View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    75 66.96%
  • I support Russia fully.

    12 10.71%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 3.57%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    6 5.36%
  • Not sure.

    7 6.25%
  • I don't care.

    8 7.14%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #5421
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You're not waiting for a reason. You're cowering behind your lack of arguments to address any reason already given to you. Neither USA nor EU flooded Ukraine with weapons. Every party committed less than they promised. In any case ammo logistics is a whole different story.




    What makes 700k maximum of number of ment o be drafted from a pool of 35 million?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...-Ukrainian_War

    No aid from the west sure

  2. #5422

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    Sigh... Your arguments are devoid of any intelligent thought. There are worlds apart between flooding Ukraine with weapons and not providing any aid. Why waste time with such idiotic arguments? What do you think you accomplish with it?
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future



    The change of tones from pro-Putin people everywhere is really funny.

    From "stop resisting" to "stop helping or we all go boom" and now to "our soldiers are poor and innocent" and "stop hating us"


    We should do exactly what Ludicus says we're doing. Drop the moral high ground and focus on ending their centuries old mafia organization they call state. There is no reason not to.

  4. #5424
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    I regret to say that irrationality may be winning out over rationality.
    May? That fight was lost years ago.
    ---

    It would appear Scott Ritter agrees with my earlier assumption that the partial mobilisation and the referenda are a prelude to total war in Ukraine.
    https://consortiumnews.com/2022/09/2...the-whirlwind/

    Also it is worth noting that the claims by the western press about friction in the relationship of China and Russia, due to that comment by Putin in his press conference in Samarkand, may have been grossly exaggerated. I have doubts Putin would opt for such an escalation if Xi now opposed Russia's actions in Ukraine.

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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I wouldn't be sure about Xi's real intention.

    China has been a geopolitical enemy to Russia over eastern Siberia for centuries and turning Russia into a powerless gas station would be the best thing happened to them, giving them an energy source not under US control.

    CCP is, of course, not claiming that, but if they could encourage Putin to commit suicide they certainly would.

  6. #5426
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Sigh... Your arguments are devoid of any intelligent thought. There are worlds apart between flooding Ukraine with weapons and not providing any aid. Why waste time with such idiotic arguments? What do you think you accomplish with it?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...-Ukrainian_War

    USA aid from the source i posted

    President Joe Biden approved military aid for Ukraine:

    • 90 tons[clarification needed] of lethal military equipment on 22 January 2021.[502][503]
    • $125 million of lethal military equipment on 1 March 2021.[504][505]
    • $150 million of lethal military equipment on 11 June 2021.[506][507]
    • $60 million of lethal military equipment on 1 September 2021.[508][509][510]
    • $350 million of lethal military equipment, on 25 February 2022.[511][512][513]
    • US Secretary of State Antony Blinken assured Ukraine's foreign minister Dmytro Kuleba of unspecified further military aid, on 1 March 2022.[514][515]
    • $200 million of arms and equipment, including Javelin anti-tank missiles and Stinger anti-aircraft missiles, on 12 March 2022.[516]
    • The White House said that before 16 March 2022, aid sent by the US included:[517]
      • 600 Stinger systems
      • About 2,600 Javelin missiles
      • Five Mil Mi-17 helicopters
      • Three patrol boats
      • Four counter-artillery and counter-unmanned aerial system tracking radars
      • Four counter-mortar radar systems
      • 200 grenade launchers and ammunition
      • 200 shotguns
      • 200 machine guns
      • Nearly 40 million rounds of small arms ammunition
      • Over 1 million grenade, mortar and artillery rounds
      • 70 Humvees and other vehicles
      • Unspecified amounts of secure communications, electronic warfare detection systems, body armor, helmets and other tactical gear, military medical equipment, explosive ordnance disposal and demining equipment
      • Satellite imagery and analysis capability.

