View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

Voters
89. You may not vote on this poll
  • I support Ukraine fully.

    61 68.54%
  • I support Russia fully.

    9 10.11%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    3 3.37%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    5 5.62%
  • Not sure.

    6 6.74%
  • I don't care.

    5 5.62%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #4001
    StarDreamer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    I was really surprised that they were worried about National Security. Protecting the Homeland is a very foreign concept to both Finland and Sweden, and it is condemned by the Public. They bring not only wolves but also ISIS militants from the Middle East and feed them. Finland brings the IS militants and feeds them with its own tax - Source:

    https://yle.fi/news/3-12024840
    https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/...camp-1.6292830

    Of course, due to the uncontrolled influx of former ISIS members and sympathizers, there was also a terrorist attack in the city of Turku in Finland. Armed immigrant groups commit crimes all the time in the slums. Despite all this, those who say "the homeland is going away" are called racist in these two countries, and the whole Nobel Prize system is based on this mentality. They even get triggerd from words like "Motherland" or "Fatherland".
    Yes, of course a nation with the amount of military hardware and one of the few remaining and advanced conscription armies "doesn't care about national security". A few mothers and their children will hardly change the security situation in Finland no matter the horrid and deplorable ideology they follow, and as should be clear this was a decision by left wing parties opposed by the parties in the opposition. Protecting the homeland is in Finnish mentality, with one of the highest percentages of people ready to defend their homeland.

    And if we want someone to blame for how that certain terrorist arrived in Europe and later Finland. I give you this country and its habit of pressuring these people over into Europe.
    And no the type of American left ideology is not as widespread as you make it out to be. In fact it is quite often openly opposed in some newspapers as dangerous and wholly unsuitable to Finland.

    You are spreading so much bs propaganda and outright lies. If this is the general level of knowledge in Turkey, no wonder that inflation is doing a repeat of Weimar Germany.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
    https://www.politicalcompass.org/ana...2.38&soc=-3.44 <-- "Dangerous far right bigot!" -SJWs

  2. #4002
    Alastor's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Erdogan, ever the opportunist, simply saw a chance to get some concessions from the US or the EU in order to rubber stamp Finland's and Sweden's NATO entry. That's all I believe this noise to be. But, this is too important for even Erdogan to dare seriously risk. It's already touted as tangible proof of Russia's failure, plus the US seems to be quite serious about it and wouldn't easily swallow a Turkish veto.

    Meanwhile back to the EU, the proposed oil embargo remains deadlocked, with Hungary "fingered" as the villain: https://ca.news.yahoo.com/live-updat...071634065.html
    And that in the middle of a crisis, owed to a significant extent to the sanctions imposed on Russia and the energy-driven inflation that followed.
    Last edited by Alastor; May 16, 2022 at 03:45 AM.

  3. #4003
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Ukraine 'can win' war against Russia, says NATO chief

    ------
    While Russia's weaponry reserves are not infinite, Ukraine receives an almost "infinite" number of different weapons systems every single day. There are those who who think that the chance of Russia using one or two tactical nukes is very small, but that risk is going to increase substantially in the near future.Obviously, Russia is unlikely to declare defeat and retreat, Putin is much more likely to escalate.American strategists say the risk is less than 1%, but living thousands of miles away from Europe, they feel comfortable dealing with this eventuality.
    Negotiations could have averted the war at the start of the year, Diplomats & experts: negotiate, or expect 'drastic escalation ... but Washington rejected, In responses to Russia, US stands firm on who can join NATO ...and here we are in a situation that has no satisfying answers.

    Meanwhile, if the US Senate approves the additional 38 or 40 billion to help Ukraine, when added to the 3.6 billion Congress approved in March, would push American aid to Ukraine above 50 billion.The total add to Russia total aid to Ukraine will almost equal the entire military budget of Russia."According to McConnell, "helping Ukraine is not an instance of mere philanthropy, it bears directly on America's national security and vital interests”.
    Obviously, we are aware that this is not true; it’s not true that the Russia -Ukrainian war “bears directly on America's national security”. This statement would probably make more sense if the US were in Russia's place.
    ----
    In times of war, music frequently serves as a means of propaganda.
    It’s a farce, but who cares? NATO "I would like to congratulate Ukraine for winning”. Follow the link " vêr no youtube"





    Occasionally even the best of friends get angry...

