View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

Voters
112. You may not vote on this poll
  • I support Ukraine fully.

    75 66.96%
  • I support Russia fully.

    12 10.71%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 3.57%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    6 5.36%
  • Not sure.

    7 6.25%
  • I don't care.

    8 7.14%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #5521

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    only the US are the bad imperialist boy.
    Well currently they trapped Russia in Ukraine (it's not a fault of USA) and knot up EU ones again on a militarily-economic-energy basis to himself. We are talking only about the Details of an ending which is already determined.

  2. #5522
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by saamohod View Post
    An opinion of a Russian historian Kamil Galeyev:
    What baffles me is how anyone can think that an exchange would involve just one or "a few" nukes, when the entire premise of MAD is that one strike will prompt the complete launch of the attacked country's entire ready stockpile on the perpetrator. The general launch serves three purposes; it acts as a proactive defense to knock out remaining launch sites, it absolutely destroys every population and military center of the attacked, and the premise of a human holocaust of such scale is so horrifying that it makes the war unthinkable for rational actors.

    The cases of restrained war are significantly fewer than cases of unrestrained war. A country must do whatever it takes to win.

    I certainly hope that these numbskulls aren't the kind of people that Putin surrounds himself with.
    Last edited by EmperorBatman999; September 29, 2022 at 04:41 PM.

  3. #5523
    Beorn's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Galeev is Tatar and Anti-Putin, politically he aligned with Nemtsov until his assassination.
    His takes as someone who was born and raised in Russia are very interesting to me as a "Westerner" with a pretty good grasp of Eastern European history, especially those regarding cultural and social phenomena. By the way, he considers Navalny almost as bad as Putin, agenda-wise.

  4. #5524
    saamohod's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    What baffles me is how anyone can think that an exchange would involve just one or "a few" nukes, when the entire premise of MAD is that one strike will prompt the complete launch of the attacked country's entire ready stockpile on the perpetrator. The general launch serves three purposes; it acts as a proactive defense to knock out remaining launch sites, it absolutely destroys every population and military center of the attacked, and the premise of a human holocaust of such scale is so horrifying that it makes the war unthinkable for rational actors.

    The cases of restrained war are significantly fewer than cases of unrestrained war. A country must do whatever it takes to win.

    I certainly hope that these numbskulls aren't the kind of people that Putin surrounds himself with.
    Ever heard of tactical nukes?
    "Orcs were mustering, and far to the east and the south the wild peoples were arming."
    J.R.R.Tolkien.

  5. #5525

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    What baffles me is how anyone can think that an exchange would involve just one or "a few" nukes, when the entire premise of MAD is that one strike will prompt the complete launch of the attacked country's entire ready stockpile on the perpetrator. The general launch serves three purposes; it acts as a proactive defense to knock out remaining launch sites, it absolutely destroys every population and military center of the attacked, and the premise of a human holocaust of such scale is so horrifying that it makes the war unthinkable for rational actors.

    The cases of restrained war are significantly fewer than cases of unrestrained war. A country must do whatever it takes to win.

    I certainly hope that these numbskulls aren't the kind of people that Putin surrounds himself with.
    I think the implication is more that a nuclear attack on Ukraine would trigger a (conventional) American intervention against Russian forces in the region, then Putin could claim 'defeat' by the US (or have China push for a ceasefire).

  6. #5526
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    The former Polish defense minister did the US a disservice by pointing the finger of blame on Biden for the terrorist attack.
    Nordstream 1 was already shut down since August. Gas prices went up in Europe after the sabotage. Biden certainly knew this would happen, but that didn't stop him from making the threat.

    We don’t know for sure who is to blame, but one thing is certain: if Putin had threatened to destroy the pipelines, no one would be arguing right now about who did it.

    I hear triumphalist speeches about Russia's future breakup (imagine what would happen to the world's largest atomic arsenal!) coming from Ukraine. Ukraine is not only interested in the breakup of Russia, but it is also interested in controlling the whole process,
    The deconstruction of Russia and reconstruction of a “post of a “post-Russia space”: a risky but inevitable scenario.
    Valerii Pekar is a co-founder of the Nova Kraina Civic Platform, the author of four books, an adjunct professor at the Kyiv-Mohyla Business School and a former member of the National Reform Council. Mychailo Wynnyckyj is an Associate Professor at Kyiv-Mohyla Academy and the Ukrainian Catholic University. He is also the author of Ukraine’s Maidan. Russia’s War. A Chronicle and Analysis of the Revolution of Dignity (Ibidem, 2019).