    • $800 million in military equipment announced on 16 March 2022, funded from the $13.6 billion in aid signed on 15 March. The package includes:[518]
      • 2,000 Javelin anti-tank missiles
      • 1,000 light anti-armor weapons
      • 6,000 AT4 anti-armor systems
      • 800 Stinger anti-aircraft systems
      • 100 Switchblade drones[519]
      • 100 grenade launchers
      • 5,000 rifles
      • 1,000 pistols
      • 400 machine guns
      • 400 shotguns
      • Over 20 million rounds of small arms ammunition, grenade launcher rounds and mortar rounds
      • 25,000 sets of body armor
      • 25,000 helmets
      • Laser-Guided Rockets

    • $800 million of lethal military equipment, on 13 April 2022:[520][521]

    • $800m military package was announced 21 April completing the drawdown from the $13.6bn military and humanitarian funding envelope approved by Congress 15 March[525]
      • 72 M777 155 mm towed howitzer with 144,000 rounds of ammunition[525]
      • 72 artillery towing vehicles
      • 121 Phoenix Ghost tactical drones, a reduced capability alternative to the Switchblade quickly designed for export to Ukraine.[526]

    5 May the California National Guard had announced it had donated 4,320 ballistic vests, 1,580 helmets and facilitated the delivery of 7 medical field stations to Ukraine.[527] 6 May another military package was announced worth $150 million:[528]

    • 25,000 155mm artillery shells
    • Counter artillery radars
    • Jamming equipment
    • Spare parts[529]

    19 May 2022, the Department of Defense (DoD) announces the authorization of a Presidential Drawdown of security assistance valued at up to an additional $100 million:[530]

    • 18 155mm Howitzers;
    • 18 Tactical Vehicles to tow 155mm Howitzers;
    • 3 AN/TPQ-36 counter-artillery radars; and
    • Field equipment and spare parts.

    1 June 2022 another military package was announced worth $700 million High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems and ammunition;

    • Four M142 HIMARS and ammunition
    • Five counter-artillery radars
    • Two air surveillance radars
    • 1,000 Javelin missiles and 50 Command Launch Units
    • 6,000 anti-armour weapons
    • 15,000 155 millimetre artillery rounds,
    • Four Mi-17 helicopters
    • 15 tactical vehicles
    • Spare parts and equipment [531][532]

    15 June 2022 the twelfth military package was announced worth $1 billion;

    • 18 155mm M777 howitzer howitzers
    • 18 tactical vehicles for towing howitzers
    • 36,000 155mm artillery shells
    • Additional ammunition for High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems
    • Four tactical recovery vehicles
    • Spare parts and other equipment
    • Two Harpoon coastal defence launchers without ammunition
    • Thousands of military radios
    • Thousands of night vision equipment and optics
    • Funding for training, maintenance, sustainment, transportation, and administrative costs [533]

    23 June 2022 thirteenth military package was announced worth $450 million;

    • Four additional M142 HIMARS
    • 36,000 105mm artillery shells
    • 18 artillery towing tactical vehicles
    • 1,200 grenade launchers
    • 2000 machine guns
    • Two Small unit riverine craft
    • 10 Sea Ark Dauntless-class patrol boats
    • Six 40-foot maritime combat craft
    • Spare parts and other equipment [534][535]

    1 July the United States government announced the 14th aid package for Ukraine including:

    • "Additional ammunition for High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS)";
    • "Two National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile Systems (NASAMS)";
    • "Up to 150,000 rounds of 155mm artillery ammunition"; and
    • "Four additional counter-artillery radars." Some total $820 million in total.[536]

    8 July the United States announced their 15th aid package valued at $400 million, the package includes:

    • 4 additional M142 HIMARS (bringing the number of HIMARS pledged to Ukraine to 12).
    • Additional HIMARS ammunition.
    • Additional 155mm artillery shells including “A new type [of] 155 mm artillery ammunition," A senior U.S. official said these shells offer a “greater precision” than ordinary shells. Not confirming if they M982 Excalibur the official said: “It offers Ukraine precise capability for specific targets. It will save ammunition. It will be more effective due to the precision.” [537]
    • “Three tactical trucks”
    • “Counter-battery systems”
    • “Demolition munitions” [538]

    22 July 2022 the United States government announced their 16th aid package valued at $270 million consisting of:

    • Four additional M142 HIMARS with ammunition, bring the number pledged to 16.
    • Four command post vehicles.
    • 36,000 105mm artillery shells.
    • Up to 580 Phoenix Ghost loitering drones.
    • Additional anti-armour weapons of unknown model or quantity.
    • Additional spare parts and other equipment.[539]