    Culture minister: Ukrainian jury giving zero points to Poland ...
    Ukraine's Culture Minister Oleksandr Tkachenko said it was “very embarrassing” that the Ukrainian jury gave zero points to Poland and Lithuania in the Eurovision Song Contest. The Ukrainian public vote, however, gave Poland 12 points, the highest possible score.

    Piers Morgan blasts Eurovision as 'rigged farce' saying ...
    Sharing the New York Post report titled, “Ukrainian band Kalush Orchestra wins Eurovision as war with Russia rages on,” the senior journalist said: “The world’s most absurd, pointless, politically-motivated ‘contest’ excels itself.”
    “Ukraine could have sent one of its heroic bomb-sniffing dogs to bark the national anthem and still won. Happy for them, but please let’s stop calling #Eurovision a contest… it’s a rigged farce,” he concluded.
    Last edited by Ludicus; May 16, 2022 at 08:33 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Thomas Piketty

  4. #4004
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    So Ludicus what exactly was Ukraine supposed to negotiate about? Its own dissolution. Being a sock puppet of Putin like Belarus. Start having rigged elections with the results the way Putin wanted? Giving up half in territory under threat of violence. demilitarizing. What fantasy are you living in? Oh wait I know the US bad and Poland and Baltic states in NATO hurt Putin's ego so stuff.

    Again Ludicus the simple fact history says no rational Ukraine would care to stay in Putin's orbit. Once more compare Poland at the dissolution of the USSR to Ukraine and which joined the EU and NATO and which one is now secure in it borders and has 6 times the per capita GDP of the other? Put hey Putin's feelings really should be important to Ukrainians.
    Last edited by conon394; May 17, 2022 at 09:16 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  5. #4005

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    Yes, of course a nation with the amount of military hardware and one of the few remaining and advanced conscription armies "doesn't care about national security".
    You have conscription just because you lack of Manpower that is why even Womans are having to serve in your Army and that "amount of military" i already mentioned something about it and how obsolote it already became with even influence of Soviet Military Design and Rail Network.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    A few mothers and their children will hardly change the security situation in Finland no matter the horrid and deplorable ideology they follow, and as should be clear this was a decision by left wing parties opposed by the parties in the opposition. Protecting the homeland is in Finnish mentality, with one of the highest percentages of people ready to defend their homeland.
    Then protect your country why you need Allies? Ukraine isn´t even in the NATO and still doing a good job and why you guys are not making some Nordic Alliance?

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    And if we want someone to blame for how that certain terrorist arrived in Europe and later Finland. I give you this country and its habit of pressuring these people over into Europe.
    Yes now we blame "Turkey" for getting under pressure from European Union to open his Borders to refugees which want to arrive at European Border while it held his South-Eastern Borders closed. Now after Turkey was willing to open his Borders we blame that country why he let the refugees passing and not stopping them. Typical western hypocrisy isn´t it? - Did ever figured out that one of these refugees wanted to arrive somehwere near Turkey or migrate into Minor Asia? Of course not but it is ok for you if they dirt into Turkish border and territory.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    And no the type of American left ideology is not as widespread as you make it out to be. In fact it is quite often openly opposed in some newspapers as dangerous and wholly unsuitable to Finland.
    First you blame Turkey with wrong reasons and you came with "American left ideology" while nobody mentioned something like that? It´s the European behaviour we are talking in that case. Most of the North Americans even reactioned Turkeys possible rejection of Finland & Swedens apply into NATO rational.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    You are spreading so much bs propaganda and outright lies. If this is the general level of knowledge in Turkey, no wonder that inflation is doing a repeat of Weimar Germany.
    No I don´t think so and i even showed you some Sources which now even don´t want to accept if they are Facts on 2022. There is not a repeat of Weimar Germany and it can´t even be. How you came up to that conclusion? Those are different things and you really should refresh your knowledge about the "Weimar Republic" or Germany back in the times.



