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Thread: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

  1. #81
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    This proposal is very much about what has been done. Awarding patronisation does not help the site in any way shape or form and I challenge you to tell everyone how it's going to help solve any of the major issues if you believe otherwise.
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  2. #82
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    I’d guarantee the random “completely dying for a few hours up to an entire day” thing the site does every few months has probably done more harm to its user retention than literally anything the Curia has ever done in its entire existence
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  3. #83
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    This proposal is very much about what has been done. Awarding patronisation does not help the site in any way shape or form and I challenge you to tell everyone how it's going to help solve any of the major issues if you believe otherwise.
    No such award exist before and it only awards patronization from the date of implementation. So, it is not about what has been done.

    There is no way anyone can "know" if this would work or fail. The alternative is to do nothing. In which case, activity will cease. it probably will anyway.

    The growth of this site is based on the uniqueness of the citizenship. If it isn't, why do we bother keeping it. We just remove it.

    Like other awards, this is an incentive to patronize to increase member's stats as stakeholders and promote their participation beyond what it is now.

    The big issue i what is affecting the passing of this amendment.

  4. #84
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    it only awards patronization from the date of implementation.
    Unless you specifically word that to be the case I will request Hex to implement this in the exact same manner as every other award that doesn't require a Curial vote, i.e every single user who meets the criteria for the award and would like to receive it is given it.

    Only rewarding it for patronizations after the date of implementation would easily make this bill one of the worst ideas I've ever seen put forward in the Curia.

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  5. #85
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Updated the OP

    I believe I have compromise with everyone.

    Promote patronages now; 1,3,5 threshold.
    - The CSA can be used for contribution greater than 5.
    - The Loinscloth used for anything exceptional.
    - It is not retroactive.

  6. #86
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    No such award exist before and it only awards patronization from the date of implementation. So, it is not about what has been done.

    There is no way anyone can "know" if this would work or fail. The alternative is to do nothing. In which case, activity will cease. it probably will anyway.

    The growth of this site is based on the uniqueness of the citizenship. If it isn't, why do we bother keeping it. We just remove it.

    Like other awards, this is an incentive to patronize to increase member's stats as stakeholders and promote their participation beyond what it is now.

    The big issue i what is affecting the passing of this amendment.

    It will not promote activity in the slightest. The people who patronize and vote are already active. Your proposal does nothing to bring people back to the site, it does nothing to fix the user bleed, it does nothing to fix the general apathy. The number of patronizations is down because there are no users left to patronize, not because people don't want to.

    The best case scenario of your current proposal is that it does nothing.
    The worst case scenario of your proposal is that it creates a race to the bottom as people start scraping the bottom of the barrel to get medals.

    Medals or ranks for patronisations is by far the worst idea I have ever seen since becoming a member of this forum.

    There is no way anyone can "know" if this would work or fail. The alternative is to do nothing. In which case, activity will cease. it probably will anyway.
    If even you are not convinced of the merits of your own idea, why are you proposing it.

    The growth of this site is based on the uniqueness of the citizenship.
    No. Just no. The growth of this site was based on modding and community. Citizenship is part of that community side but it is not even the most important one.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; December 03, 2021 at 10:42 AM.
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  7. #87
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    It will not promote activity in the slightest. The people who patronize and vote are already active. Your proposal does nothing to bring people back to the site, it does nothing to fix the user bleed, it does nothing to fix the general apathy. The number of patronizations is down because there are no users left to patronize, not because people don't want to.

    The best case scenario of your current proposal is that it does nothing.
    The worst case scenario of your proposal is that it creates a race to the bottom as people start scraping the bottom of the barrel to get medals.
    How do you know there aren't anyone worthy of citizenship? You have been a citizen since 2014 and in that time you have never attempted to patronize anyone.
    There are non-citizens who post almost every day who have good attitude and behavior. People need to stop making excuses and start looking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Medals or ranks for patronisations is by far the worst idea I have ever seen since becoming a member of this forum.
    You seem to have it all figured out. You don't patronize because they "ain't" anyone left.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    If even you are not convinced of the merits of your own idea, why are you proposing it.
    ...The worst case scenario of your proposal is that it creates a race to the bottom as people start scraping the bottom of the barrel to get medals.
    You cannot say it won't work anymore I can say it will work. It is an incentive. That's it. The notion that people will accept lower standards for a medal while at the same time not be incentive to do so is double talk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    No. Just no. The growth of this site was based on modding and community. Citizenship is part of that community side but it is not even the most important one.
    This is actually a false assumption. The site was based mainly on discussion and content. The mods would come later. Most did come later because of the mods, but they stayed for a variety of reasons. Evidently, you never read the applications very well because many people have said. That second part is exactly right. They really got into the "house" thing in the heyday. It will all be a moot point soon enough. If we don't patronize and include deserving members, the Curia would be empty and so will this site.