    (…) “Ukraine is interested in avoiding the chaotic uncontrolled collapse of the Russian Federation. The deconstruction of the Russian Federation was first talked about as impossible. Now it is talked about as possible and soon it will be talked about as desirable and even inevitable”.
    In the immediate future what I see are dark clouds and a bleak future for the Europeans, who unfortunately are not lucky enough to live thousands of miles away from the conflict zone. We live in a Europe that is in the process of becoming a new Middle East. Zelensky says wants Ukraine to become a "big Israel" but is shocked by Israel’s failure to give Ukraine weapons, Zelenskyy 'shocked' by Israel's failure to give Ukraine weapons
    Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says he is “in shock” at Israel’s failure to give Kyiv anti-missile systems to help counter Russian attacks.
    “I don’t know what happened to Israel”, he said.
    Lapid said he has called for “a diplomatic solution to end the fighting” in Ukraine.
    Blasphemy, Lapid. Anyone who calls for a diplomatic solution is “Putinist”.

    Polish Foreign Minister Zbiniew Rau assured that, in his country's opinion, the response to Russia's use of weapons of mass destruction on Ukrainian soil must be "devastating." Nuclear attack in Ukraine should spark 'devastating' Nato response says Poland

    NATO should not allow itself to be drawn into a direct conflict with Russia. Given the disproportion of forces in NATO's favor, nuclear conflict would be immediate and inevitable. Poland (like the Baltic countries) has long been trying to push NATO for tougher intervention against Russia. Not everyone finds this funny. NATO can only activate article 5 if a NATO ally is attacked.

    It is easy to see why 77 percent of Germans are of the opinion that the West should start negotiations to end the Ukraine war, and 87 percent of those surveyed think it is right for western heads of government to continue working with Putin Umfrage: Mehrheit will Verhandlungen über Kriegsende - Politik
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  7. #5527
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    What do think there is to negotiate Ludicus? What terms exactly you keep calling for negotiation but you have no play book.

    I hear triumphalist speeches about Russia's future breakup (imagine what would happen to the world's largest atomic arsenal!) coming from Ukraine. Ukraine is not only interested in the breakup of Russia, but it is also interested in controlling the whole process,
    Wow really you did up one commentary and jump perfidious Ukraine plotting to destroy Russia as national policy.

    Oh back a while you had these odd points:

    Neoliberalism does not mean less state. It is the state protecting shareholders, corporations, and destroying the very ability of the labor force to reproduce, which lacks the bare minimum, let alone the essential and deserving dignity we all should have as human beings.
    If we say that behind the war in Ukraine the neoliberal-imperialist globalization is also at stake, we are not far from the truth. Since a long time ago, a significant part of Ukraine's agricultural fields has already been sold to foreign multinationals. Who Owns Agricultural Land in Ukraine? | The Oakland Institute
    Not only that. Already in 2021, Ukraine’s lithium wealth was drawing western global/corporate attention: European Lithium to buy Ukrainian lithium mines in a year ghgfh

    Meanwhile, at the behest of Ursula, for the common citizen sea baths and cold water, while the prices of essential goods are rising every day. Europeans worry cost of living crisis will cause social unrest-Survey
    On the Latter. You can't steal a mine or mines. Now how Ukraine manages the regulation and taxation of Lithium extraction is important. The involvement of a foreign capital not so much. and you link actual hysterical reporting aside does not answer the question. BP is not stealing oil from the state of Alaska as the comparatively well regulated industry there and regular payments to the Alaska permanent fund attest (and subsequent yearly payments to all state residents).

    On the Former. Again there is no particular analysis provided just fear mongering over land sales. Do people want to live as small farmers. What was the size of plot handed out of the collectives? Were they viable to achieve a decent lifestyle or would a lot people rather sell or lease and go live in Kyiv? Compare Iowa technical well near over 95% of land is what the state calls a 'family farm' - in that its owned by an individual or family LLC and farmed. The majority of that is 325 acres or less. But that is essentially all leased because you really can make a decent living on 325 acres. The family owners all having long since moved away and work jobs and don't want to live in Boone Iowa.
    Last edited by conon394; September 30, 2022 at 07:06 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  8. #5528

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Blasphemy, Lapid. Anyone who calls for a diplomatic solution is “Putinist”.
    Your source doesn't support that. Why are you putting words in people's mouth? That's a very dangerous and shameful game you're playing there.
    The Armenian Issue
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  9. #5529
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Russia has now annexed the biggest amount of European territory since Hitler in WW2. Today 84 years ago the Munich Agreement was signed allowing Hitler to annex the Sudentenland. What a coincidence.
    Last edited by Vanoi; September 30, 2022 at 10:07 AM.