    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    I'm going to have to keep insisting.
    This is not insisting this is just grousing while lacking many backround knowledge about a Topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    You are doing everything you can to not post a source aren't you?
    You got a Source but it seems it didn´t fit into your world view... If you can´t read then is not my problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Except withdrawing from NATO military command isn't deactivating your membership. France did the same thing and only re-joined a decade or two ago. They were still considered a NATO member and would have been protected against an attack. So once again, no such thing as a deactivated NATO membership.
    Of course there is a thing and if you came up with the France thing we are getting into another Topic. It seems to be you are even lacking backround knowledge there. Removing your Troops from the Unified Command Structure is what France even Greece did back in the time and these Troops aren´t being available to the Alliance in case of War with a rival/enemy/threat. But this what the Alliance is made of being, that many different Members with their Military Resources acting together and not alone. If you want to keep yourself alone then you don´t need aligment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    So you have evidence that the YPG allows ISIS members join? And you have evidence the YPG supports Russia over Ukraine? Lots of claims with no evidence you are making.
    I don´t need to have a evidence on my own since those are have made been by the so-called officials of "YPG" or "SDF" to the public. Ah no you didn´t catched that? How it comes...
    Last edited by Nebaki; May 16, 2022 at 01:18 PM.

  6. #4006
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    .Obviously, Russia is unlikely to declare defeat and retreat, Putin is much more likely to escalate.
    Obviously Russia wasn't going to invade, until they did. Obviously Putin was going to win the war in a week, until he didn't. There is a new political and military calculus, its not obvious any more what he will do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    American strategists say the risk is less than 1%, but living thousands of miles away from Europe, they feel comfortable dealing with this eventuality.
    Well the American strategists have handed Putin his arse so far in this conflict, I'm going with their assessment over my own previous incorrect assessment, and yours.

    The only person who can tell if the Russians will nuke Ukraine is Putin. There's a 100% chance its his decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Negotiations could have averted the war at the start of the year, Diplomats & experts: negotiate, or expect 'drastic escalation ... but Washington rejected, In responses to Russia, US stands firm on who can join NATO ...and here we are in a situation that has no satisfying answers.
    Well we had a satisfying answer in January, Russia said they wouldn't invade. We don't need satisfying answers, we need Russia to GTFO. The US didn't repeatedly invade Ukraine, they didn't peel pieces off and steal them, they didn't bomb Ukrainian cities to dust. Ukraine isn't some paradise, but its a sovereign state, and if we allow imperial powers to invade neighbours and steal stuff we are back before WWI again.

    NATO is an alliance against Russia which is a nuclear power intent (as was its predecessor state in the USSR) on territorial expansion at the expense of neighbouring states. Why would an anti-Russian alliance allow Russia to dictate its membership? American strategists correctly predicted the invasion could be stopped. maybe they have correctly predicted the Russians cannot dictate NATO membership?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Meanwhile, if the US Senate approves the additional 38 or 40 billion to help Ukraine, when added to the 3.6 billion Congress approved in March, would push American aid to Ukraine above 50 billion.The total add to Russia total aid to Ukraine will almost equal the entire military budget of Russia."According to McConnell, "helping Ukraine is not an instance of mere philanthropy, it bears directly on America's national security and vital interests”.
    Obviously, we are aware that this is not true; it’s not true that the Russia -Ukrainian war “bears directly on America's national security”. ...
    Obviously they think it does. States invading neighbouring states and stealing territory unilaterally is Mussolini tier ****-****ery. It happened already in 2014, this time Putin got his teeth kicked in. Its in the US' strategic interest that Russia doesn't eat his neighbours as he has been doing for years now.

