Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 61

Thread: [Amendment] Citizen Role Adjustments

  1. #1
    Dismounted Feudal Knight's Avatar ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Diffused headspace
    Posts
    2,232
    Blog Entries
    7

    Default [Amendment] Citizen Role Adjustments

    Please see for current proposal status: here (vote affirmation)

    My condolences to Akar for the volume of awards, amendments and other bits and bobs that will have to be recorded at the end of term. Anyway, here's one more.

    This proposal will:
    • Solidify people's current choices of citizenship badge
    • Mandate that citizens select and retain the badge they are added to citizenship for in new patronizations
    • Adjust wording for the meaning of Civitate and Citizen as identifiable badges


    To reduce work as well as minimize impact on legacy users, this will not apply recursively. Any new groups cannot be applied for unless the user was patronized for that purpose. In consequence this does mean if someone is patronized as a civitate and wants to identify as an artifex, they should be repatronized as an artifex to be able to select either, or the patronage proposal should specify their ability to choose multiple if it is intended. Perhaps there is a cleaner way to pull this off, but for now here it is.

    Constitutional changes;
    Section 1, Article 1

    The first is that of Citizen., which members of can display one of the following badges: Members may be patronized to hold one of the following Citizen badges: Artifex, signifying modding contributions; Civitate, signifying writing, and debating debate and discussion contributions; and Citizen, signifying both or other or 'general' contributions.2 Citizens may only display the badges they were patronized for, or already hold access to except when they gain these badges through official functions such as Curial Office.


    I thank the Curia for their consideration.
    Last edited by Dismounted Feudal Knight; November 27, 2021 at 04:40 AM. Reason: last call, I think
    pesky twc socialite, wandering 'knight' and dreamer

  2. #2
    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    London
    Posts
    19,915
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: [Amendment] Citizen Role Adjustments

    I like it.

  3. #3

    Default Re: [Amendment] Citizen Role Adjustments

    Support.

  4. #4
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Nehekhara
    Posts
    16,435

    Default Re: [Amendment] Citizen Role Adjustments

    EDIT: Nevermind, Civitate, Citizen and Artifex are separate groups.

    Support.
    Under the patronage of Pie the Inkster Click here to find a hidden gem on the forum!


  5. #5
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
    Patrician Citizen Censor

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    a 7/11 parking lot with Patron and LaCroix
    Posts
    19,005
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: [Amendment] Citizen Role Adjustments

    I'm not sure I see why this is necessary.

    I don't see this doing anything to bring in new citizens.

    Join the Thema Devia Discord here
    Son, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan







  6. #6
    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    London
    Posts
    19,915
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: [Amendment] Citizen Role Adjustments

    Maybe some feel it's a bit unbecoming of citizenship for citizens to display a badge they didn't earn.

  7. #7
    Dismounted Feudal Knight's Avatar ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Diffused headspace
    Posts
    2,232
    Blog Entries
    7

    Default Re: [Amendment] Citizen Role Adjustments

    Bringing in new citizens is the objective of other proposals. This is a clarification to preserve the meaning of having separate badges for the Citizen lineup in the first place.
    pesky twc socialite, wandering 'knight' and dreamer

  8. #8
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
    Patrician Citizen Censor

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    a 7/11 parking lot with Patron and LaCroix
    Posts
    19,005
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: [Amendment] Citizen Role Adjustments

    In consequence this does mean if someone is patronized as a civitate and wants to identify as an artifex, they should be repatronized as an artifex to be able to select either
    How would that work?

    or the patronage proposal should specify their ability to choose multiple if it is intended.
    Why wouldn't people always specify that their client could choose multiple, then?

    Join the Thema Devia Discord here
    Son, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan







  9. #9
    Dismounted Feudal Knight's Avatar ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Diffused headspace
    Posts
    2,232
    Blog Entries
    7

    Default Re: [Amendment] Citizen Role Adjustments

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    How would that work?
    If they feel the need I suppose they'd redo the thread with any relevant information necessary to add that to their lineup, people would vote and that would be that. Not the quickest mechanism, but short of undoing the function of this proposal I'm not sure of a cleaner method.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Why wouldn't people always specify that their client could choose multiple, then?
    I suppose that would be their prerogative, especially if people don't tell them off when say, they add artifex to the listing when their application has zero to do with modding or Civitate with hardly any common community participation.