  8. #88
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    I believe I have compromise with everyone.

    Promote patronages now; 1,3,5 threshold.
    - The CSA can be used for contribution greater than 5.
    - The Loinscloth used for anything exceptional.
    - It is not retroactive.
    lol no.

    Somehow even worse than before.

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  9. #89
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    How do you know there aren't anyone worthy of citizenship? You have been a citizen since 2014 and in that time you have never attempted to patronize anyone.
    There are non-citizens who post almost every day who have good attitude and behavior. People need to stop making excuses and start looking.
    I did not say there isn't absolutely anyone, I said that there are no candidates meaning the pool of potential citizens is incredibly shallow because there are so few non-citizens active on the site to begin with and even fewer who are interested in the Curia specifically because of endless prattling, rules lawyering and half-baked pompous proposals such as this one.[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    You seem to have it all figured out. You don't patronize because they "ain't" anyone left.
    Whether I do or do not patronize has no bearing on the quality of your proposal, or lack thereof to be more precise, and it's really none of your business. Here's a thought though, if you want to help improve the Curia, maybe offer patronisation to somebody who will stick around for a change.


    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    You cannot say it won't work anymore I can say it will work. It is an incentive. That's it. The notion that people will accept lower standards for a medal while at the same time not be incentive to do so is double talk.
    Yes, I can, because your idea does not solve any problem, only adds another layer of to legalistic RPG that ruined this place. The question still stands. If you are not absolutely convinced your idea is good what are doing posting it in here?

    EDIT: Just put things into perspective: it's been one week and 5 pages and you have 0 supporters and even you are not convinced your idea is good.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post

    This is actually a false assumption. The site was based mainly on discussion and content. The mods would come later. Most did come later because of the mods, but they stayed for a variety of reasons. Evidently, you never read the applications very well because many people have said. That second part is exactly right. They really got into the "house" thing in the heyday. It will all be a moot point soon enough. If we don't patronize and include deserving members, the Curia would be empty and so will this site.
    Oh God, it's the abuse of power discussion all over again.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; December 04, 2021 at 03:58 AM.
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  10. #90

    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Why would it not be retroactive?
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  11. #91
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    It is retroactive, Pike is just lying thinking it might fool someone into supporting a medal he designed for himself.
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  12. #92
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    lol no.
    Somehow even worse than before.
    Th goal is to encourage patronization, so giving something for 1 and then 3 and five makes perfect sense. It was noted by others that the CSA and Loinscloth can serve the purpose for anything beyond that. How exactly is it worse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    I did not say there isn't absolutely anyone, I said that there are no candidates meaning the pool of potential citizens is incredibly shallow because there are so few non-citizens active on the site to begin with and even fewer who are interested in the Curia specifically because of endless prattling, rules lawyering and half-baked pompous proposals such as this one.

    Whether I do or do not patronize has no bearing on the quality of your proposal, or lack thereof to be more precise, and it's really none of your business. Here's a thought though, if you want to help improve the Curia, maybe offer patronisation to somebody who will stick around for a change.
    Yes, I can, because your idea does not solve any problem, only adds another layer of to legalistic RPG that ruined this place. The question still stands. If you are not absolutely convinced your idea is good what are doing posting it in here?

    EDIT: Just put things into perspective: it's been one week and 5 pages and you have 0 supporters and even you are not convinced your idea is good.

    Oh God, it's the abuse of power discussion all over again.
    1. i am convince my idea is good. I said i cannot guarantee it will generate the amount of patronages it promises. This is true for every single incentive proposal. There is no certainty. If this is the benchmark for support, then you will never support anything incentive based.
    2. I have never patronized anyone that made any promises of being part of the Curia. The Curia is the centerpiece of citizenship. Citizenship is not about the Curia (the pace) it is about recognition and the promotion of the site. The Curia part is lagniappe. Anyone who joins with the expectations of being able to participate in the Curia has missed the point of the badge. If that was the case, then we do not need badges. If this is what you think, then this is the problem. If you see the Curia has a RPG then again, that is also a problem.
    3. If there aren't any more members worthy of citizenship then the site will become the next .org
    4. So I guess you have given up the "pettiness" argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Why would it not be retroactive?
    Compromise
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    It is retroactive, Pike is just lying thinking it might fool someone into supporting a medal he designed for himself.
    I'm personally against it, but others seem to want it. It is inconsequential. if you already patronized, then you have already did your part.