    This isn't Putin's first rodeo, he has done this before and if he is not stopped I think its obvious he will do it again. Not that I'm an expert but it looks like Finland, the Baltic States and Sweden also agree. Its in their interests to join NATO too, according to them. Does Putin get to nuke them for free too?

    How many more annexations will it take before a country is allowed to fight back instead of "negotiating" a surrender of territory to an aggressive invader? It was wrong when the US did it in Iraq and its wrong now.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  7. #4007

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Putin
    As for the expansion of NATO, including through new members of the alliance which are Finland, Sweden — Russia has no problems with these states. Therefore, in this sense, expansion at the expense of these countries does not pose a direct threat to Russia.
    Putin’s bluff was called and he completely folded. Apparently NATO expansion is no longer a threat to Russia. Tankies on suicide watch. Let this be a lesson to the Neville Chamberlains in western circles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".
    “Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty…Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” - God Emperor Teddy

  8. #4008
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    It was wrong when the US did it in Iraq
    Well to be fair the US was not aiming to overturn an elected government nor claim part of Iraq no dismember it.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  9. #4009
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Well to be fair the US was not aiming to overturn an elected government nor claim part of Iraq no dismember it.
    Yes that's fair enough, although google says Hussein had a "vote" or something to back up his rule.

    In a way its also irrelevant, we recognised him as the ruler and his party as the state for a decade or more. We recognise a lot of people as legitimate rulers when they don't have fair elections, eg King Salman, Joe Biden, the Fat Orange, the Pope.

    There was definitely talk about dismembering Iraq, forming a Kurdish state etc. but the US realised it was a stupid idea, thank goodness. Google says it was Biden's idea. Maybe senility has improved his judgement?
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  10. #4010

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    So as far as I can tell from recent events:
    • The Russians agreed to let wounded evacuate the Azovstal in exchange for Russian prisoners. I'm inclined to wonder if the Ukrainians intend to agree to abandon the facility if they can pull the remaining defenders out; on the one hand, rescuing the Azovstal defenders would be a morale boost in Ukraine, but on the other it would also free up Russian forces to be deployed elsewhere.
    • The Ukrainians have made a big deal out of pushing up to the border near Kharkiv, but since that area was the most extended part of the Russian front I'm not sure how big a deal it is. Most likely the Russians intend to focus on holding the eastern Donbas and the land between the Dniepr and the Sea of Azov.
    • A Russian defense columnist recently gave a rather candid description of Russia's situation on state TV. He'd previously thrown cold water on the idea of mobilization, so I have to wonder if the Kremlin is testing public opinion about accepting a less-than-desirable armistice (although I sincerely doubt much of the public cares what happens).
    • I don't actually think the Russians care overmuch about the immediate matter of Sweden or Finland joining NATO. Neither are former Soviet states, and the Russian-Finnish border has been static since 1945.
    Last edited by Laser101; May 16, 2022 at 08:25 PM.

  11. #4011
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Sweden and Finland are already heavily integrated with NATO, and chances are, even without membership, NATO would provide them with enough support so as to make them essentially unattackable anyway. As evidence of this cooperation... just spend half an hour on Flightradar watching Swedish aircraft take turns monitoring NATO's Eastern flank over Poland and Romania. They're already on the roster, and have been for a while. I'm sure Putin already knows this.

    Re the Ukrainian advance around Kharkiv... there's speculation (originating from Russian sources) that they've crossed the Donets at Staryi Saltiv. If this does turn out to be true it does bring the possibility that a Ukrainian clean out of a poorly defended Russian flank protected by a giant hydro river/lake, might actually start putting Russia's Eastern attacks under real risk.

    Although I think the Russians have already scaled things back even further and are now using Izium as the fixing attack Kharkiv previously was.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  12. #4012
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Yes that's fair enough, although google says Hussein had a "vote" or something to back up his rule.

    In a way its also irrelevant, we recognised him as the ruler and his party as the state for a decade or more. We recognise a lot of people as legitimate rulers when they don't have fair elections, eg King Salman, Joe Biden, the Fat Orange, the Pope.

