officials were working to declassify some of the intelligence and share it as early as Tuesday afternoon.” Two days later, nothing more has been revealed as the White House continues to maintain that it is looking into Ukraine’s allegations that Russia sabotaged the dam, but doesn’t have any conclusive evidence to say so either way.
    Meanwhile on Twitter, Yale professor Timothy Snyder unleashed a 10-tweet thread to his over 500k followers warning against repeating Russia’s claims, and “the temptation to bothsides a calamity. That’s not journalism.”
    One would think that a bit of chastening is in order. After news that the Nord Stream pipeline had been attacked on Sept. 26, 2022, Western leaders — including former U.S.officials and the Washington Post editorial board — laid the blame at the Russians feet, with the rest of the commentariat taking their cues. Those offering other explanations were called Putin apologists and fools.
    Over the course of the year, as the Europeans began investigating, officials quietly acknowledged that Russia was likely not behind the attack. Identifying the true culprit remained elusive.
    After journalist Sy Hersh reported in detail in February that it was a secret team of special U.S. Navy divers, under orders of the Biden administration, that plotted and carried out the sabotage, he was, too, excoriated and called a crank and a Putin apologist. Still, no official explanation was forthcoming.
    Then, unnamed government officials told the New York Times that a rogue group of anti-Russian Ukrainians had rented a boat and carried out the attack themselves, a theory that European leaders have distanced themselves from, and overall, has gotten little traction.
    Fast forward to today. That the CIA might have known about a real plot by Ukrainians to blow up the pipelines that looks a lot like the Sy Hersh reported plan (only with Ukrainian divers and a rented boat) should send heads spinning and spines tingling. If the U.S. government knew of the plan, why did Washington put the dogs on the scent of the Russians after the pipeline was actually destroyed?
    We may not know, ever, but this is all the reason why we should be more circumspect as the dam explosion story unfolds. Ukrainian officials are all but accusing the Russians of blowing up the dam, pointing to the fact that the Russians had been occupying it at the time.
    The Institute for the Study of War, which has been consistently quoted by all the major U.S. newspapers on this and other stories throughout the year-long war, acknowledge they do not have enough evidence to say who blew up the dam, but turn to their own prior assessments: “Russians have a greater and clearer interest in flooding the lower Dnipro despite the damage to their own prepared defensive positions and forces than the Ukrainians.”
    Many media outlets quoted this analysis liberally on Thursday.
    As of Wednesday, NBC news was still leading with Ukraine’s charges against Russia and quoting a series of “military analysts” saying that Russia would benefit more from the dam breach because it would severely hobble Ukraine’s military advances.
    Only toward the end of this report did NBC acknowledge that “analysts did agree that the entrenched defenses Russia had built up for months would be hit, but didn’t see a clear motive for Ukraine.”
    The lack of information, which has been a constant throughout this war, should temper the impulse to let emotional or political considerations lead us to conclusions. But that seems to be what is happening again, even though we know, from the Nord Stream sabotage example, that all may not be what it seems right now, and taking a step back from the hot takes might be what’s best for the situation. That is not “Putin apologia” but good sense.
    We don't have a clear answer. But whoever did it is prepared to do anything. I think that at this point it is crucial for the US to discourage the Polish government from putting boots on the ground. If Poland goes to war, it won't be able to rely on Article 5 of the UN Charter. If this happens, only by a miracle will Russia not launch a tactical nuclear bomb on Polish territory. What will happen then?
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  2. #9022

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    That's comparing apples and oranges. The Ukrainians had a logical motive to sabotage the Nordstream pipeline (diminishing Russia's war chest) and they have organized similar acts of sabotage in Russia since, so it is plausible that they were responsible. However, there isn't any reason for the Ukrainians to make the area around Kherson impassable ahead of their own offensive (if there was a realistic prospect of a large-scale Russian offensive across the river it would be a different matter).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    We don't have a clear answer. But whoever did it is prepared to do anything. I think that at this point it is crucial for the US to discourage the Polish government from putting boots on the ground. If Poland goes to war, it won't be able to rely on Article 5 of the UN Charter. If this happens, only by a miracle will Russia not launch a tactical nuclear bomb on Polish territory. What will happen then?
    I think you mean NATO's charter, not the UN's. And I don't think that immediately follows; the US would not be obligated to protect Polish forces on Ukrainian territory, but they would still be obligated to protect Polish territory. So a strike on Ukrainian territory would be far more likely than Polish.

