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Thread: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

  1. #21
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    This has never happened even when members were "adopted" in the past. I have 27 clients. I have no armies and if i did, it would indicate a poor job on my part for picking such naive malleable clients to begin with.
    The fear was not personal. I respect 999/1000% of the TWC members. But creating a "tool" of indirect or direct influence does not keep denger away.
    You buy a gun for hunting ...or sport. Your intentions are pure.
    Another though can use that gun to kill someone.
    Is your fault? No you had good intentions.
    Is gun's fault ? No a tool does not have a desission of its own.
    Then who will be responsible for the killing?
    You are a teacher. You can understand my argument here.
    Remember that my "bad behaviur" for some members started when I asked a automised tool for awarding to avoid EXACTLY this...2-3 people that every day propose people for any kind of award no matter if theyy deserve them or not simply because they like their texts, mods ir being "friends". That is what i call "award mafia" and you may give them the bullet to their "gun" to make their task easier. With that award line they will have double benefit. They will create "followers" to suport their desisions plus they will feed their egos with more awards hanging to their avatars. Is that what we need?
    The TGC mod's Turkomanic Leaque Preview is out.

  2. #22

    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Maybe some of us (AnthoniusII, me) are being too alarmist. Probably this place (and the curia) can survive despite some citizens (one? two?) rushing in their quest to get scions / medals, and maybe thanks to this some users will finally receive the award they want (citizenship)
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  3. #23
    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Quantitative medals for patronizations. Surely the issues with that are to obvious to ignore.

  4. #24
    PikeStance's Avatar Assume Good Intentions
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    I didn't say you were only proposed for your patronisation efforts, but it was a core argument in your favour. Accusations of being disingenuous aside, what I find a bit perplexing is not objecting to the patronisations being a criterion for the Curia Service award in the past, but later insisting that a separate award should be created exactly for that kind of contributions. I still don't understand why you are so opposed to the idea of patronisation efforts falling under the scope of an already existing medal. As for the second part, I am referring the patron being actually familiar with his client and the nature of his achievements, not the size of the application.
    If memory serves including the patronization was a point of contention.
    Curia service is for services made for the Curia. Patronization is an indirect benefit. It does not "serve the Curia," rather it serves the site. Stepping in as "Curator" when no one wanted to do it and I personally did not have the time (due to starting a new job) would fit that description. Currently, serving as a censor is yet another example. The point of the award is to light the fires of citizens to actually patronize.

    The reason why i said you were being disingenuous is because you used CSA application as evidence when you knew it was a point of contention and you refer to this award as a medal hunting when this site is engineered to award members for doing stuff. It is like putting a man in the room with beer and then complaining that he is always drunk.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    The fear was not personal. I respect 999/1000% of the TWC members. But creating a "tool" of indirect or direct influence does not keep denger away.
    You buy a gun for hunting ...or sport. Your intentions are pure.
    Another though can use that gun to kill someone.
    Is your fault? No you had good intentions.
    Is gun's fault ? No a tool does not have a desission of its own.
    Then who will be responsible for the killing?
    You are a teacher. You can understand my argument here.
    Remember that my "bad behaviur" for some members started when I asked a automised tool for awarding to avoid EXACTLY this...2-3 people that every day propose people for any kind of award no matter if theyy deserve them or not simply because they like their texts, mods ir being "friends". That is what i call "award mafia" and you may give them the bullet to their "gun" to make their task easier. With that award line they will have double benefit. They will create "followers" to suport their desisions plus they will feed their egos with more awards hanging to their avatars. Is that what we need?
    Request your citizenship back, patronize these worthy people who are being left out. You wouldn't be alone. (e.g. z3n)

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Maybe some of us (AnthoniusII, me) are being too alarmist. Probably this place (and the curia) can survive despite some citizens (one? two?) rushing in their quest to get scions / medals, and maybe thanks to this some users will finally receive the award they want (citizenship)
    For every worthy member not offered citizenship, it is lost for the site.

  5. #25
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Opposed, because I don't think that the relationship between a patron and his client should be based on medal-hunting. In my opinion, the spamming of sloppy applications, where the patron is unfamiliar with his client, and which often result into flame-wars and damage the relationship of the candidate with the community, should not be encouraged. In any case, even if someone disagrees with the above, patronisations have already been recognized as a valid contribution for the Curia Service Award, so the proposed medal seems completely redundant.
    Seconded

    I didn't like this idea before and I don't like it now, so I'll keep opposing it.

    edit: maybe it would be an idea to propose an amendment of the Curial Service Award, to expand the reasoning so that it will be clear that people can be proposed for that award because of their patronizations and proposed Curial awards. No quantification anyways, that is the part of those and similar past proposed awards I never really liked.