  10. #5530
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    So that kinda puts paid to the ideal all Putin wanted was the Donbas autonomy and Ukraine neutrality. Did the Russian soldiers in Lyman get to vote or are they busy working out their best surrender options.
    Last edited by conon394; September 30, 2022 at 12:39 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  11. #5531
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Originally Posted by Ludicus
    Blasphemy, Lapid. Anyone who calls for a diplomatic solution is “Putinist”.

    Your source doesn't support that... That's a very dangerous and shameful game you're playing there.
    Yes it does. Read properly before making shameful insinuations. It is written here,
    Zelenskyy 'shocked' by Israel's failure to give Ukraine weapons
    Lapid said he has called for “a diplomatic solution to end the fighting” in Ukraine.
    True or false? that's the reason why I made the joke:"Blasphemy, Lapid. Anyone who calls for a diplomatic solution is “Putinist”.

    More, Prime Minister Yair Lapid speaks with President of Ukraine
    ...and called for reaching a diplomatic solution in order to end the fighting.
    Furthermore, it seems to me that you don't like the fact that Zelensky is disappointed when he says,
    "I' don't know what happened to Israel.I am stating the facts. My conversations with the Israeli leadership have done nothing to help Ukraine.”
    More, Zelensky on twitter,September 1,

    I've held the first telephone conversation with the new Prime Minister of Israel @yairlapid. I count on his country’s accession to the sanctions on Russia and provision of practical assistance to Ukraine in countering the aggression of the Russian Federation. 2:10 PM · 1 de set de 2022
    Just sit back and wait, Zelensky.

    What happened to Israel? a little thing called realpolitik. Why Israel Refused to Help Ukraine Defend Itself From Russia

    EDIT; a final note. I don't accept your comment ("dangerous game"). It sounds like a psychological intimidation.That's where Salazar's police started, before resorting to physical intimidation.

    ----
    ----
    15 EU member states call for price cap on all wholesale transactions
    The letter was signed by the energy ministers from (in alphabetical order): Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, France, Greece, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia and Spain.
    Notably absent from the list are Germany and the Netherlands.
    A short overview of the main points of an article published by Rita Siza, Brussels.Published today. Comissão ao lado da Alemanha contra um tecto ao preço
    Commission siding with Germany against a cap on the price of imported gas” ( traduttori, traditori)

    The European Commission wants to cap the price of gas that comes from Russia but does not agree with this when it comes to gas that is sold by its "reliable partners”.

    15 EU countries in disagreement with this proposal, signed a letter to the European Commission, to pressure Brussels to put a lid on sky-high fuel costs. The EU is paying twice what its Asian competitors are paying, and ten times more than the United States, for the liquefied gas (LNG).

    This price cap does not convince Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands. The Germans because they are financially able to outbid the competition when negotiating with European suppliers; the Dutch and Danes because they are producers and exporters of gas. The only price limitation accepted by the European Union is for the gas that still comes from Russia. This is a measure that will never be accepted by Hungary.
    ---
    As we can see, they all defend their own interests. Germany, because it has the financial conditions to overcome other European competitors. Other countries, because they are producers and exporters of gas, and are not interested in having their prices capped,

    Norway delivers all the gas it can to Germany

    Norway is delivering all the gas it can to Germany. The value of Norway’s natural gas exports hit a record 128.4 billion Norwegian crowns ($13.22 billion) in July as prices and demand in Europe surged.
    Candidly, the FT argues,
    It's time for Europe to ask Norway to cut the price of gas- Financial Times

    However nice the gas windfall Norway is reaping seems today — and at the equivalent of almost $400 a barrel of oil it is mind-bogglingly huge — it is not in the country’s strategic interests to see its neighbours fall into a deep recession.
    Gas prices have doubled since then and now trade at more than ten times the level they averaged over the previous decade.
    If Oslo was to agree to cap the price at something like the equivalent of $150-$200 a barrel of oil — more than Norway earned on average in the first half of this year, when state-backed energy champion Equinor enjoyed record profits — that would still be painful but manageable for European economies.