    There was definitely talk about dismembering Iraq, forming a Kurdish state etc. but the US realised it was a stupid idea, thank goodness. Google says it was Biden's idea. Maybe senility has improved his judgement?
    Actually I think you letting your Biden Bias show a bit. I believe he was in the camp of some kind of strong federalism. You gotta admit a lot people though some kind of three state solution with a weak central government was a better option.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  13. #4013
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Sweden and Finland are already heavily integrated with NATO, and chances are, even without membership, NATO would provide them with enough support so as to make them essentially unattackable anyway. As evidence of this cooperation... just spend half an hour on Flightradar watching Swedish aircraft take turns monitoring NATO's Eastern flank over Poland and Romania. They're already on the roster, and have been for a while. I'm sure Putin already knows this.
    I had no idea thx for the info. When did this happen? I'll put a dollar down on 2014.

    Finnish neutrality has been a cornerstone of Baltic relations for a century. The one time the USSR nudged it they got nudged back. The Russian public may not know about it but its a huge deal that Putin trashed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Re the Ukrainian advance around Kharkiv... there's speculation (originating from Russian sources) that they've crossed the Donets at Staryi Saltiv. If this does turn out to be true it does bring the possibility that a Ukrainian clean out of a poorly defended Russian flank protected by a giant hydro river/lake, might actually start putting Russia's Eastern attacks under real risk.

    Although I think the Russians have already scaled things back even further and are now using Izium as the fixing attack Kharkiv previously was.
    More unthinkable developments. This war is crazy, its approaching Tsushima/Valmy tier stuff now.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Actually I think you letting your Biden Bias show a bit. I believe he was in the camp of some kind of strong federalism. You gotta admit a lot people though some kind of three state solution with a weak central government was a better option.
    Yep don't like him.

    You're right there were a number of idiotic ideas floated under the Cheney administration. I think creating anything like a Kurdistan, while it might be just, is also certain to create a Near Eastern war that will make the Syrian conflict look like the Third Silesian War. Anyone who suggested it should be kept away from Foreign Affairs/ State Dept whatever.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  14. #4014

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I had no idea thx for the info. When did this happen? I'll put a dollar down on 2014.

    Finnish neutrality has been a cornerstone of Baltic relations for a century. The one time the USSR nudged it they got nudged back.
    Finland and Sweden are not NATO members, but since they are countries in the northern war wing of the EU, they indirectly have the capabilities and military structuring to carry out operations in coordination with NATO elements at all levels. Already in 2002, the Berlin plus agreement between the EU and NATO included the joint use of forces by NATO and EU elements in a situation that undermined security in Europe.

    Source:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  15. #4015

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    We should all take unsourced reports with a grain of salt, but if true, it's no doubt related to this thread:

    Russian forces opened fire on Israeli jets with advanced S-300 anti-aircraft missiles as they allegedly attacked targets in northwestern Syria last week, Channel 13 news reported Monday, in what could signal a significant shift in Moscow’s attitude to Israel.

    According to the unsourced report, the incident occurred on Friday as the Israeli Air Force bombed several targets near the city of Masyaf in northwestern Syria.

    On Friday night at least five people were killed and seven were hurt in the alleged airstrike, Syria’s state news agency said. Other media in the country said six were killed, all crew members of a Pantsir air defense system who attempted to take down the Israeli missiles.
    Source: In first, Russian military said to fire S-300 missiles at Israeli jets over Syria

    Regarding operations in Syria, the Israeli military does tend to "leak" things to the Israeli media anonymously that they want published, as is evidenced by the fact that they sometimes later acknowledge the reports.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  16. #4016

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Russian Apologetics
    Can you answer me something? Was the Soviet Union wrong to resist the Nazi invasion? Should they have immediately surrendered? Is everything the Nazis did in the USSR really the Soviet's own fault for not surrendering?

    If your answer to any of those questions is "No of course not!", can you explain why the Ukrainians are wrong to resist the Russian invasion?

    I have asked many apologists these questions, but never get an answer.