    Awarded for serving the Curia with distinction for a period exceeding six months and/or for the patronization/sponsorship of a consistent number of new Citizens and/or Curial Awards, as voted upon by the Curia.
    Last edited by Flinn; November 29, 2021 at 09:11 AM.
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  6. #26
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    If memory serves including the patronization was a point of contention.
    Curia service is for services made for the Curia. Patronization is an indirect benefit. It does not "serve the Curia," rather it serves the site. Stepping in as "Curator" when no one wanted to do it and I personally did not have the time (due to starting a new job) would fit that description. Currently, serving as a censor is yet another example. The point of the award is to light the fires of citizens to actually patronize.
    The reason why i said you were being disingenuous is because you used CSA application as evidence when you knew it was a point of contention and you refer to this award as a medal hunting when this site is engineered to award members for doing stuff. It is like putting a man in the room with beer and then complaining that he is always drunk.
    It wasn't a point of contention. In fact, it was the most widely endorsed reason. The only objections did not concern the relevance of the patronisation for the award, but the scale of your contribution in this regard, in qualitative and quantitative terms. So, it wasn't a point of contention, but, since you yourself were unsure about whether it was or not, how did you conclude that I was disingenuous, because I supposedly knew it was a point of contention? I don't understand the reasoning.

    Anyway, here is a second example. So, besides all the concerns mentioned above and the somewhat troubling treatment of members as quantified points for medal-obtainment, it looks like that patronisations have been widely accepted to fall under the scope of the Curia Service Award. It seems much more economical and practical to update the description of the already existing medal than to create yet more bling.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; November 29, 2021 at 09:45 AM. Reason: Mega's nomination added.

  7. #27
    PikeStance's Avatar Assume Good Intentions
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    Seconded

    I didn't like this idea before and I don't like it now, so I'll keep opposing it.

    edit: maybe it would be an idea to propose an amendment of the Curial Service Award, to expand the reasoning so that it will be clear that people can be proposed for that award because of their patronizations and proposed Curial awards. No quantification anyways, that is the part of those and similar past proposed awards I never really liked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    It wasn't a point of contention. In fact, it was the most widely endorsed reason. The only objections did not concern the relevance of the patronisation for the award, but the scale of your contribution in this regard, in qualitative and quantitative terms. So, it wasn't a point of contention, but, since you yourself were unsure about whether it was or not, how did you conclude that I was disingenuous, because I supposedly knew it was a point of contention? I don't understand the reasoning.

    Anyway, here is a second example. So, besides all the concerns mentioned above and the somewhat troubling treatment of members as quantified points for medal-obtainment, it looks like that patronisations have been widely accepted to fall under the scope of the Curia Service Award. It seems much more economical and practical to update the description of the already existing medal than to create yet more bling.
    The point of the award is to encourage more patronization. Hiding it in an preexisting award that some decided to misuse in the past is not the route to go. There is no point in expanding the CSA unless we rename the award altogether.
    So to summarize the objections
    1. CSA covers it, but it actually doesn't (strange how we try to make squares fit round holes.
    2. Lower standards of applications, but there is still a vote for it. I doubt the presence of an award is going to cause citizens to lower their standards.
    3. Infighting, which already happens from time to time. Nothing new here.
    4. medal hunting, in which the entire site is based on. (Include the Award mafia in this one). if medal hunting gets more patronization, then we should be for it. The "award" did its job! It makes this argument seem silly.
    5. A new one,... it is not going to work anyway. (A very strange objection)

    How few patronization do we need?
    7 in 2021, 8 in 2020 and 2019
    I believe Adamat was the first "unique" patron in years.
    I do not get let's do nothing and hope something changes.

    Can we just try this... I mean no bad will come of it.

  8. #28

    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    People seem to have little faith in this community. There is no spamming in this forum because of medals. Nobody does anything just to get medals. If they do and they do a bad job then it will show and their efforts will be fruitless. If they do and they do a good job then that's good for the site. I find it insulting to suggest that people will spam patronizations just to get an award.
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  9. #29
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Patronization per sé without quality is gross, I guess this is the sentiment shared by the people who have opposed similar proposals in the past. It is so to me ATL, I don't think that promoting patronizations is a good thing "just because so", people is supposed to be deserving it, to begin with. Also, this is definitely going to benefit more those who have already patronized a lot of members, than stimulating new proposals in any way (the more because we are in lack of valid recipients, at the least compared to the past).
    Last edited by Flinn; November 29, 2021 at 10:31 AM.
    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22 & Socrates1984 & Kilo11 & Vladyvid & Dick Cheney & phazer & Jake Armitage & webba 84 of the Imperial House of Hader

  10. #30
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    If it passes, it isn't low quality. Something is better than nothing. Who knows, maybe even you might get motivated.
    If this medal passes all proposals from now till GED pulls the plug are going to pass unanimously because if I vote no for you you're going to vote no for me and potentially rob me of an award. Everyone is going to vote yes all the time and everyone is going to get awards. I don't want to see the Curia lose all value just so you can get a medal nobody else has.

    Who says I'm not motivated?
    Under the patronage of Pie the Inkster Click here to find a hidden gem on the forum!