  3. #9023
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Pretty sure Russia blew the dam. Honestly can't see the point of waffling about how it could have been "something, or someone, else". Whether the triggering was an accident or deliberate, charges were placed and blown. Russia is the only possible candidate for placing charges.

    Or are we saying HIMARS can blow a substantial piece of infrastructure now? That would be doublethink of an epic scale, akin to denying there's a war or stating there were WMDs in Iraq.

    As for "inevitable Russian nukes" that tune is such a classic, play it again.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  4. #9024
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    That's comparing apples and oranges. The Ukrainians had a logical motive to sabotage the Nordstream pipeline (diminishing Russia's war chest) and they have organized similar acts of sabotage in Russia since, so it is plausible that they were responsible. However, there isn't any reason for the Ukrainians to make the area around Kherson impassable ahead of their own offensive (if there was a realistic prospect of a large-scale Russian offensive across the river it would be a different matter).
    The Russian side has provided a number of plausible reasons why Ukraine could have done it. This, rather surprisingly by this war's coverage standards, moderate article from rt details those: https://www.rt.com/russia/577689-mil...ntal-disaster/
    The article's conclusion is particularly noteworthy and seems to align with my suggested conclusion earlier that it may not have been intentional, if neither side truly benefits:
    In military terms, this is a great loss for Russia as many of the defensive positions, including the first line of defense, were flooded and the Russian army will have to hastily restore them after the situation returns to normal.

    Who is to blame?
    There’s currently no logical argument that the destruction of the Kakhovka HPP was directly beneficial for either side. The actions of the militaries on the Dnieper Delta islands and officials in coastal settlements indicate that the events took both Ukraine and Russia by surprise. These factors, along with the lack of any video footage depicting the explosions alleged to have destroyed the hydroelectric power plant on June 6, indirectly confirm the version that the disaster was the long-term consequence of Ukraine’s HIMARS strikes on the dam. This is supported by satellite images taken from May 31 to June 4, showing part of the dam having been damaged by water pressure.


    The only mystery remains as to why the Ukrainians raised the water level in the Kakhovka reservoir to a record high, thereby increasing pressure on the HPP, while maintenance personnel couldn't do their jobs properly due to strikes from Kiev's forces. One of the versions is that the entire Dnieper reservoir cascade has become worn out and the Ukrainians were attempting to save their hydroelectric power plants, since their destruction could lead to serious consequences for Kiev.


    Meanwhile, further destruction of the Kakhovka HPP is probable due to increasing water pressure and regular shelling which prevents access for repair crews. If this activity continues, the consequences are likely to become even more serious.
    Of course, the more cynical among us may question the Russian side's evenhandedness here. Why would Russia be willing to accept the accident, even if still mostly Ukraine's fault, hypothesis, however plausible it may be, instead of doubling down on the "Ukraine did it on purpose" angle? Could it be they are ok with either of those outcomes, as long as it deflects blame off them? It is sth that makes me wonder also considering neither side has been "exactly" truthful. But of course, most of those here in the west that would be cynical like this on Russia's claims, are prepared to swallow the Ukrainian angle hook, line and sinker. So... there is that too.

  5. #9025
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    ...indirectly confirm the version that the disaster was the long-term consequence of Ukraine’s HIMARS strikes on the dam.
    Seismic signals recorded from an explosion at the Kakhovka Dam in Ukraine

    Data from regional seismic stations show clear signals on Tuesday 6 June at 2:54 local time (01:54 Norwegian time). Time and location (coordinates: 46.7776, 33.37) coincide with reports in the media about the collapse of the Kakhovka dam. The signals indicate that there was an explosion.

    The magnitude estimate is between 1 and 2.
    There is no Ukrainian artillery system that could trigger such a seismic deviation, that is, explode to such an extent that Norwegian seismologists would be able to register it.

    The sudden seismic spike also rules out the theory that the dam would have collapsed gradually on its own.

    The only option left is that the Russians who controlled the dam blew up the facility. The one remaining question is whether their original goal was to destroy the entire dam, or whether they just wanted to cause a small flood, and it went wrong... but in terms of the end result (and responsibility), it doesn't really matter.