    1 August 2022, the US has announced the 17th aid package for Ukraine, valued at $550 million. Including 75,000 rounds of 155mm and more HIMARS ammunition.[540]
    8 August 2022 the US DoD announced the 18th military aid package for Ukraine:

    • Additional HIMARS ammunition
    • 75,000 155mm artillery shells
    • 20 120mm mortars
    • 20,000 120mm mortar rounds
    • Munitions for the NASAMS
    • 1,000 Javelin and "hundreds" of AT4 anti armour weapons
    • Claymore mines
    • C-4 explosives, demolitions munitions and demolition equipment
    • 50 armoured medical vehicles
    • Medical supplies, to include first aid kits, bandages, monitors, and other equipment.[541]

    20 August 2022 the US DoD announced the 19th military aid package for Ukraine:

    • Additional ammunition for HIMARS
    • 16 105mm Howitzers and 36,000 105mm artillery rounds
    • 15 Scan Eagle UAVs
    • 40 International MaxxPro MRAP vehicles with mine rollers
    • Additional high speed anti-radiation missiles
    • 50 armoured Humvee vehicles
    • 1,500 BGM-71 TOW missiles
    • 1,000 Javelin anti armour systems
    • 2,000 "anti armour rounds"
    • Mine clearing equipment and systems
    • Demolitions munitions
    • Tactical secure communications systems
    • Night vision devices, thermal imagery systems, optics, and laser rangefinders.[542]

    The Pentagon has also confirmed that Ukraine has been supplied with AGM-88 HARM at an unknown date after wreckage was found near a Russian position.[543]
    24 August a $2.98bn package through the Foreign Military Sales process was announced for Ukraine to purchase military hardware from manufacturers, including:

    • Air defense systems.
    • Artillery systems and munitions.
    • Counter-unmanned aerial systems, and radars. These purchases will come directly from US manufacturers with deliveries over a two-year period. Unlike previous donations which were mostly from existing US military stocks this will be for freshly manufactured equipment.[544]

    8 September 2022 the US DoD announced the 20th military aid package to Ukraine:

    • Additional ammunition for HIMARS
    • Four 105mm Howitzers and 36,000 105mm artillery rounds
    • Additional High-speed Anti-radiation missiles (HARM)
    • 100 Armored High-Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicles (HMMWV)
    • 1.5 million rounds of small arms ammunition
    • More than 5,000 anti-armor systems
    • 1,000 155mm rounds of Remote Anti-Armor Mine (RAAM) Systems
    • Additional grenade launchers and small arms
    • 50 armoured medical treatment vehicles#
    • Night vision devices and other field equipment.[545]

    15 September 2022 the US DoD announced the 21st military aid package to Ukraine:

    • Additional ammunition for High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS)
    • 36,000 105mm artillery rounds
    • 1,000 precision-guided 155mm artillery rounds
    • Four counter-artillery radars
    • Four trucks and eight trailers to transport heavy equipment;
    • Counter-Unmanned Aerial Systems
    • Mine clearing equipment
    • Claymore anti-personnel munitions
    • Demolition munitions and equipment
    • Small arms and ammunition
    • Night vision devices, cold weather gear, and other field equipment



    This is ONLY USA. I dont post what the rest of the west has provided because the post will be very long. But, yeah, enlighten us on what YOU consider proper aid for Ukraine

  7. #5427

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    I ran through the list, trying to get a sense of how many small arms have been sent to Ukraine, because that's what every soldier needs. Best I can tell, because the numbers often aren't declared, so I had to estimate it through comparison, we're talking about couple hundred thousand of assault rifles, SMGs/PDWs and machineguns, maybe half a million at best.

    While enough to equip the mobilized reserves, it's far from providing for the several million people that could be drafted from general population.

  8. #5428

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    Now do how much of it actually got delivered to Ukraine and how many soldiers you can equip them with. Merely throwing up numbers does not make up a good argument.
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  9. #5429
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    I ran through the list, trying to get a sense of how many small arms have been sent to Ukraine, because that's what every soldier needs. Best I can tell, because the numbers often aren't declared, so I had to estimate it through comparison, we're talking about couple hundred thousand of assault rifles, SMGs/PDWs and machineguns, maybe half a million at best.