    It is crucial for Europe to avoid falling into the resource nationalism trap.
    Since when is the FT naïve?
    Last edited by Ludicus; September 30, 2022 at 12:58 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  12. #5532

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    What happened to Israel? a little thing called realpolitik. Why Israel Refused to Help Ukraine Defend Itself From Russia
    Yeah, so what's your point? Neither Lapid, nor really anybody else in Israel thinks that it's in Ukraine's interest to negotiate at this point. What is in Israel's interest, is a weaker Russia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  13. #5533
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    ...and called for reaching a diplomatic solution in order to end the fighting.
    That is essentially meaningless text.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #5534

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Yes it does. Read properly before making shameful insinuations. It is written here,
    Zelenskyy 'shocked' by Israel's failure to give Ukraine weapons
    True or false? that's the reason why I made the joke:"Blasphemy, Lapid. Anyone who calls for a diplomatic solution is “Putinist”.
    More, Prime Minister Yair Lapid speaks with President of Ukraine
    Furthermore, it seems to me that you don't like the fact that Zelensky is disappointed when he says,
    More, Zelensky on twitter,September 1,
    Just sit back and wait, Zelensky.
    What happened to Israel? a little thing called realpolitik. Why Israel Refused to Help Ukraine Defend Itself From Russia
    EDIT; a final note. I don't accept your comment ("dangerous game"). It sounds like a psychological intimidation.That's where Salazar's police started, before resorting to physical intimidation.
    Did Zelensky say that he was disappointed about Israel's passive stance? Or did he call them a Putinist as you suggest? The sources only support one. You're merely lying about what Zelensky said. It is indeed a very dangerous game you're playing as you're propagating blind propaganda in favor of Russia.
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  15. #5535

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    By the number of Russians fleeing the country seems even a large number of the russians themselves don't support the ukraine invasion (or if supported back then, not now). "partial" mobilization in effect breaks the "SMO" propaganda pretentions.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  16. #5536
    Papay's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    By the number of Russians fleeing the country seems even a large number of the russians themselves don't support the ukraine invasion (or if supported back then, not now). "partial" mobilization in effect breaks the "SMO" propaganda pretentions.
    Hope so. Because if Russia manages to send another 200-300.000 soldiers in Ukraine this will be the end of it

  17. #5537

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    Hope so. Because if Russia manages to send another 200-300.000 soldiers in Ukraine this will be the end of it
    1.This is a risky gamble. Putin is in the most politically fragile phase in his career so far.
    2.Even when Russia was fighting big defensive wars it was hard to put discipline into large scale conscription.

    Plus you'll also be giving a crowd of 200k-300k people with fresh visceral reasons for anti-putin mindset military training and weaponry. It's a double edged knife.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  18. #5538

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    Hope so. Because if Russia manages to send another 200-300.000 soldiers in Ukraine this will be the end of it
    The end of it for Russia? Perhaps. Sending thousands of badly trained forced recruits with bad equipment that will put extra load on Russian logistics will help the Ukrainians more than it will the Russians.
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  19. #5539
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    Hope so. Because if Russia manages to send another 200-300.000 soldiers in Ukraine this will be the end of it
    Maybe if Russia was sending Soldiers and had the logistics to sustain them. 200-300,000 war bodies not so much.

    Quick question Papay. How long does a US army soldier train for in OSU?

    ------------

    We don’t know for sure who is to blame, but one thing is certain: if Putin had threatened to destroy the pipelines, no one would be arguing right now about who did it.
    A few measure answers leading to Putin

    https://www.duckofminerva.com/2022/0...rd-stream.html
    https://slantchev.wordpress.com/2022...tary-solution/

    I don't think either one mention in their discussion the old land based system still exists that goes through Poland and Ukraine. With the tap just turned off at N1 and 2 Germany maybe could have started backing out of support for Ukraine and sanctions etc and got some gas back. But now to get Russian gas it would have to actively be pressuring Poland and Ukraine to give Putin his way.
    Last edited by conon394; October 01, 2022 at 09:37 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  20. #5540
    Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    Hope so. Because if Russia manages to send another 200-300.000 soldiers in Ukraine this will be the end of it
    If we invade this will be the end of it. 3 days and this will be the end of it. 3 weeks and this will be the end of it. 300,000 more soldiers and this will be the end of it.

    There is no military end game for a Russian win. Putin seems to have surrendered the initiative when he ignored military advice and sent the VDV to die. Russia may not even hold the ground it stole last time the way things are going. The diplomatic pressure on Europe through gas terrorism is still very strong, maybe he gets the EU to crack? I think the US has enough Russia haters along the border (Poland, Finland, the Baltics) to protect Ukraine.

    It seems very likely Putin's final act as President has been to hammer NATO back into relevance, and slip the noose around his own neck. Good luck to our Russian friends, typically regime change there involves mass death.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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