    The Russian army is responsible for this disaster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    The only mystery remains as to why the Ukrainians raised the water level in the Kakhovka reservoir to a record high,
    lol

  6. #9026
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Maybe Poland is eyeing (eventually) Kalinigrad, but the price will be too high.
    Only positive is that I don't see any way our country will be involved in so massive a war.

    If nato-countries start sending their own soldiers (they would not, if Ukraine had any chance of winning on its own), this will obviously become a ww. Scariest thing is that some people want it to happen.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  7. #9027

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    The only option left is that the Russians who controlled the dam blew up the facility. The one remaining question is whether their original goal was to destroy the entire dam, or whether they just wanted to cause a small flood, and it went wrong... but in terms of the end result (and responsibility), it doesn't really matter.
    Or the Wagner/MoD infighting is involved.

  8. #9028
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    The only option left is that the Russians who controlled the dam blew up the facility. The one remaining question is whether their original goal was to destroy the entire dam, or whether they just wanted to cause a small flood, and it went wrong... but in terms of the end result (and responsibility), it doesn't really matter.
    You are, yet again, jumping to conclusions:
    https://www.npr.org/2023/06/08/11810...-ukrainian-dam
    There is a number of assumptions by the seismologist (Oye) that need to be true for your turn of events to be the case. But his data is not as accurate as you are implying.
    There is still uncertainty. The seismic arrays can't locate the blast to closer than within 20-30 kilometers (12-19 miles) of the dam. But Oye says explosions in this particular part of Ukraine are rarely seen, and so a blast due to something else would be an unusual coincidence.

    Nor can the the detection say what caused an explosion. Russians accuse Ukraine of attacking the dam, but Ukrainians claim Russians used demolition charges to destroy it.
    Last edited by Alastor; June 09, 2023 at 06:13 AM.

  9. #9029

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    You are, yet again, jumping to conclusions:
    https://www.npr.org/2023/06/08/11810...-ukrainian-dam
    There is a number of assumptions by the seismologist (Oye) that need to be true for your turn of events to be the case. But his data is not as accurate as you are implying.
    There are two teeny weeny things...

    First, such big blast wouldn't go unnoticed, even in this war. But nothing else is reported as exploding in the area at that time.

    Second, Ukraine doesn't have any standoff weapon with such power, and Russia was in control of the location where it went off.

  10. #9030
    StarDreamer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    You are, yet again, jumping to conclusions:
    https://www.npr.org/2023/06/08/11810...-ukrainian-dam
    There is a number of assumptions by the seismologist (Oye) that need to be true for your turn of events to be the case. But his data is not as accurate as you are implying.
    It just happened that the seismic activity happened when the dam blew, must have been something else surely... What a coincindence.

    Such an explosion would only have been possible with explosives placed on site. The dam was controlled by Russia, hence the likelyhood someone else got inside to plant that amount is highly unlikely.

    For a "neutral" opinion you sure like parroting Russian lies and swallow wholeheartedly demostrably false information from RT. Like the Ukrainians controlling the amount of water in the reservoir considering Russia was in control of the dams operation.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
    https://www.politicalcompass.org/ana...2.38&soc=-3.44 <-- "Dangerous far right bigot!" -SJWs

  11. #9031
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    For a "neutral" opinion you sure like parroting Russian lies and swallow wholeheartedly demostrably false information from RT. Like the Ukrainians controlling the amount of water in the reservoir considering Russia was in control of the dams operation.
    I didn't realize that NPR, whose "lies" I "parroted" is a Russian source. I guess you learn sth new every day.

    That's one thing. Now as far as RT goes, you will notice I casted doubt on their interpretation. Or at least you would notice that if you were in the slightest bit interested in a good faith debate. You would also notice there was subtle mockery of the fact that even while trying to push the accident angle they still blame Ukraine.

    Finally, as far as the water levels go, had you bothered to read the article, you would see they are talking about the flow coming from dams further up the river that Ukraine does still control. In fact, the article even gave a plausible explanation that those stations were also under pressure due to lack of maintenance and Ukraine did not want to risk them, so they increased the flow of water allowed to pass through.

    Now is that true? I don't know. But neither do you. The difference is, I want to know if it's true while you pretend you already do.
    Last edited by Alastor; June 09, 2023 at 07:29 AM.