    Another way to think of this is codifying what began in General Brewster's esteemed terms where he sought to push users to pick a group, rather than just pick all three. But if someone wanted to force the issue it is hardly impossible, not even in this proposal which adds some difficulty to arbitrary badge swapping.
    pesky twc socialite, wandering 'knight' and dreamer

  10. #10
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
    Patrician Citizen Censor

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    a 7/11 parking lot with Patron and LaCroix
    Posts
    19,005
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: [Amendment] Citizen Role Adjustments

    Opposed.
    Last edited by Akar; November 22, 2021 at 10:59 PM.

    Join the Thema Devia Discord here
    Son, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan







  11. #11
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
    Patrician Citizen Moderator Emeritus Content Emeritus Administrator Emeritus Gaming Emeritus

    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    17,816
    Blog Entries
    37

    Default Re: [Amendment] Citizen Role Adjustments

    abstain, I see the logic but I don't see the usefulness of this change; if anything, it's very time consuming to explain to new possible citizens what's all about, adding another layer of stuff to explain won't help, at the least it won't help me
    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22 & Socrates1984 & Kilo11 & Vladyvid & Dick Cheney & phazer & Jake Armitage & webba 84 of the Imperial House of Hader

  12. #12
    PikeStance's Avatar Assume Good Intentions
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Tirana, Albania
    Posts
    12,749
    Blog Entries
    8

    Default Re: [Amendment] Citizen Role Adjustments

    You beat me to this...


    SUPPORT
    Last edited by PikeStance; November 22, 2021 at 12:16 PM.

  13. #13
    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    London
    Posts
    19,915
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: [Amendment] Citizen Role Adjustments

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    abstain, I see the logic but I don't see the usefulness of this change; if anything, it's very time consuming to explain to new possible citizens what's all about, adding another layer of stuff to explain won't help, at the least it won't help me
    Hi. I think you're a great modder I'd like to propose you for Artifex.
    Hi. I think you're a great debater I'd like to propose you for Civitate.
    Hi. I think you're a great contributor I'd like to propose you for Citizen.


  14. #14
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar hey it geg
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    4,656

    Default Re: [Amendment] Citizen Role Adjustments

    I’m confused on exactly how the patronization would work here. So all current citizens essentially count as all 3, but if someone is patronized as say, a citizen, and wanted to get an artifex after, then they would need to be repatronized? Would only an Artifex be capable of patronizing them in this scenario, or could theoretically they be patronized by any “type” of citizen despite being basically equal rank with their patron? Would grandfathered citizens be able to patronize any newer users for any citizen-tier rank they seek?

    Frankly, I understand the desire to keep things tidy and have citizens in their “proper” grouping without getting credit where it isn’t due, but this just seems like change for change’s sake and results in needlessly complicating things IMO. If it’s really that big an issue of people getting patronized for one badge then swapping to another, this probably isn’t the way to fix it as it creates a bit of a weird standard where someone needs to be nominated by someone of equal rank, and maybe citizen should be made to be it’s own specific rank in-line with where it currently is (I.e. the standard patronization process) with Artifex and Civitate being a step above requiring their own Curial vote to attain using a process outside the standard patronization.

    Badge hopping using multiple votes and requiring multiple patronage’s kind of goes against the hole point and doesn’t make much sense to me. I’m not sure if I made my position clear but I hope this made sense.
    Last edited by ggggtotalwarrior; November 22, 2021 at 10:01 PM.
    Rep me and I'll rep you back.

    UNDER THE PATRONAGE OF THE KING POSTER AKAR

  15. #15
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
    Patrician Citizen Censor

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    a 7/11 parking lot with Patron and LaCroix
    Posts
    19,005
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: [Amendment] Citizen Role Adjustments

    If it’s really that big an issue of people getting patronized for one badge then swapping to another,
    It's not an issue at all, no one is doing this.