  13. #93

    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Compromise
    I don't see how its compromising at all. What concern does it address? How does it remedy it?
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  14. #94
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I don't see how its compromising at all. What concern does it address? How does it remedy it?
    As I said, it is not my preference. I would rather encourage someone who already patronized 1,3,5 or more members to citizenship to go out and patronize even more. I am guessing those that want it to be retroactively see it as unfair if it wasn't.

  15. #95

    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    As I said, it is not my preference. I would rather encourage someone who already patronized 1,3,5 or more members to citizenship to go out and patronize even more. I am guessing those that want it to be retroactively see it as unfair if it wasn't.
    So, you just throw something out there without any logical connection? That's not how compromises work.
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  16. #96
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    So, you just throw something out there without any logical connection? That's not how compromises work.
    The compromise does not harm nor undermined the proposal. I don't think anyone who has already patronized would be discouraged from patronizing by receiving an award. If someone is at 3/4 they most likely to patronize 1/2 more time to reach 5. Some with 5 or more will most likely patronize again. Therefore it makes little or no sense not to give in a little if it gains support. This is how compromise works. it is something that needs to be done more often.

  17. #97

    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The compromise does not harm nor undermined the proposal. I don't think anyone who has already patronized would be discouraged from patronizing by receiving an award. If someone is at 3/4 they most likely to patronize 1/2 more time to reach 5. Some with 5 or more will most likely patronize again. Therefore it makes little or no sense not to give in a little if it gains support. This is how compromise works. it is something that needs to be done more often.
    This is getting hilarious. I'm sorry. Not a single person here stated that this award shouldn't apply retroactively. Only Halie Satanus made an issue about it because of wording in your proposal. Yet, somehow, you try to pass making it not retroactive a compromise you're offering.
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  18. #98
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    This is getting hilarious. I'm sorry. Not a single person here stated that this award shouldn't apply retroactively. Only Halie Satanus made an issue about it because of wording in your proposal. Yet, somehow, you try to pass making it not retroactive a compromise you're offering.
    I am not sure why you are being so obnoxious about this.
    It was a point of contention and then there was this post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Unless you specifically word that to be the case I will request Hex to implement this in the exact same manner as every other award that doesn't require a Curial vote, i.e every single user who meets the criteria for the award and would like to receive it is given it.

    Only rewarding it for patronizations after the date of implementation would easily make this bill one of the worst ideas I've ever seen put forward in the Curia.
    If the normal convention to to have awards apply retroactively, then I am not going to go against that if that is what most want.

    This isn't the only compromise either. Other's mentioned that the CSA has and can still serve as an award for patronages. Rather than create more than three levels and since the CSA is already a medium award, it is far better suited for anything greater than 5 patronages. The point was give incentive to patronize. I also lowered it to 1 and 3, when previously it has been 10.

  19. #99

    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I am not sure why you are being so obnoxious about this.
    It was a point of contention and then there was this post.

    If the normal convention to to have awards apply retroactively, then I am not going to go against that if that is what most want.

    This isn't the only compromise either. Other's mentioned that the CSA has and can still serve as an award for patronages. Rather than create more than three levels and since the CSA is already a medium award, it is far better suited for anything greater than 5 patronages. The point was give incentive to patronize. I also lowered it to 1 and 3, when previously it has been 10.
    The obnoxious, and quite frankly insulting, part about this is you trying to pass that as a compromise when nobody wanted it to be not retroactive.
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  20. #100
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Pater Familias or Patronus Award

    Lets try to keep things civil please. Attack the post not the poster etc.

    Anyway, yeah, this is not a compromise at all. Almost 6 pages in and not a single person has supported your proposal, Pike. Everyone else has already agreed on a system that would work for them, you are the only one against that and yet you are constantly trying to make compromises between what only you want and what everyone else wants. How about trying to do whats best for the Curia instead of what's best for you?

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