  12. #9032

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    https://www.newsweek.com/russia-smok...llapse-1805546

    A Russian law passed days before the destruction of the Nova Kakhovka dam in southern Ukraine could be a "smoking gun" in proving Russia's involvement in the incident, according to an expert.
    On May 30, a week before the dam's collapse, the Russian government approved a law aimed at "ensuring the safety of hydraulic structures" in the Ukrainian regions it proclaimed to have annexed in September 2022—the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, in Kherson, and Zaporizhzhia.
    The legislation states that until January 1, 2028, investigations into accidents at hydro-technical structures that occurred as a result of military operations, sabotage and terrorist activities are prohibited. The decree was signed by Russian Prime Minister Mikhail Mishustin and came into effect on the day it was published.
    I'm sure it's just a coincidence/The evil United States forced Putin to do it/Why are you all picking on poor victimized Putin?

    In addition, SBU has allegedly intercepted communication between Orcs directly referring their sabotage groups intentions to blow the dam. Only a matter of time before Pentagon and British MoD make their public determinations.

  13. #9033
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Isn't this issue already pushed over, with many "western" media promoting the idea this was "an accident"? (bbc among them).
    Russians will have to restore their defensive lines, after the water has been cleared, and it looks like the "spring offensive" is going on in Zaporizhzhia anyway.

    The talk of nato countries sending armies, should sent the clear message Ukraine is unable to win with its own soldiers. But what else is new. Problem is that foreign armies joining it, will be a major escalation and the critical step towards ww (and ww itself, as long as Ukraine neither wants to negotiate, nor can be left to lose, is by now very visible on the horizon).
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  14. #9034
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    and it looks like the "spring offensive" is going on in Zaporizhzhia anyway.
    Which is what would make sense considering the positioning of Ukraine's army as mentioned a few days back.

  15. #9035
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    Or the Wagner/MoD infighting is involved.
    I don't think Prigozhin would risk this, the person responsible for this disaster will probably fall out of a teahouse window soon.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    You are, yet again, jumping to conclusions:
    https://www.npr.org/2023/06/08/11810...-ukrainian-dam
    There is a number of assumptions by the seismologist (Oye) that need to be true for your turn of events to be the case. But his data is not as accurate as you are implying.
    The only assumption which needs to be true is that no other explosion of seismically detectable magnitude happened in that short time window in that 30km radius area. If any other seismic explosion would have happened there we would know about it by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    as far as the water levels go, had you bothered to read the article, you would see they are talking about the flow coming from dams further up the river that Ukraine does still control. In fact, the article even gave a plausible explanation that those stations were also under pressure due to lack of maintenance and Ukraine did not want to risk them, so they increased the flow of water allowed to pass through.
    StarDreamer didnt read the article probably for the same reason I didnt read it: RT is blocked in the EU.

    I still lol at their explanation about how the Ukrainians raised the water level in the reservoir because there are satellite images proving that Russia only had 1 sluice gate open... out of the 22 gates.
    It was Russia who raised the water level to a 30 year record height.

  16. #9036
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    The only assumption which needs to be true is that no other explosion of seismically detectable magnitude happened in that short time window in that 30km radius area. If any other seismic explosion would have happened there we would know about it by now.
    No, it's not the only assumption. It's one in a series of assumptions. Including that the 30km radius is even accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    StarDreamer didnt read the article probably for the same reason I didnt read it: RT is blocked in the EU.
    And where do you think I live? Madagascar?
    I know the tv channel got banned, but I never had trouble accessing the website. Shame on the EU of course for gagging and policing the news like that. Unfortunately, that is the climate we live in currently. One of the many reasons I'm so disappointed in our leadership.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    I still lol at their explanation about how the Ukrainians raised the water level in the reservoir because there are satellite images proving that Russia only had 1 sluice gate open... out of the 22 gates.
    It was Russia who raised the water level to a 30 year record height.
    That's assuming the dam could be maintained properly and those gates were functional as expected. Which is... another assumption you are making. You see, there is a lot here that is uncertain, but you are just so very eager to point the finger at that evil maniac Putin and his Russky hordes. Your primary conclusion is already set. Russia is evil, so every assumption that proves that conclusion is the truth. Except, that's not how logic works.

    I'll say again, I don't know what happened with this dam yet. But it seems to be a move that harms Russia, both tactically and strategically, or at the very least any claimed tactical advantage is questionable. Russia did control the dam, so if one side or the other did it, Russia did seem to have more opportunity. But I'm still looking for a motive.
    Last edited by Alastor; June 09, 2023 at 12:27 PM.