    Join the Thema Devia Discord here
    Son, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan







  16. #16
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar hey it geg
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    4,656

    Default Re: [Amendment] Citizen Role Adjustments

    Then the proposal itself is kind of useless. There’s no logical reason for the second half of it beyond adding a ton of needless bureaucracy and create strange precedents (I.e. a citizen needing multiple patronizations from someone of their own rank to attain different citizen-tier badges) for a non-occurring issue. And even if someone is switching badges to ones they haven’t “earned”, does it really matter? It’s essentially saying that a system that says different badges are de facto different tiers of citizenship is necessary even when the rest of the constitution goes against this very concept
    Rep me and I'll rep you back.

    UNDER THE PATRONAGE OF THE KING POSTER AKAR

  17. #17
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
    Patrician Citizen Censor

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    a 7/11 parking lot with Patron and LaCroix
    Posts
    19,005
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: [Amendment] Citizen Role Adjustments

    I agree with Greg.

    Join the Thema Devia Discord here
    Son, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan







  18. #18
    PikeStance's Avatar Assume Good Intentions
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Tirana, Albania
    Posts
    12,749
    Blog Entries
    8

    Default Re: [Amendment] Citizen Role Adjustments

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    It's not an issue at all, no one is doing this.
    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior View Post
    Then the proposal itself is kind of useless. There’s no logical reason for the second half of it beyond adding a ton of needless bureaucracy and create strange precedents (I.e. a citizen needing multiple patronizations from someone of their own rank to attain different citizen-tier badges) for a non-occurring issue. And even if someone is switching badges to ones they haven’t “earned”, does it really matter? It’s essentially saying that a system that says different badges are de facto different tiers of citizenship is necessary even when the rest of the constitution goes against this very concept
    Not useless at all. It makes more sense.
    Artifex was created for those not meeting the standards of a Civitates (the original name of citizenship). The second part is referring to the Consul being in the permission group so that he/she can add/remove citizens from the all three groups.
    It is misnomer you refer to this as a tier- all are equal.

    BTW, in the past, some citizens have displayed the Artifex without any modding and it did cause a ruckus.

  19. #19
    Cookiegod's Avatar CIVUS DIVUS EX CLIBANO
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In Derc's schizophrenic mind
    Posts
    4,384

    Default Re: [Amendment] Citizen Role Adjustments

    Generally there's always a good case to make where proposals make things more complicated for dubious gain, but here I don't see that.

    Even if there's little change I'll still suport it for the simple reason that it clarifies things and makes them clearer. I also remember stumbling over the various titles wondering what they're supposed to mean.

    So I'll support.

    That said I don't like the Civitate title at all. The latin is horrible. "De Civitate" would mean "of the citizenry", so if we at the next badge change could change the title to civus that'd be greatly appreciated. And putting the grammar aside I don't see the value in the distinction between the two, whereas I do see the purpose for artifex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

  20. #20
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
    Patrician Citizen Censor

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    a 7/11 parking lot with Patron and LaCroix
    Posts
    19,005
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: [Amendment] Citizen Role Adjustments

    Artifex was created for those not meeting the standards of a Civitates (the original name of citizenship
    Doesn't matter, all 3 are equal and essentially interchangeable.

    BTW, in the past, some citizens have displayed the Artifex without any modding and it did cause a ruckus.
    Who cares? Let them, they've earned it.

    As has already been mentioned ever since Brew was Consul (and since GED requested we try limit the number of usergroups a user is in) it has been tradition for the Consul to only accept people into the group they were nominated for.

    I have been a group leader for Citizen/Artifex/Civitate for about two years and in that time I have never seen a citizen request access to a group they weren't nominated for. This is a total non-issue.

    Besides, this amendment specifically only refers to new citizens, no one who is already in all 3 groups (or 2 of the 3) is going to be removed from their groups and they would still be allowed to wear whatever badge they wanted. That means that unless the next Consul has a drastic change of heart and suddenly decided to shirk tradition and GED's request this will never become an issue that would need to be addressed by this amendment.

    Join the Thema Devia Discord here
    Son, Heir, and Wartime Consigliere of King Athelstan







Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •