View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    92 69.17%
  • I support Russia fully.

    14 10.53%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 3.01%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    8 6.02%
  • Not sure.

    7 5.26%
  • I don't care.

    8 6.02%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #8081
    Alastor's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    None of the arguments made to excuse/normalize Russian actions would be or have been used in favor of Turkey against Greece for the fraction of the severity of actions Russia has taken. Nobody falls for this empty "balanced discourse" BS some people are trying to cling to.
    I can't help but notice this tendency some folks here have to speak on everyone's behalf. it's like you can't have an opinion of your own unless you feel everyone is in your corner. It only becomes more sad when those assumed common beliefs are used to support nonsensical positions, like this one.

  2. #8082

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I can't help but notice this tendency some folks here have to speak on everyone's behalf. it's like you can't have an opinion of your own unless you feel everyone is in your corner. It only becomes more sad when those assumed common beliefs are used to support nonsensical positions, like this one.
    The opinions that you have expressed so far is what dictates that observation. The hypocritical argumentations have skyrocketed in this conflict. I'm amazed by how obvious it has become.
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  3. #8083
    Alastor's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The opinions that you have expressed so far is what dictates that observation. The hypocritical argumentations have skyrocketed in this conflict. I'm amazed by how obvious it has become.
    Oh it dictates it? Really now? Dictates? In what bizarro world logic? Seriously, do you even know what the words you are using mean? Or do you just have stock phrases you use when you run out of intelligible things to say just so that you can "have the last word"?

    I don't know about hypocritical argumentations, maybe you are more of an expert at that so you can argue for it if you want, but this debate sure has gotten rather tiring in the last few posts. Perhaps its time for another break.

  4. #8084
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    The basis is historical precedent, for instance atrocities against Serbs in Kosovo and Krajina during the Yugoslav Wars, or the expulsion and massacre of ethnic Germans in the Sudetenland and Germany's former eastern territories at the end of WWII.

    The issue in this case is how a Ukrainian national identity increasingly rooted in rejection and hatred of everything Russian (which it is hard to fault them for) reacts with a population that is dominated by ethnic Russians.
    Ukraine depends a lot on Western support and goodwill and Ukraine's long-term plan is to join the EU, and the EU is watching.
    The Ukrainians will not risk all this by committing genocide, of course (unfortunately) it is likely that some war crimes will be committed, but the Ukrainians dont have to be immaculate "White Knights", it will be enough if they remain "Light-Gray Knights".
    Compared to the Russians and seeing what atrocities they have committed so far in the war, it wont be difficult for the Ukrainians to look like the good guys.

  5. #8085
    Alastor's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Ukraine depends a lot on Western support and goodwill and Ukraine's long-term plan is to join the EU, and the EU is watching.
    The Ukrainians will not risk all this by committing genocide, of course (unfortunately) it is likely that some war crimes will be committed, but the Ukrainians dont have to be immaculate "White Knights", it will be enough if they remain "Light-Gray Knights".
    Compared to the Russians and seeing what atrocities they have committed so far in the war, it wont be difficult for the Ukrainians to look like the good guys.
    It won't be difficult for the Ukrainians to look like the good guys to us because our establishment unquestionably supports them already. How difficult do you think it would be for Ukraine to claim "the Russians did it" on any atrocity they commit? Who, of consequence, would dare doubt it? I mean, this is a world that is readily willing to believe that Russia bombed their own pipelines. And it would hardly be the first time we ignore war crimes because "our side did it" anyway, the examples are in fact numerous. So while I understand the argument you are trying to make. I think you are grossly overestimating our credibility as unbiased observers. We are anything but.

  6. #8086

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Oh it dictates it? Really now? Dictates? In what bizarro world logic? Seriously, do you even know what the words you are using mean? Or do you just have stock phrases you use when you run out of intelligible things to say just so that you can "have the last word"?

    I don't know about hypocritical argumentations, maybe you are more of an expert at that so you can argue for it if you want, but this debate sure has gotten rather tiring in the last few posts. Perhaps its time for another break.
    That response alone shows how spot on I was. Thank you for that.
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  7. #8087
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    It won't be difficult for the Ukrainians to look like the good guys to us because our establishment unquestionably supports them already. How difficult do you think it would be for Ukraine to claim "the Russians did it" on any atrocity they commit? Who, of consequence, would dare doubt it? I mean, this is a world that is readily willing to believe that Russia bombed their own pipelines. And it would hardly be the first time we ignore war crimes because "our side did it" anyway, the examples are in fact numerous. So while I understand the argument you are trying to make. I think you are grossly overestimating our credibility as unbiased observers. We are anything but.
    Absolutely. Anyone paying attention to what is going on around the world should be surprised at the proclamation of the arrest warrant against the President of the Russian Federation by the ICC in the Hague. How does a legal power of narrow scope, unrecognized by the major world powers, have the audacity to impose a fake manhunt on the leader of the Russian state? With an accusation that doesn't make proof, more so in an environment of belligerent antagonism and outside his jurisdiction. Strange, bizarre and dangerous conduct. It functions as a weapon of war, a weapon of war with "partis pris". The IIC is not international; neither Russia nor the United States, among several others, recognize the ICC. The U.S. even threatens to arrest and sanction judges and other officials of the International Criminal Court and prosecute them in the U.S. criminal justice system if it deems it necessary. Consequently, it is not even a court of justice. The ICC decides to arrest only those the US wants.

    Many will have already realized that NATO's expansion towards Russia was a mistake. The recognition of this fact does not mean that the invasion is legitimate. Yet, condemn or legitimize the invasion, is the myopic binary choice to which we are entitled to. The world is changing. China has established several agreements with Russia, and others are being established between African, Asian, and South American countries. Honduras establishes ties with China after ending recognition of taiwan.
    Saudi Arabia and Iran have re-established diplomatic relations, and Russia is promoting a rapprochement process between Syria and Turkey. Moscow to host Syria, Turkey, Iran, Russia meeting - Reuters
    None of this includes Europe. The idea of Putin being isolated is simply outdated. There is an international weariness of both U.S. imperialism and what remains of European colonialism. Congo president's criticism of Macron, Mali's position, or the presence of 40 African countries at the preparatory conference for the Africa-Russia Summit were not accidental. DRC President Urges France to End its 'Patronizing' Attitude Towards Africa.
    The way of seeing things when they happen in Africa must change in our relations with France in particular but also with the West in General,”
    The statements made by DRC’s president were warmly received and applauded by journalists and officials attending the press conference.
    Tshisekedi’s remarks have been echoed by several countries, refusing France’s attitude and neo-colonialism approach.
    In August 2022, the Malian government urged President Macron to abandon his “neocolonial and patronizing attitudes” against Mali, stressing that the French President and France need to “understand that no one can love Mali better than Malians.” .
    All these countries still live with the vestiges of the European colonization.
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  8. #8088
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Indeed, I remember writing sth similar a while back. The situation currently is: the US is winning, Russia is losing and Ukraine has already lost. Oh and don't even get me started on the EU and Germany in particular. But then again as Lord Ismay once said, the purpose of NATO is: to keep the Americans in, the Russians out and the Germans down. So working as designed I guess.
    No one can blame Ukraine for choosing their own poison. It doesn't seem like the US had to break anyone's arm to appear a better option here, and from Russias savage response it appears perhaps Russia had already lost.

    Claims for a sphere of influence may need to be pragmatically recognized, but they must be backed with strength and Russia is failing the strength test.

    Put as badly as possible, Ukraine is gambling on life support from a friendlier vampire. It's not freedom but it looks more free. Probably is.

    Best case for Ukraine is a west-funded bear keeper, not so bad for South Korea eventually, and very bad for Russia. RN Putin is breaking his teeth on the bars of his new cage.

    Rage around the decline of Russian strength is understandable, it was an international fact for centuries (with wobbles) and its destabilising to see it on a downward wobble. Theres a bit of that ITT and in general. So is violence related to the decline of an empire.

    Be nice for Russia to end the violence and accept change: not accepting it is hurting them RN.

  9. #8089
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    It's not a surprise to not understand how you went from this war, to the genocide of the jews*
    But it is impressive you think it's on the other "side's" mentality that this supposed parallelism or tie cannot be picked up.
    In reality, there aren't any sides, each person here only expresses their own self, which you'd soon pick up if not so much into seeing sides and teams.

    *it also creates unintentional historical comedy, if you take into account what Hitler himself wrote was an inspiration for the genocide solution; the genocide of armenians.
    Last edited by Kyriakos; March 29, 2023 at 01:14 PM.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
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  10. #8090
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Not much news of the war. I hope it won't last another year. But it is getting to the point where it does seem the only way for an end to this war is if US has to focus on other wars.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
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  11. #8091

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Ukraine depends a lot on Western support and goodwill and Ukraine's long-term plan is to join the EU, and the EU is watching.
    The Ukrainians will not risk all this by committing genocide, of course (unfortunately) it is likely that some war crimes will be committed, but the Ukrainians dont have to be immaculate "White Knights", it will be enough if they remain "Light-Gray Knights".
    Compared to the Russians and seeing what atrocities they have committed so far in the war, it wont be difficult for the Ukrainians to look like the good guys.
    That depends on how much the Europeans care. Given their rather open hatred of Russia, it doesn't seem likely that the Polish or the Balts at least would be bothered by atrocities against Russians. The French or (especially) Germans may feel differently, but their 'moral legitimacy' (for want of a better term) has been severely diminished in favour of the latter by recent events.

  12. #8092
    Alastor's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Here is a partial translation of Putin's recent interview with Pavel Zarubin:
    https://gilbertdoctorow.com/2023/03/...25-march-2023/
    There are a few interesting points here, including the author's general attitude towards the interview which appears colder than usual. Yet, sth I know at least one person here will enjoy is that Putin is a Hersh fan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Putin
    However, an American journalist who has become quite well known now in the world conducted an investigation and came to the conclusion that the explosion of the Nord Stream pipelines was organized by American intelligence agencies. I completely agree with such conclusions.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; March 30, 2023 at 05:45 AM. Reason: Continuity.

  13. #8093
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I guess the crunch comes if/when Crimea falls and Ukraine is faced with whatever Russia has done there demographically. If it's politically expedient to expel some Russians to get the plebiscite numbers right I have no doubt it will be done, and our light grey knights get a little darker.

    In many ways Russia's attack, motivated in my view by clinging to a past mental state, precipitate conditions more conducive to future ethnic cleansing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Not much news of the war. I hope it won't last another year. But it is getting to the point where it does seem the only way for an end to this war is if US has to focus on other wars.
    It is the rasputitsa my son, those of us familiar with Totaler Krieg can tell it restricts movement into and out of zones of control and diminishes combat results. You only attack in this period if you are desperate and need a VP point. In gaming terms is a very sticky time, and if you're silly enough to punch a tar baby you get what you deserve when the weather clears.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  14. #8094

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I guess the crunch comes if/when Crimea falls and Ukraine is faced with whatever Russia has done there demographically. If it's politically expedient to expel some Russians to get the plebiscite numbers right I have no doubt it will be done, and our light grey knights get a little darker.

    In many ways Russia's attack, motivated in my view by clinging to a past mental state, precipitate conditions more conducive to future ethnic cleansing.
    The population in Crimea was already majority Russian by a decent margin back before 2014, so the Russians wouldn't have really needed to do much for there to be a problem.

  15. #8095
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Many will have already realized that NATO's expansion towards Russia was a mistake.
    I don't, pretty sure you hard pressed to find many people in Eastern Europe who would agree with that either. Who are these people who think it was a mistake?

    The world is changing. China has established several agreements with Russia, and others are being established between African, Asian, and South American countries. Honduras establishes ties with China after ending recognition of taiwan.
    Err right what a techonomic shift in Chinese geopolitical power.... As soon as they toss out real economic data and and admit how big there economy is really not maybe I'll worry or not seeing as they lie through their teeth.

    Saudi Arabia and Iran have re-established diplomatic relations, and Russia is promoting a rapprochement process between Syria and Turkey. Moscow to host Syria, Turkey, Iran, Russia meeting - Reuters
    Umm so what?

    None of this includes Europe. The idea of Putin being isolated is simply outdated. There is an international weariness of both U.S. imperialism and what remains of European colonialism.
    That is beyond funny really you are going to follow a reference to a conference of "Moscow to host Syria, Turkey, Iran, Russia" with "U.S. imperialism"

    How do you sustain the level of cognitive dissonance necessary to type those words? Really? Russia a dictatorship actively engaged in a war of imperial conquest. Iran a Theocracy actively in the middle of violently oppressing its own people and aiding Russia in its imperialism. Turkey essentially a dictatorship quite happy to oppress its ethic minorities and invade Syria. Syria run by a dictator who is quite happy to burn his country to ground rather negotiate with protesters back in the day. I suppose none have any agency it all - Its all the fault of US imperialism otherwise they all be happy democracies right? I sure can find a quote from Noam Chomsky to that effect.

    Well fine I sure they will enjoy Russia and Wagner group running their mines instead see how that works out.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...ar-in-ukraine/

    And Of course China treats Africa like an equal - or not.

    https://www.business-standard.com/ar...2100753_1.html
    Last edited by conon394; March 30, 2023 at 04:41 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  16. #8096
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Here is a partial translation of Putin's recent interview with Pavel Zarubin:
    https://gilbertdoctorow.com/2023/03/...25-march-2023/
    There are a few interesting points here, including the author's general attitude towards the interview which appears colder than usual. Yet, sth I know at least one person here will enjoy is that Putin is a Hersh fan.
    Err you mean an aging Hersh quite well now known for rambling conspiracy theories bought my disinformation hook line and sinker and I am happy about that - Putin.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  17. #8097
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Not much news of the war. I hope it won't last another year. But it is getting to the point where it does seem the only way for an end to this war is if US has to focus on other wars.
    Gosh you you are right the Ukrainians have no say in their own fate at all its just the US.
    Last edited by conon394; March 30, 2023 at 04:19 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #8098
    Papay's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Some interesting notes

    https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-z...4e012db71920e5

    Zelensky claimed that if Russians take over Bakhmut Ukraine might be forced to negotiate

    https://www.straitstimes.com/world/e...ential-adviser

    The Ukrainian presidential advisor claimed the Kiev controls only one third of Bakhmut

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65075952

    Zelesnky claimed that no counter-offensive without more weapons.

    I think that we reach the point when Kiev will try to negotiate

  19. #8099
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    Some interesting notes

    https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-z...4e012db71920e5

    Zelensky claimed that if Russians take over Bakhmut Ukraine might be forced to negotiate

    https://www.straitstimes.com/world/e...ential-adviser

    The Ukrainian presidential advisor claimed the Kiev controls only one third of Bakhmut

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65075952

    Zelesnky claimed that no counter-offensive without more weapons.

    I think that we reach the point when Kiev will try to negotiate
    Err What? On the last point Ukraine is just now integrating the latest western top notch armor into it units. Why would Ukraine launch an offensive now in the mud and not just let Russia flounder in it?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  20. #8100

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Gosh you are right the Ukrainians have no in their own fate at all its just the US.
    Russia and it's apologists give no credit to the Ukrainians and give all the credit to the US and NATO because they are psychologically unable to admit to themselves that the Ukrainians could beat them. Russian culture and propaganda has always depicted Ukraine as inherently inferior to Russia. At best it is the 'little brother,' at worst it flat out has no right to exist at all. They should be steamrolling such an 'inferior' opponent, but in many cases are actually losing to them. To Russia and it's apologists this is utterly incomprehensible; it completely destroys Russia's collective identity as a great power. They cannot acknowledge Ukraine's prowess because in doing so, they admit that Russia is not as great a power as they thought it was.

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