  17. #4017
    Alastor's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Erdogan seems to be playing hardball alright. I still think this is not sth even he would dare to seriously risk, but I do wonder how steep his price will be. I don't really think that Sweden and Finland asking to join NATO at this point is a good step. They are members of the EU, they are protected already, so this feels rather symbolic anyway. Furthermore, abandoning their traditional policy of neutrality in the blink of an eye like this during a crisis reeks of a knee-jerk reaction and threatens to add more fuel to the fire. But however ill-considered or symbolic it may be, this symbolism seems to be a big deal for the US and NATO. Politics. How much can Turkey afford to push? Is it conceivable that Erdogan has been offered concessions by Russia to blow up the process? Does Russia even have sth they can offer Turkey that would be big enough for Turkey to covertly act on their behalf in this matter?

  18. #4018
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Negotiations could have averted the war at the start of the year
    To what end Ludicus? Russia has, like clockwork, gone to a military conflict every 6-8 years. The 2nd Chechen war in 2000, The Georgia war in 2008, the Crimean annexation in 2014, the invasion of Ukraine in 2022. Give them the Donbass today and Russia will demand Zaporozhia and Kherson in 2030, Odessa in 2038, Kharkiv in 2044, Kiev in 2052. Appeasement does not​ work.

  19. #4019
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    We should all take unsourced reports with a grain of salt, but if true, it's no doubt related to this thread:

    Source: In first, Russian military said to fire S-300 missiles at Israeli jets over Syria

    Regarding operations in Syria, the Israeli military does tend to "leak" things to the Israeli media anonymously that they want published, as is evidenced by the fact that they sometimes later acknowledge the reports.
    I heard a test pilot for the F-35 claims it's the best aircraft to take on the S-400. I'd be careful if I were the Russians. Shoot at Israeli aircraft too many times and the Israelis will conduct SEAD and
    it won't be pretty.

  20. #4020

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Since the fall of the Berlin Wall, Western foreign policy has been based on two mistaken assumptions.

    The first was that we could get the Chinese and Russian regimes to accept and embrace the liberal international order through the creation of interdependence via trade, dissemination of technical know-how and membership of international institutions.

    The second assumption – mainly practiced by the U.S. but certainly not without support in Europe – was to make the world safe for democracy through military intervention and nation building. These liberal adventures abroad have cost enormous amounts and caused human tragedy.

    This is why we need something that could be described as “Principled Realism”, a conservative pursuit of realism with a moral compass based on our Judeo-Christian values.

    The illusion that China would be committed to free markets, tolerance, and self-determination is long gone.

    On the long term, the West cannot rely or closely cooperate with countries that seek to undermine our interests and democratic institutions. If the West is to win a new Cold War-esque direct challenge from Red China, we will need to re-examine and strengthen all aspects of transatlantic cooperation as well as our cooperation with like-minded partners around the world.

    The EU, NATO, U.S., U.K. and other important democracies should form – for lack of a better word – a Western Alliance. Such an alliance must base its policies on Principled Realism and reverse the policy of integration and mutual dependence with our competitors and potential enemies.

    Finally, just as NATO is a defensive alliance essentially with the purpose of preventing an attack from Russia, we need a ‘trade NATO’ as a defensive alliance of democratic states willing to defend member states from hostile Chinese trade sanctions.

    We need to build defence, energy and trade alliances, given how on our own, we are not able to manage in the competition with Russian and Chinese imperialism. In other matters, we must once again trust the nation state and the Westphalian sovereign order.

    https://www.brusselsreport.eu/2022/0...ato-for-trade/
    Maybe dreams really do come true?
    "The multilateral momentum from Ukraine war is understandably giving fresh life to proposals like 'Nato for trade' to see just how far the Group of 7 plus powers can advance coordination on punitive trade measures, from addressing economic coercion to aligning export controls," said Reva Goujon, senior manager at Rhodium Group.

    https://sports.yahoo.com/ukraine-war...093000942.html
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".
    “Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty…Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” - God Emperor Teddy

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