  17. #9037
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Providing links to RT is like using Volkischer Beobachter. It's pure propaganda, and worthless as a source.

  18. #9038
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    The comments in the news i remember, like that of a former general of the German army and a military historian, strongly seem to establish that the military use of the destruction of the dam is negligible to non-existent for either side.

    No expert seems to take a clear position as to which side benefits (the most) with regard to short term strategic goals, as that might involve some reputational risk, but I really think it's much more likely the perpetrators are to be found on the Russian side.

    Why?

    1) The flooding has a catastrophic effect on the surrounding Ukrainian villages
    2) The Ukranians are the more "level-headed", competent strategists. Not that they aren't in great fear of a Russian victory, but they are better trained and have much better discipline and leadership. Why would they do this to the people they swore to defend for little to no military use?
    3) It seems much more likely that this was the attempt of some Russian commander to present a quick success to their higher ups and the Russian public.
    4) Russian strategists are generally more pressured to present some success, they are more desperate and they probably are very afraid of a Ukrainian counteroffensive. So they are generally much more inclined to do something rash and irrational.

    Obviously, points 1) and 2) are the most substantiated, but of course there is a small chance Ukrainians would do something pointlessly destructive like this to themselves, because they suddenly panic even though they have even built up the confidence for a counteroffensive. I'd say the chance for that to be the case is very small, though, and I cannot help but feeling slightly grumpy about the disdainful pre-judgement of the situation against the Ukrainians. It's one thing to assume it was the Russian side, which is engaged in an act of aggressive warfare, even involving warcrimes, that has nothing but contempt for the notion of international law anyhow. To ascribe this to the Ukrainians themselves is an entirely different caliber.

    EDIT: One funny, but not completely implausible thought is that Putin himself tries to be a great strategist and commands pointless crap like that. Seriously, why not? He is known to hilariously micro-mismanage. Maybe he is living out his teenage power fantasies of doing "genius" covert ops planning as a KGB officer?
    Last edited by swabian; June 09, 2023 at 03:24 PM.

  19. #9039
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Clear war crimes like shelling civilians and destroying critical infrastructure incline me to support massive ongoing sanctions for Putins Russian, and even more measures if required.

    There’s no question Ukraine is a dodgy East European mess but on every quantifiable level Russia has behaved worse than them, from invading under laughable pretexts (worse than the US in Iraq even, which was frankly awful) to the numerous offences against civilians and now this utter garbage.

    Ukraine should be supported to destroy the invading army, and arussias ability to invade other states limited.

    The the feeble propaganda about nuclear weapons has repeatedly proved a paper tiger(on par with the rest of Russian lies about this war, which make US and even Ukrainian propaganda sound reasonable by comparison): Putins desperate and reprehensible threats are yet another reason his regime should be booted hard and repeatedly.

    This filthy war started under false pretexts and escalated at all points by a cruel and merciless criminal must be stopped by destroying Russian capacity to continue if necessary.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  20. #9040
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    No, it's not the only assumption. It's one in a series of assumptions. Including that the 30km radius is even accurate.
    A series of assumptions? Name them.
    The 30km radius is accurate, but fine, lets double it. Did anything else exploded with such force during that night in that area?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    And where do you think I live? Madagascar?
    I know the tv channel got banned, but I never had trouble accessing the website. Shame on the EU of course for gagging and policing the news like that. Unfortunately, that is the climate we live in currently. One of the many reasons I'm so disappointed in our leadership.
    I dont have access to the RT site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    That's assuming the dam could be maintained properly and those gates were functional as expected. Which is... another assumption you are making. You see, there is a lot here that is uncertain, but you are just so very eager to point the finger at that evil maniac Putin and his Russky hordes. Your primary conclusion is already set. Russia is evil, so every assumption that proves that conclusion is the truth. Except, that's not how logic works.

    I'll say again, I don't know what happened with this dam yet. But it seems to be a move that harms Russia, both tactically and strategically, or at the very least any claimed tactical advantage is questionable. Russia did control the dam, so if one side or the other did it, Russia did seem to have more opportunity. But I'm still looking for a motive.
    Right, 21 out of the 22 gates malfunctioned... and no one thought to shoot holes in the gates with a BMP or something like that.

    You are making up absurd excuses.
    Last edited by Mithradates; June 10, 2023 at 05:26 AM.

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