    While enough to equip the mobilized reserves, it's far from providing for the several million people that could be drafted from general population.
    Several million? Thats impossible. A country like imperial Germany during ww1, that had 70 million people managed to create a mobilized army of 3.500.000 million. Keep in mind that it was a militaristic society and the average German was much younger than the average Ukrainian

  10. #5430
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Now do how much of it actually got delivered to Ukraine and how many soldiers you can equip them with. Merely throwing up numbers does not make up a good argument.
    Enlighten us

  11. #5431

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    Several million? Thats impossible. A country like imperial Germany during ww1, that had 70 million people managed to create a mobilized army of 3.500.000 million. Keep in mind that it was a militaristic society and the average German was much younger than the average Ukrainian
    We're talking about general mobilization, which means every able-bodied male between 18 and 65. So, around quarter of the population, give or take. That's the edge case of course.

    So far, only the 700k reserves were mobilized. Not general population, although they've been restricted from leaving the country so they could be drafted as needed.

  12. #5432
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    We're talking about general mobilization, which means every able-bodied male between 18 and 65. So, around quarter of the population, give or take. That's the edge case of course.

    So far, only the 700k reserves were mobilized. Not general population, although they've been restricted from leaving the country so they could be drafted as needed.
    You cannot draft every single male in the country

  13. #5433
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    ...
    Also it is worth noting that the claims by the western press about friction in the relationship of China and Russia, due to that comment by Putin in his press conference in Samarkand, may have been grossly exaggerated. I have doubts Putin would opt for such an escalation if Xi now opposed Russia's actions in Ukraine.
    That was seen in my country as Russia begging permission from China. Clearly it was given.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  14. #5434
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    That was seen in my country as Russia begging permission from China. Clearly it was given.
    Begging for permission would be the "let's belittle and ridicule Putin and Russia some more" interpretation.

    But either way, it means China is still on Russia's side. Which is the point. it would be interesting to see if China would provide more meaningful assistance too.

  15. #5435

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    You cannot draft every single male in the country
    The pool is there. How many will be drawn from it depends on many factors, it's not as simple as you claim. If it proves to be necessary and Ukraine receives enough support and funding to keep the country running due to workforce drain, it could muster several million troops. But so far, situation doesn't warrant it. That might change.

  16. #5436

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    Enlighten us
    I can't make that sound simpler. Sorry.
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  17. #5437
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Those are already gone or trying to leave the sinking Boat. Currently neither Mr.Putin or even those other people can want the continuing of this War but pushing them towards are more into abyss will have more consequences then benefits.
    It's far from abyss. They can surrender themselves to save 140 millions of Russian people.

    Their MAD is not going to work and instead of angry exchange of words we should tell them straight that we're willing to sacrefice entire Russia.

  18. #5438

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    https://www.newsweek.com/videos-show...zation-1746003

    Videos continue to emerge allegedly showing Russian conscripts drunk or exhibiting disorderly behavior as the country attempts to mobilize a 300,000 reservists.
    Footage of newly conscripted Russian troops who appeared to be drunk or unwilling to obey orders had already been shared to social media this week following President Vladimir Putin's announcement of partial mobilization.
    New videos reportedly show conscripts asleep, refusing to form ranks and in one case engaged in a fight. The footage has emerged as four areas of Ukraine now under Russian control carry out referendums on joining Russia, which have been widely dismissed as a "sham."
    Moscow-based British journalist Danny Armstrong shared a video to Twitter on Saturday morning that he said showed some drunk conscripts sleeping
    I'm sure these crack troops will turn the tide!

  19. #5439
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Probably don't have to.

    My bet is just be dumped off in occupied space to let whatever is left of the professional Russian army(plus mercs and press soldiers already being cannon fodder) hold the line. Finish the sham vote. Declare occupied territory Mother Russia. Than invoke the nuclear defense of Mother Russia all the way up to whatever Russia is holding on that day - any advance is an invasion and invokes a threat to Russia that allows for escalation deescalation nuclear doctrine.... then see what Biden is willing to drop next.
    Last edited by conon394; September 24, 2022 at 07:54 PM.
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  20. #5440

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    https://www.newsweek.com/videos-show...zation-1746003



    I'm sure these crack troops will turn the tide!
    This will help you understand what they'll be going through:
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...524838915.html

    They'll be given two weeks basic training and then thrown into the fray, because under Russian system recruits receive most training at their unit....which is kinda hard to do when you're already at the frontline.

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