  11. #31
    PikeStance's Avatar Assume Good Intentions
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    Patronization per sé without quality is gross, I guess this is the sentiment shared by the people who have opposed similar proposals in the past. It is so to me ATL, I don't think that promoting patronizations is a good thing "just because so", people is supposed to be deserving it, to begin with. Also, this is definitely going to benefit more those who have already patronized a lot of members, than stimulating new proposals in any way (the more because we are in lack of valid recipients, at the least compared to the past).
    Can we make up our minds,... Either we get a lot of bad applications or we won't get any.
    No one benefits having already done it. Honestly, I would like to stop. I could go to 30 or 40, but I would rather not. However, i cannot bear the thought of a contributing member go unrecognized. I have had citizens approach me about patronizing someone they know. I encourage them t do it. They don't. maybe a little bling would have made the effort worth wild. In this way, the award did its job. There are no drawbacks. A few bad applications is better than none.
    Anyway, every time I look around I find someone. Most of my client was discovered when people said there aren't any. I found a half dozen by being on the Modding Award committee alone. There are members right now posting, contributing, and have the right temperament to be offered citizenship. They don't need to be on staff, they don't need to release mods, they just need to be here everyday posting, contributing, adding to the vitality of the site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    If this medal passes all proposals from now till GED pulls the plug are going to pass unanimously because if I vote no for you you're going to vote no for me and potentially rob me of an award. Everyone is going to vote yes all the time and everyone is going to get awards. I don't want to see the Curia lose all value just so you can get a medal nobody else has.
    What are you talking about? Are you seriously suggesting that someone would not pass a deserving member of citizenship out of spite?


    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Who says I'm not motivated?
    We became citizens at roughly the same time and I have 27 and you have, 0. Catch me if you can?

  12. #32
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Patronus Award

    Your refusal to address the point shows that you haven't thought any of this through and are just doing it to give yourself a medal.
    Under the patronage of Pie the Inkster Click here to find a hidden gem on the forum!


  13. #33
    PikeStance's Avatar Assume Good Intentions
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Your refusal to address the point shows that you haven't thought any of this through and are just doing it to give yourself a medal.
    This is very silly accusation. I supported Mega's proposal back when I had less than 10 (which was Mega's threshold) patronages. Moreover, I have several proposals list in the OP. it isn't exactly a novel idea. Anyway, you are being very offensive in both this post and the previous one. If you have so little trust and faith in citizens, then I suggest you resign. These are the kind of posts we do not want on the site and the Curia in general. We want to be welcoming to all here. It isn't you either, previously, we have another person accused people of being "medal hunters." Really, such low opinion of people. Maybe people should stop with the negative karma.

  14. #34
    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Your refusal to address the point shows that you haven't thought any of this through and are just doing it to give yourself a medal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Constitution
    All Amendments and Decisions are considered to have immediate effect and no retroactive effect unless specifically stated otherwise.

  15. #35
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    If you think that means that no one who has currently patronized someone would be eligible for this award I have a bridge to sell you, Halie.

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  16. #36
    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    If you think that means that no one who has currently patronized someone would be eligible for this award I have a bridge to sell you, Halie.
    Why this would be applied retroactively?. The OP does not state it would be.

  17. #37
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Because contributions made before awards are passed have always counted towards those awards.

    For example, the milestone award. Are you telling me that posts made before the award was introduced shouldn't be counted in the post total? Should mods made before the Opifex award was invented not be eligible for an Opifex? What about the Legio 501st award, should we not be allowed to give that out to anything that was created before the award was? Obviously that's insane and not how it works and it wont be how it works in this case either. When you create a criteria for an award anyone who meets that criteria will receive it or be eligible for nomination (depending on how the award is distributed), that's just how awards work.

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  18. #38
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Patronus Award

    All awards are retroactive Hallie. They've always been. Example the Scriptorium medal or the Milestone Award or recent barage of 501st, most of which were for contributions made before the award even existed.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    This is very silly accusation.
    It's not a silly accusation when your reply to a valid concern amounts to "patronisation is a competition bruh and I'm leading". I overlooked the fact that you patronised 4 people I had previously rejected, I even overlooked 2 of your patrons being banned, but your recent openly cavalier attitude towards patronisation is really raising a few unpleasant questions for me.

    I haven't read the rest of your comment.
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  19. #39
    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    That would be a valid point.

    However, the proposal is worded in the future tense (after - have been - once/has been). All other awards are in the past tense, as they should be.

    The Patronus is awarded for extensive investiture in Citizenship Patronizations. The small /bronze Patronus Award is bestowed after 5 successful patronization have been obtained. The medium/silver Patronus award is bestowed after 15 successful patronisations have been obtained. The Large/gold Patronus Award is bestowed after 25 patronizations have been obtained. Once each threshold has been met, the Consul shall issue the award.
    After - Once should be 'Where.' or to simplify(I think).

    The Patronus is awarded for extensive investiture in Citizenship Patronizations. The small /bronze Patronus Award is bestowed for 5 successful patronisations. The medium/silver Patronus award is bestowed for 15 successful patronisations.The Large/gold Patronus Award is bestowed for 25 patronisations. Where each threshold has been met, the Consul shall issue the award.

    To keep it above board - 'this award shall be enacted retroactively.'

    Still think it's a bad idea.
    Last edited by Halie Satanus; November 29, 2021 at 05:54 PM.

  20. #40
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    As i can see no support so far, the proposal is already dead, so why any further.
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